I think for a very small kitchen, a library ladder will be clumsy and inefficient. I think you'd be better off getting a tall folding step ladder that you can put away in a utility closet when not in use. Something like this with 3 or 4 steps would probably be all you need: https://www.amazon.com/HBTower-Anti-Slip-Convenient-Handgrip-Lightweight/dp/B087279HM1?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A2RI75E9DAKY3F

When you said your ceilings are "rather high", how high are they? Just trying to determine how tall of a step ladder you'll need. My ceilings are 9' high, and to get to the top shelves of the cabinets at the ceiling, I need a 3-step stepstool. When looking at stepstools, pay close attention to high high the top step is, because sometimes they only add a foot or so, and that is not sufficient.

There have been posts here by people who used the toe kick for a slim flat drawer to lay their step stool in. These pics are from a quick search, but there are other posts and pics online if you do a search.

Thanks for your suggestion. That was my first thought as well. Then I realized that the nearest utility closet is some distance from the kitchen, which creates inconvenience/friction that'll make those upper cabinets less likely to be used. That's why I'm trying to figure out whether there's a way to design a hide-able library ladder that can slide into a slim pocket in the cabinetry. I suppose another option is create a narrow pocket in the cabinetry to store the slimmest conventional ladder I can find. But the fold-flat metal library ladders look slimmer, and taller to reach those really high cabinets. So I think it's worth finding out if anyone has done this, or seen it done.

I agree that a library ladder will be in the way more than it'll be useful.

I've long been fascinated by these hideaway stools, which take about 4" of space between cabinets ... it'd be convenient to have the stool handy all the time. Looks like it'd give you an extra 18" or so of height. It can fold out to the left or the right, so it could serve two directions.

Another option is a pull-down shelf, though the hardware on the two sides will eat up some of your storage.

For a modern kitchen, would it be acceptable to have an attractive folding ladder that sat beside the end of the cabinet run? The Lucano ladders are stylish, and might be a nice pop of color if you go with the orange or red version. https://www.niwaki.com/lucano-3-step/#P00098-3

You could also do something like this for the step ladder. Build in a cabinet door on the side of your fridge cabinet to hang your stepladder.

Diamond Vibe: Utility Organizer Cabinet · More Info

We have 9' ceilings in our home and our cabinets go to the ceiling. I have a step ladder in the laundry room which is adjacent to the kitchen so it is only a few steps away.

This is the one I've been using for 5 years. I'm 5'3 and can reach the top shelves when I'm on the top step. It's lightweight (8 lbs) but sturdy and stable. There is a top support rail and the steps are 5" deep and the top step is deeper so I feel safe when I'm climbing up and down while carrying a box or vase.

You mentioned a tall, slim nook - when this is closed it measures 16.5 x 5 x 52.5" - so you'd need a space about 5 1/2 or 6" wide to store it. It also comes in other heights.

https://polder.com/products/3-step-ultralight-step-stool?variant=19112715452505

Chances are you have some items that are not used often, which could occupy the top shelves and make the trip to get the taller step stool less of an imposition. For the vast majority of things, a 2-step stool would be sufficient - especially if you adjust your shelves so that taller items go on the top shelf, making them easier to reach.

I had a little folding step stool that fit perfectly under the sink. It was all I needed (I'm 5'4"), but my cabinets only went up 8 feet.

@Susan Lewis, don't you just love it when you have a concept you love but need advice to execute, but all you get are suggestions to do other things and arguments declaring you don't really want the right thing? Haha, human nature and well-meaning I'm sure! Our posters sure have made me aware of many options I was completely unaware of! Thanks all! 

So I've never done this but I had an idea. Imagine where the ladder is going that you have a stack of shelves spaced exactly the distance you want between the rungs of the ladder. Now make them shallow enough that you can store the ladder in front of them. Now put a cabinet door in front of the ladder when in storage. That way nobody sees the ladder or storage unless the door is open, and you don't have to move the ladder to access things on the shelves behind. To use the ladder, open the cabinet door, pull out the bottom of the ladder, slide it over on it's rail. Because of the cabinet door it will only slide one direction, so place it at the end of a run. There... Is that closer to what you meant to get? By the way, how tall are your ceilings?

