Funny, I never got into the habit of taking multivitamins. But I do take 3 supplements. Calcium, Omega and a glucosamine.

If you eat a varied diet for the most part you are covered.

"No evidence of benefit", and "use to improve longevity"are two different issues.

Lucille, no need to try to parse the words. I quoted above this comment on the research findings from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine:

" there is little health rationale for the use of multivitamin supplements. "

Now news. Vitamins/supplements etc. make expensive pee and that's it. There are volumes printed on this if anyone bother's to look.

These quotes are from the actual study. Note that the writeup contains discussion about other studies, most being inconclusive and some actually showing a slightly higher mortality rate for certain diseases. But as far as this study goes, it was in fact about mortality. Non-heading bolding mine:

Key Points

Question What is the association between long-term, daily multivitamin use and mortality in generally healthy adults?

Findings In this cohort study of 390 124 generally healthy adults with more than 20 years of follow-up, daily multivitamin use was not associated with a mortality benefit.

Meaning These findings suggest that multivitamin use to improve longevity is not supported.

~~~~~~

Conclusions and Relevance In this cohort study of US adults, MV use was not associated with a mortality benefit.

~~~~~~

Conclusions

In this cohort study of 390 124 US adults without a history of major chronic diseases, we did not find evidence to support improved longevity among healthy adults who regularly take multivitamins. However, we cannot preclude the possibility that daily MV use may be associated with other health outcomes related to aging

food, ask seniors who take multivitamins why they do so. As a tool to contribute to longer lives will be cited, in my experience. Many studies have been done, hundreds of thousands of people and milions of life-years, with no positive evidence.

The absence of a positive finding for a focus effect is nothing more than that, which is why the limiting caveat you cite at the end of your comment was included. There no evidence against it, but no evidence for it. Which leaves the question unanswered, but not open to speculation as many tend to do.

To include the full quote from the Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine representatives:

" Considerable evidence now shows that, apart from the aforementioned roles for vitamin supplementation (added here by me, to treat specific deficiencies and conditions), there is little health rationale for the use of multivitamin supplements. Micronutrients come most healthfully from food sources. When supplementation is required, it can often be limited to the micronutrients in question. "

My thoughts now.

From the quoted comments in the OP:

“Micronutrients come most healthfully from food sources. When supplementation is required, it can often be limited to the micronutrients in question.”

This is interesting to me. What I’ve often heard questioned is if there is any benefit to taking supplements, or if the micronutrients are only effectively used by our bodies through our natural diets. But the second sentence does allow for the benefit of supplementation, even if they’re limiting it to target nutrients.

Health is a cumulative result of lifetime factors. Sure, losing weight, eating more leafy greens, quitting smoking or drinking or drugs, etc. can all benefit us if we begin today. But it’s not the same as if we lived this way our entire lives. It’s easy to say that a healthy, balanced diet will give us all the nutrients we need. But how many actually break down their diets to ascertain that they’re getting, on average, the recommended amount of every nutrient the has an RDA attached to it?

I know my diet isn’t perfect, but even on a good day I have no idea how healthy it supposedly is. I have no idea if any of my shortfalls risk negatively mpacting my life. I don’t know how much of MV’s are absorbed by my body when I do take them. I’m not surprised that so many studies are in inconclusive. There are so many factors! The most basic, is the subject taking MV’s to try to offset suspected or known deficiencies, I.e. someone with poor lifestyle habits, or a health nut whose choices alone make them healthy?

I guess I’m not seeing much harm in taking them. And I don’t see benefit being convincingly ruled out, even if it’s not been proven to help.

There are a number of common and frequently used supplements (what's sold over the counter are completely unregulated and uninspected for wholesomeness and content) that can be dangerous. The first obvious risk of supplements is people self-"prescribing" and self-dosaging what they take, in ignorance of what's known for safe levels. Medical problems from such practices are not rare and their prevalence contradicts your comment that there's no harm done.