I still do not know how high your ceilings are and that will drive the best choice for reaching the high cabinets.

The point of any kitchen with high, out of reach storage, is that the out of reach be more INFREQUENT need. No matter it is small or huge.

Post your layout......with detail all walls, window cabinet plan etc. Pulling any ladder or step stool out even three times a week? I'd consider that a royal pain. ......and daily? OOTQ!

Post what you're planning : ) The best locale in near enough......when needed, as not needed as you can make it. Also as SAFE a climb when you do need to climb- sans marring and banging up the cabinet in front of you.

How about a system where the ladder is detachable and you can store the ladder in/on the end of your cabinet (broom closet)?

I would be concerned using a tall ladder with very narrow steps to move items up and down out of the upper cabinets. It would be a fall waiting to happen for me. The folding step stool with wide steps is a much safer solution.

OP here. I had already considered most of the alternative suggestions people are making, and there are good reasons I’m asking about hide-able library ladders instead of those other alternatives. Ceilings are too high (almost 10 feet) for 2-step folding stools that could fit below a counter or in a toe-kick cabinet; no closet anywhere near kitchen to store a 4-step folding stool/ladder; fridge right next to door so can’t store a 4-step folding stool/ladder alongside it, etc. I’m aware that the idea is you put less used things in the high cabinets, but the point is, in a kitchen this small, even those upper cabinets will have to be used more often, so I’m looking for the least PITA way to get to them given the constraints of the space.

There is one alternative idea suggested that may work: pull-down shelves. Does anyone have these in very high shelves of upper cabinets, so that they pull down in front the bottom couple of shelves in the uppers? How well do they work? I could see putting those in the topmost shelves of tall upper cabinets and maybe being able to reach the handle to pull them down from a 2-step stool, which could realistically fit in the kitchen. And, by the way, I’d still love to hear from anyone who has or is aware of a hide-able slim library ladder solution.

For many years we stored ours next to the refrigerator; fridge was 32” and enclosure was 36” and it worked perfectly. We recently replaced the refrigerator with a 36” model so had to relegate the stepladder to the bedroom closet, which was a bit sad. You might consider adding 3” to the refrigerator cabinet for the ladder to live there permanently; that will take up less space than a nook. If you are doing custom cabinets, one thing I‘m very glad I did with our stacked cabinets was to size the cabinets and shelves based on my reach—the lower level of cabinets are designed so that I can reach all shelves without the ladder. We use the upper level for less frequently used things. That’s worked well for our small kitchen but our ceilings are only 9’.

@bowmeister68 That’s a nice option. I have a 4-step folding ladder that folds to about 2.5” thick, so that kind of very narrow pullout slotted in between the fridge and the pullout pantry shelves could be a nice way to store it in reach without sacrificing too much space in the kitchen. Might even work to put pullout shelving for small things like spices above it.

Susan Lewis, don't you just love it when you have a concept you love but need advice to execute, but all you get are suggestions to do other things and arguments declaring you don't really want the right thing?

You mean, people giving you new ideas and choices?

The point of any kitchen with high, out of reach storage, is that the out of reach be more INFREQUENT need. No matter it is small or huge.

Another idea: Though I strongly prefer cabinets that go to the ceiling, with cabinets this high it might make sense to leave a space /fill in with baskets up top. This would mean you could reach up /take down the basket instead of needing to retrieve the correct item from the cabinet. Might be easier at these dizzying heights.

Yet another idea: Unless you're tall, could you bring the cabinets down a couple inches to give you a few inches more space down low?

Pulling any ladder or step stool out even three times a week? I'd consider that a royal pain. ......and daily?

Agree. In addition to the need to get up to those tip-top cabinets:

- Do you have any options for adding storage in a nearby dining room?

- Have you purged items you can do without in this small kitchen?

It would be a fall waiting to happen for me.

Now that we know we're talking about 10' ceilings, yes. Wider steps are safer.