" And I don’t see benefit being convincingly ruled out, "

That's not how medical research works. If no benefit is found, that's the stopping point. They don't need to eliminate any or all possibilities. One possible consequence has been investigated in multiple studies, no positive effect was found. Done

Multivitamins might be useful to treat stuttering or fear of darkness as extreme examples - these as any and all other possibilities haven't been explored.

I could have bet I would see the two of you going at it when I opened this thread. 😂

Elmer, you always say to leave things to experts, ask the doctor, etc. I wondet if tue medical care we receive is as evidence-based as you would like to believe:

Frakt cites an analysis bythe British Medical Journalthat revealed "a great deal" of treatments that are covered by private insurers and public programs are not evidence-based. According to the analysis, which analyzed evidence for thousands of medical treatments, there was "evidence of some benefit" for slightly more than 40% of the treatments, while about 3% were ineffective or harmful, and 6% were found to be unlikely to be helpful."

Further, "a whopping 50% are of unknown effectiveness," simply because "[w]e haven't done the studies," Frakt writes.

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2019/08/27/treatment-evidence

Going at it? Not hardly.

Yep, I’m not passionate about MV’s. They’re tasty so I eat them. 😂

The practice of medicine, like many other unrelated professional practices, is a combination of art and science. Professionals learn things along the way, find things they weren't looking for, develop their own preferences etc. An example - there are dozens and dozens of prescription drugs that are very effective in "off label" applications that were happened upon inadvertently. I take one such drug, developed, tested and approved to treat one condition, that turned out to be an unexpected game changer when used for a completely different condition. When drugs get approved and found safe for human use, doctors are free to use them for whatever they want. Never carelessly or randomly, usually based on experiential knowledge that's publicized.

What a doctor does based on his/her profession's knowledge and experiences should not be equated to decisions and practices of Joe and Judy Public who self-administer supplements in a complete void of knowledge about what they're doing.

While we're at it, The Atlantic had a recent article dismissing the effects of Vitamin D.

"But sunlight in a pill has turned out to be a spectacular failure. In a large clinical trial that began in 2011, some 26,000 older adults were randomly assigned to receive either daily vitamin D pills or placebos, and were then followed for an average of five years. The study’s main findings were published in The New England Journal of Medicine in 2018, and additional results were released in the same publication two years ago. An accompanying editorial, with the headline “A Decisive Verdict on Vitamin D Supplementation,” noted that no benefits whatsoever had been found for any of the health conditions that the study tracked. “Vitamin D supplementation did not prevent cancer or cardiovascular disease, prevent falls, improve cognitive function, reduce atrial fibrillation, change body composition, reduce migraine frequency, improve stroke outcomes, decrease age-related macular degeneration, or reduce knee pain,” the journal said. “People should stop taking vitamin D supplements to prevent major diseases or extend life.”

PS to food - if you like the taste of candy flavored vitamin gummies, there are other kinds of gummies you can buy that you might also like.

I tried to find the Atlantic article on Vitamin D but couldn't. I'd be interested in knowing where the subjects of the study lived and what the study was measuring. It;s always been suggested that those who live on either side of the 49th parallel take a Vitamin D supplement as we don't get enough sun to boost the immune system. The supplement certainly won't help with SAD.

As for taking a multivitamin - if you're taking it to increase longevity hopefully you're doing a whole lot more than just relying on a pill. I take it to fill in the gaps. And I take my Vitamin D For those gloomy days from October to May.

Link to the article by clicking on ”article” in the first sentence of my post. Not sure why GW changed the font used to highlight links. A significant part of the study was done on Australians.

It seems that, unless you have some particular need for something in particular that you should just strive for a healthy diet.

It is a bit frightening to think of all the stuff that might be in those bottles! There is no evidence that if does any more than produce another small bottle to dispose of.