There is one alternative idea suggested that may work: pull-down shelves. Does anyone have these in very high shelves of upper cabinets, so that they pull down in front the bottom couple of shelves in the uppers? How well do they work? I could see putting those in the topmost shelves of tall upper cabinets and maybe being able to reach the handle to pull them down from a 2-step stool, which could realistically fit in the kitchen.

They're sold on Amazon, so that's a place to find some reviews.

If you go this way, it'd be smart to get the pull-downs before the cabinets are made /have the cabinet maker build the cabinets so they'll waste as little space as possible with the pull-down hardware.

If you're thinking of standing on the stool AND pulling down the cabinet insert, you'd definitely want the wide steps. You'd need a sturdy platform from which to work. From this position, would you be able to set things down on the counter safely?

You might consider adding 3” to the refrigerator cabinet for the ladder to live there permanently; that will take up less space than a nook.

Alternately, go with a slightly smaller refrigerator so you'll have space to slide that ladder in.

IMO a tiny kitchen with10' ceilings is going to already feel like a tunnel so i think a cople of pics of the space might help post them here in a comment so we can see exactly what the space is like,

Just noticed you had already ruled out storing the ladder next to the refrigerator because there wasn't enough room there--so you can safely rule out all of the narrow pullout and nook options along that wall, too, since those need even more space. Your best bet is likely to explore horizontal storage in a toekick cabinet or to go to a narrower refrigerator to free up enough space to either put it alongside the refrigerator or in a freestanding pullout or nook next to the fridge. If you have a 36" refrigerator planned, for instance, you can go down to 30" and look at some of the taller models that will use the height you have so that you don't lose much capacity overall. Freeing up 6" will give you enough space for any of those options. (Tougher if you were already planning for 30", though.) If you integrate the space directly into the refrigerator cabinet, you can probably get by with 3" for a very narrow ladder, and look at slightly wider models.

NYC apartment dweller here and 100% understand the need to run cabinets up to the ceiling and access that space. Here are ideas for accessing objects up there you only use every once in a while:

1. Do you have a coat closet near by that you could stash a super slim folding ladder in and carry it out to your kitchen when needed? I investigated ladder that could live on a hook on the inside of my closet door. However, I really need that space for hooks to hang coats and bags.

2. Keep a slim folding ladder under a sofa or bed that you take out once in a blue moon. There are some super slim, extremely expensive, and beautifully colored ladders on the market.

OR

3. I now only keep soft items up there like bags of popcorn, crackers, paper towels. I stand on my tip toes with long tongs in my hands and put away and get out things that won't hurt if they fall on my head. I'm pretty tall so this works. But you could also do it with a grabber that they use to stock supermarket shelves.

@Susan Lewis while I have seen pull down shelves and that may help for some spaces, I think they will not be acceptable 10' up. I went to the stories section of Houzz and searched for "kitchen ladder" and found a few stories including this:

https://www.houzz.com/magazine/aim-high-what-to-know-about-adding-a-library-ladder-stsetivw-vs~31700579

I suggest you do a similar search and read what you can for ideas  But I think after hearing all the alternate ideas that a kitchen ladder is right for you. At this point, I think you need to find local contractors, ask them out to your kitchen, have them describe how they would tackle the job, and for bids. Don't let them get away without providing technical details. Make it clear that without those details they won't get the job. Go with the one that sounds like they know what they are talking about. You seem intelligent enough that I trust you will know a good idea when you hear it.

@Ms Pete you always have great practical ideas that I find eye-opening. They often are based on real-life experience. That's why I follow you.

I used to do Xmas decor for clients, including the tree.

The REAL problem here? Is the ten feet and the fact you are using it for anything at all, beyond decorative.

How do I know? I get to the top of my cabinets to wipe down molding VERY frequently. It's a narrow galley and the ceiling is 8' . EVEN with a tall folding step ladder.....with safety handle, stored in a near closet? I often have a foot on the counter.

Nobody wants to hear it, op or posters. USING all of that ten feet is too problematic to start. A season of climbing to top a ten foot xmas tree? That was 6 times per year. More often than that? No thanks.

Ladder or no ladder...............it's not a good plan.