I have read that many of our prescription drugs are not a whole lot safer in that regard. Just look at the recent problem with eye drops used for glaucoma. You would think that they would at least be sterile.

I have a friend who was having some medical problems and she got involved with some online entities that had her purchasing some magic water of some kind and practicing some disciplines and routines that she had to report back to them about and that created the idea that she was doing something comprehensive and positive when what they were actually were selling her had no credibility and at a monetary price that came dear for her. What a scam it was! She had no idea what was in that bottle . She knew what they claimed was in it but she had no assurance of it. And to have the client be under a regimented disipline set by them, deepened the idea that it was valid. I felt it was so transparent and manipulating!

She would message with someone at the company who claimed to have had the same problem and now works for the company because she was so impressed with how she was cured that she wanted to work for them! Yes, an old tired ploy that still pulls in the suckers! And, my friend is an educated professional , a therapist, herself. One who leads others through theri problems! Makes you think twice about that, too. It can be just as full of snake oil salesmen as the vitamin/supplement industry.

As a professional she has her own brand of treatment that she tried to market. That did not work out well for her, despite the investment that she made in it. That, in my opinion was full of nonsense, too. All of those seminars and accreditation that came from nefarious sources and then the investment in the equipment and technology that she invested in to do that! Now she handles a few common personal problems for folks and has enough income from it to support herself. But it is the conventional therapy that she is practicing now, and not what she invested in. She IS a liscened therapist but also full of a lot of judgmental opinions and I think that she dishes this out a lot and her clients respond to it as professional advice. I have known her for decades and I know her judgmental opinions and how she is free with them. I never tell her that I think that she is wrong because she never asked for my opinion.

There is much deceit and there are desperate people with desperate problems. That is nothing new.

One thing that I find puzzling about some of these things in a bottle is how people would belive that this bit of herb or whatever does such amazing things, yet the pharmacuticals have not picked up on it and marketed it and corraled it into something that they can get insurance companies to pay for and can market and control the price of. Or, maybe they have . Maybe this the way to get around all of that pesky over sight and just make a profit from millions who think that they are clever to have found this miracle thing that EliLIlly over looked! Maybe it is like the LIndor balls at the cash register in that each one is inexpensive but if the company can easily create a steady market, it can turn an easy profit. To bring a product to market that did not require proof of anything can make it much cheaper to sell.

You dont know who made it and you dont know who really is behind the marketing of it. Maybe, you think, possible?

Our local organic food store used to sell "maple tree water", touting all means of good benefits. I tried it once just to see what it tasted like ........just like what you'd think a tree would taste like. :)

One thing that I find puzzling about some of these things in a bottle is how people would belive that this bit of herb or whatever does such amazing things, yet the pharmacuticals have not picked up on it and marketed it and corraled it into something that they can get insurance companies to pay for and can market and control the price of.

Unfortunately I can only read the beginning part of the article.

From above “Vitamin D supplementation did not prevent cancer or cardiovascular disease, prevent falls, improve cognitive function, reduce atrial fibrillation, change body composition, reduce migraine frequency, improve stroke outcomes, decrease age-related macular degeneration, or reduce knee pain,” the journal said. “People should stop taking vitamin D supplements to prevent major diseases or extend life.”

This isn't what Vitamin D (from the sun or a pill) does. So why would people take it for this. I wish I could find the entire article.

Anyway, I;m not going to find any answers here.

Hey - Colored links are back! Yay!

@blfenton - Atlantic articles may still be accessed using 12ft.io

...what's sold over the counter are completely unregulated and uninspected for wholesomeness and content...

This statement is patently false.

I view mortality studies as relating to public health in general. Interesting, but not always relevant to me. There are too many factors at play for individual health.

Neither of us had ever particularly been vitamin takers - for the most part we ate a varied and healthy diet. Late one summer my endo checked my Vit D levels when I was tanned beyond bronze (used to really overdo it with the tanning as did DH, we can both darken to a somewhat surprising color) and she found mine low. Low enough she asked me to begin supplement which I did. DH's next physical, his lab work showed quite low Vit D. His doctor hadn't mentioned it. I had him begin the same dose recommended to me by my doctor and we've continued it all these years. And have never tested low again.

We have begun a daily multi now. Life can sometimes get in the way of eating right. You'd think at our ages and retired we'd have fewer pressing responsibilities but that isn't the case and we have more. I know we dont always eat well, sometimes choosing simple and fast over fresh and healthy.

DH is not good about taking a tablet of any kind. I buy the fruit gummies and we almost have to remind ourselves they are a vitamin, they taste that good. I'd been buying a brand name then found the Costco generic no different in stated amounts or taste. Will they extend longevity? I hadn't really thought of them that way, my hope is more that they keeps things working normally on a daily basis and that we continue to enjoy good sleep and some energy.

I know we get plenty of calcium without supplementing. We like dairy including daily milk almost to the point of silly for our ages. In fact, I just had mine checked with an endocrinologists bloodworkup and its great - no calcium supplements in decades in this house.

I think last time we had a vitamin thread here someone came up with the phrase 'cheap insurance'. Here is a thread started by Zalco, who was thinking of 'a little extra insurance': https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5952039/favorite-vitamins#n=41

If the experts say no benefit results, why would people with less subject matter insights believe it valid to contradict them and think they know better?

This article is 15 years old but I doubt the numbers have fone down to zero, a complete 180 for those practicing this ”combination of art and science.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714854/

Yes, 15 years old. Spending the evening tonight with Google or Bing?

PS - done by nutritionists apparently, not biomed researchers

PPS- oops, an unfortunate truth. Work sponsored by dietary supplement trade association. More death by drive by internet search.

came up the other day when i was wondering what percentage of doctors recommend supplemenrs. i did try to find something more recent and better, but dodn’t offhand see anything one way or another and wasn’t going to spend too much time on it.

We do know that Lars’ doctor has recommended them. So there’s one data point. 🤷‍♀️

I still ask, if RDA’s are science-based at all, and we’re accepting that specific deficiencies can be targeted with supplements, and we assume that many or most people don’t have diets varied enough to supply all the RDA's, why wouldn't it follow thst multivitamins have the potential to add some benefit?

I don’t think many would argue the connection between the one’s psyche and physical, and at the VERY least feeling like you're trying yoir best fkr yoir body should put you in a better mental state, so why not?

But I guess my biggest question is why you seem interested in changing minds re this particular topic?

Speaking of vitamins, this article about them was just published in Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-vitamins-and-minerals-really-do-in-your-body/

"is why you seem interested in changing minds"

I don't know when or why but too many Americans have lost touch with facts. What they are, how they differ from beliefs or wishes. How people can deny truths is disappointing. I raise things like this from time to time to see how open or closed minded folks are. Too bad, it's too often the second, even among those who think they're not like that.

People are sometimes stubborn in their beliefs. I’m recalling a recent conversation where a poster refused to admit that spray functionality built into toilets is commonly referred to as a bidet. No amount of evidence put forth - including, inadvertently by himself - would allow him to budge from his opinion. Did you catch that thread?

On this particular topic there appears to be a mountain of inconclusive research. Couple that with a history of medical professionals recommending supplements, and of course effective advertising, it’s little wonder that especially an older demographic as found here is comfortably stuck in their ways, whatever their thoughts on the matter may be. As for me, as long as they’re delicious and not found to be harmful I’ll happily pop a few here or there. I don’t count on them to offset a poor diet, now of course THAT could be harmful.

Sometimes stubbornness manifests when people hold tight to a lack of knowledge. That's what motivated me to try to share what I knew on that topic that which others obviously didn't.