You can beat on me: ) but it isn't practical in any way.

@Kendrah Good point about tongs / long-reach grabbers to handle light items on high shelves. They’re how I manage the top shelves in my current apartment’s closets (9’ ceilings). And they’re less of a PITA to store and bring out to use than a 4-step ladder. So a possible solution is a combo of a two-step stool that’s more storable (like, under the sink or in a toe-kick cabinet), along with a grabber for light items up high. For other posters, I appreciate your suggestions and interest in seeing a layout of the kitchen. Unfortunately not possible yet (we’re in contract to buy the apartment and haven’t closed yet, so don’t have access—I’m just starting to think through the problems that need to be solved in the design). I understand why some are trying to dissuade me from using cabinets this high—believe me, if I had a choice, I wouldn’t do it—but in a very small NYC apartment kitchen it’s not optional. The only space I get is vertical, and I have to use all of it. Of course I’m going to do the obvious things like purging kitchen goods I don’t absolutely need and putting storage furniture wherever it’ll fit elsewhere in the apartment. BTW, for @artemis78, sorry I was unclear, I was ruling out storing a ladder in the open next to the fridge, not in a nook—a nook design for a slim library ladder is what I asked for in the first place in this thread, and the nook/pullout design @bowmeister68 showed for a slim regular ladder could be a good alternative. And @KL, thanks for the reminder to insist on getting technical details like this when evaluating contractors.

@Susan Lewis in my last kitchen I had a ladder that was part of the toe kick and slid under the cabinets. Brilliant idea but we never, ever used it. It is clunky, hard to align to push back in, heavy. I found it easier to walk into my bedroom and pull a step stool out and bring it to the kitchen than I did to use the built-in toe kick one. I now see they also have toe kick drawers where you can fold up a separate ladder and place it in the drawer. Maybe that works better than my built-in one did.

Part of toe kick - never again

Toe kick step ladder · More Info

Fits into a toe kick drawer but is not built-in to the toe kick - could be good

Old York Rd. Kitchen Renovation · More Info

Another fantastic space saver I use in our NYC apartment is an elfa item from Container Store that goes on the inside of a closet door and has baskets that you can adjust the height of. The entire thing mounts on the inside so you don't see any hardware when the door is closed.

We use one in my husband's clothes closet, which is next to the bathroom, that serves as our medicine cabinet/linen storage - it hold our travel kits, hair dryer, sun screen, bug spray, extra toothpaste, toilet paper, medication, you know all the stuff that people with big bathrooms keep in their bathroom.

We use another in a hallway closet and it has our drill, packing materials, laundry detergent and dry balls, tools. We call it "the basement".

Lastly, the Container Store sells a big lazy susan (I think it is from The Home Edit), clear plastic with sides. I fit all of my cleaning products, sponges, dog care stuff in it. It holds a TON of stuff and makes it all easily accessible.

Ok, one more - we don't use trash cans in our kitchen for our trash and recycling. Instead we use some kind of plastic storage cube I got from Target. Two fit side by side under our sink with all of the crammed in pipes and hoses. Way better fit than anything designed for trash. They are small but it is so easy to walk down the hall to the trash room and empyt it daily, it just works well.

@Susan Lewis the issue is that if you don't have room to store a ladder in the open next to the fridge because of space next to your door, you don't have room to do it in a nook either--a nook takes more space than storing it next the the refrigerator, not less. You will need to have 4.5"-6" of available linear space on that wall to fit a nook large enough to hold a ladder that folds down to 2.5-3" thick (because of the thickness of the cabinet sides). A custom cabinetmaker might be able to do a split box that can bring that down to 4" or so if you don't mind it being asymmetrical with the cabinet above it. Now, if the issue is just that you don't want to store it next to the refrigerator aesthetically and prefer the look of the nook, that's different--just understand that it is costing you space. Everything in a small kitchen is a tradeoff. A plus to putting it in a toekick drawer, IMO, is that it really isn't useful storage for anything else so you're not giving up much to put it there.

@Susan Lewis I've long been tempted by library ladders… but I've never done it because it's such a niche item and I haven't found anyone who knows how. Doesn't mean it can't be done! I'm in a similar jam, looking at buying a condo with 9' ceilings and a large for most but small for us kitchen with noplace to go (bounded by the entry door and HVAC equipment). I'm also looking to use the top 2 feet for large, bulky, infrequent item storage.

Here's a stepladder that folds down to 17" wide and 2.1" thick: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08LQT9535. This one is 3.5" thick but very lightweight and super sturdy for its weight: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KWFG1BK

Do you have any blank wall space 18.5" wide? You could have a flat cabinet built to house this ladder. Or simpler: what about hooks on the inside of the nearest closet to hang a stepladder?

If you do end up getting a library ladder, please post photos and DM me! I'll be so jealous.

@artemis78 it’s not the space: it’s that in the open next to the fridge = right next to the entry to the kitchen, where it’ll get banged into and knocked over when people go in and out of the kitchen. And yes, also, aesthetically it would be an eyesore: the entrance to the kitchen is right as you come in the front door of the apartment. If it were in the open next to the fridge the ladder would be one of the first things you see when you come in the front door. Not the look I’m going for. Believe me, I understand the space constraints and the trade offs very, very well.

@Kendrah Lots of helpful ideas, thanks! Definitely a big fan of the Container Store’s Elfa stuff.

Ladders are actually a bit safer than most step stools. Of course, wider steps are more pleasant to use, but ladders offer better hand position (chest level or higher) which gives you much more stability. We have a library with a ladder and the ceilings are quite high. It feels much more stable than the stools we use in the kitchen to reach the upper cabinets. However, you only want to put things in the upper cabinets that you can comfortably carry with one hand... ladders are made for three points of contact when climbing.

We use one of the systems that allows the ladder to be stored against the shelves (see below).

I don't really know how you could hide it in a cabinet because I don't see a way to make the roller bar die into the cabinet. You could, of course, use a hook system rather than a top roller and just hang the ladder anywhere you want when not in use.

@bry911 Greatly appreciate you sharing you experience with a library ladder vs step stool. I suspected the ladder might feel more stable, but you’re the first commenter who’s been able to offer any experience with one. I’ll check the weight of the hook system library ladders, and also think about whether there’s an aesthetically acceptable solution for dying the roller bar into the cabinet.

This ladder can turn corners on a track which could enable you to slide it to the edge of the kitchen for storage - but but hard to say without seeing the layout

https://mwe-na.com/interior-ladders/

Ah, got it--I was assuming you were putting your refrigerator into an enclosure. That would have made it easy to slide something in alongside (more or less the same as doing a nook) but of course not so much if the refrigerator is not in cabinetry. In our case we had a paneled cabinet enclosure for the refrigerator, so no one could see the ladder tucked in next to it.

I would definitely consider extending your cabinetry to surround the refrigerator, though--that would allow you to put cabinets/additional storage above it, and also give you the option of things like storing a ladder or anything else in that area without worry that someone will walk into it. The added cost was more than worth it for us for the extra storage and the more finished look, and if you go with an adjacent nook, it will look more integrated.

@Ms Pete you always have great practical ideas that I find eye-opening. They often are based on real-life experience. That's why I follow you.

Awww, thanks.

The REAL problem here? Is the ten feet and the fact you are using it for anything at all, beyond decorative.

I think up-high-high is fine for things you only use occasionally ... like Christmas dishes.

Good point about tongs / long-reach grabbers to handle light items on high shelves.

Grabbers could be a good idea ... but it would limit the things you can store.

Fits into a toe kick drawer but is not built-in to the toe kick - could be good

Toe kick drawers could be a great idea! It's not the storage you were looking for, but it's storage.

@artemis78 Fridge is not going to be in a cabinetry enclosure (of the kind that could potentially have a gap to slide a step stool into) because it’s going to be panel-ready. Which definitely isn’t about saving money, unfortunately. 😂 But it’ll be plenty integrated looking.