We consume our own homegrown/vine ripened fruits & veggies so it's doubtful vitamin supplements would add much of a benefit to our diet. People who eat krap, esp ultra processed "foods", may need an extra vit/min supplement if they consume a McMuffin for breakfast and a Hot Pocket with a side of Doritos for dinner.

There’s an enormous middle ground between the two, which I’d imagine covers the vast majority of our nation. I doubt the average plate of protein, starch, and vegetable comes close to being an ideal meal.

I do take multivitamins as I feel better when I do. I am deficient in Vit D so I supplement that, and I take calcium citrate with magnesium for my osteopenia. I also add ground flax seed to my food once a day to get my omega-3s which are essential (meaning your body can't make it from anything else) and which are very deficient in the average American diet.

food, I think another widely held view of medical and nutrition experts is not only that attention to eating a balanced and varied diet is more healthful in general but also provides all and more easily usable essential vitamins and minerals than obtained by taking supplements. Lots of reasons to go that route.

The Scientific American link just says that the human body requires X vitamins and minerals -- not that we need to take supplements containing them. And that is if the supplements actually contain what they claim to contain, and in sufficient amounts to matter. (To avoid complaints or lawsuits, manufacturers have been known to put very small amounts of the purported vitamin IN their nostrums. "You couldn't have had the bad reaction to our product that you claim because the amount in it is miniscule.")

It's also impossible to measure the psychological benefit of taking any 'medicine'. "Take two aspirin, and call me in the morning."

I could argue that the existance of supplements 'helps' due to the psychological effect, or that it is damaging -- if people think they are 'covered' and don't need to eat well, exercise, etc.

I take B12 and D3 on the advice of a specialist in the amounts advised. I cant say I notice anything but my blood work improved. I believe the issues with multivitamins has always been is there enough of any particular vitamin in them. I remember that being the quibble way back in the 1970's when they first started picking over the subject. I dont know if that was ever really addressed anywhere. Still if you want to take them and can afford them then why not? Or not as the case my be. For me the big irritation is lack of oversight as to what is in supplements. What brand do people here trust?

No inspections, no pre-approvals and no testing that what's on the label is what's in the products. Kinda like mystical faith healing some religious sects espouse.

I am a firm believer in supplements as so far they are working for me. In 2007 a surgeon told me to start taking glucosomine 1500 mg. per day. i was having pain in my knees, and wrists when doing outside work such as weed whacking. i have been taking it every since with hardly any pain at all and that is just once in a while. i try to walk as much as i can too.

My bone density tests were not doing real well and my doctor put me on Fosamax which i quit after developing side effects. I started on calcium 1200 mg. a day and so far my bone density test results are doing ok. :)

Wonder why my physician "prescribed" calcium when I broke my fibula? Hmm. And I consume plenty of calcium. Had to cut back on my milk drinking to lose weight. Butter, potatoes with skin, yoghurt, cheese, leafy greens, nuts/seeds... Um, yep! I absolutely would never lack on calcium. Nothing wrong with boosting, even if you're doing a fine job.

Rob333, all i can say is that they seem to be working for me and i will continue taking them.

rob333, all i can say is that they are working for me so far and i plan to continue taking them.

marylmi, the earlier conversation had to do with people's self-diagnosis and self-administration of a diversity of supplements "they" decide they need. What they do, and whether what they take does anything, are chosen and assessed by amateurs with nothing more than faith or hearsay to lean on.

Taking specific nutrients as advised by a medical doctor for a diagnosed condition is something entirely different. I myself take a vitamin but it's in prescription form. Said the doc, an approximate quote, "What I want you to take is available over the counter but heavens knows what's in those products. A prescription for the same item costs a bit more (actually, costs me nothing) and there's certainty what and how much is in each tablet".

I haven’t read through this whole thread, but I will point out that Calcium is a mineral, not a vitamin.

Don't "multivitamins" have some minerals too?

Elmer, any that I’ve used contain minerals, clearly listed on the bottle with the daily value percentage.

Yes, I know. I was responding to chinacat.