Just an observation for folks trying to help by suggesting putting seldom used things like Christmas dishes up high: for most NYC apartment dwellers (including me) “seldom used things” and “Christmas dishes” are categories that don’t exist in our tiny kitchens. There isn’t space for them in the first place. If you don’t use it, and use it often, you don’t own it. I’ve lived in NYC apartments on and off for a few decades now, and I’ve never met anyone with a set of Christmas dishes.

I would wait until you can get into the space and then post the floorplan with measurements--I think that's likely to get the best suggestions as far as laying out the space efficiently and still being able to access cabinets. I'd post on the Smaller Homes forum too--the Kitchens forum has lots of people designing 200sf+ kitchens (sometimes +++!) That's very different than tackling a tiny kitchen, with different tradeoffs.

I think most people in the US cannot relate to the size of the avg NYC kitchen - the average kitchen size in the US (in a new home) is between almost 200 sq feet to well over 400 sq feet

Statistics from the National Kitchen and Bath Association (NKBA):

• Overall, average kitchens in the U.S. are about 161 square feet in single-story homes and 174 square feet in multi-story homes.
• In homes under 1,500 square feet, the average kitchen is 103 square feet.
• In homes over 4,000 square feet, the average kitchen is 238 square feet.

According to the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB), average sizes of kitchens in new homes tend to be proportionate to the overall footprint of the home itself:

Homes under 2,000 square feet: average kitchen size, 195 square feet

• Homes 2,000 to 2,900 square feet: average kitchen size: 288 square feet
• Homes 3,000 square feet plus: average kitchen size 424 square feet

Just an observation for folks trying to help by suggesting putting seldom used things like Christmas dishes up high: for most NYC apartment dwellers (including me) “seldom used things” and “Christmas dishes” are categories that don’t exist in our tiny kitchens. There isn’t space for them in the first place. If you don’t use it, and use it often, you don’t own it.

Yeah, not something to which I can relate, but that doesn't make it practical to reach up to 10' to fetch down the 9x13" Pyrex casserole dish (or whatever else is a basic).

I can relate to the kitchen. I completely get NYC, certainly have enough friends there.

You can't outlive the walls. .....not easy, and why there is so much take out, eat out. Even menu adjustment as to what can be prepared in the weeny kitchen.

It is what it is, closets ......all of it.

I’ve lived in NYC, and now in the midwest and really love cabinets to the ceiling. Whatever you put on top must be easily managed and unbreakable. So, as preciously mentioned, only stock you reachable shelves with your everyday. Higher shelves can handle you plastic food storage. Higest shelves can be for lightweight items like paper towels, potatoe chips 😉, baskets, table linens. What is left over can be disbursed to family and friends who LOVE the MCM fish appetizer plate, that maybe you can ‘borrow’ when the occasion arises.
When it comes to any kind of ladder, make sure the steps are wide enough. The old fashioned kitchen stools that had pull-out steps serves as extra counter seating and ladder.

I think I would be more inclined to use that high space for out of season clothing or things I just can’t part with that are lightweight and perhaps bulky in any case if if falls on my head while reaching for it I probably won’t die.

@la_la Girl thanks for the stats! Interesting!

1. In a NYC apartment, your oven is where you store Grandma's fine china.

2. We don't need bulk Costco purchases - the bodega or hardware store around the corner have everything you want 24/7.

3. Christmas decorations? ... we're all Jewish!

@Kendrah “Your oven is where you store Grandma’s fine china.” Or your shoes. 😂

@Susan Lewis We are having the gas line replaced in our building, no cooking gas going on 6 months now. I usually cook in my oven, but since I can't now, I really appreciate the extra storage. We are using a portable induction burner in place of our gas stove and I store it in the oven.

@Susan Lewis A flat we looked at in London. I like the ladder. The kitchen is large by London and NYC standards so YMMV.

@Susan Lewis I love that London kitchen and I don't like pink! But that's part of what I love in it. It's a pretty pink, soft and not garrish. What a surprise! And I love that table and chairs. The glass allows it to be there without looking too crowded. Did you post a picture of your kitchen? I don't recall seeing it. I've seen other posters edit their original post. It would be great if you could add a photo to yours. Wish I could advise HOW. Something I need to learn to do...