Vintage Gardens, to me, is more trusted with the identity of their antiques because they continue to investigate what they have, compare to old records, and have no problem issuing their identification as tentative by placing the name in double quotes. Tammy posted pics of hers, and that is the "thornless RdV" I remember from another nursery -- dull green color to the stems, leaves wider and more rounded, tapering suddenly. Tammy first said hers had thorns, then took the pics and came back saying what she thought were thorns were merely small bumps. My band is just as prickly as a typical Gallica -- no one seeing it would remark about its "smooth canes" because they're not. That's not what I would call the same "a few thorns" as found on Tammy's band -- I can't put my finger on the stem without touching a prickle. The first reference on HMF for RdV is clearly a translation from the French (as noted by both the French title and the text's awkward English). I would much prefer to read the original and translate it myself. It's very likely that the "also the prickles of the branches" which follows a semicolon (which denotes a separation of the second clause from the first, such that it could be its own sentence if grammatically correct, and that the translation isn't makes me wonder about the accuracy of the translation) is not connected to the comment about "red stipules..." It could very well be that missing from the translation is a negative, turning that last bit into a comment about "also the lack of prickles of the branches" which is less awkward of a clause than "also the prickles of the branches." But I can't tell for sure without reading the original French. Be careful about taking an awkward translation as gospel just because it's the oldest. If several descriptions beginning merely a year later describe the plant as without (or almost without) prickles, I'd take that over the claim that the first description (as translated on HMF) is noting "red prickles" which I really don't get even in that awkward translation -- the semicolon would not be used if the "prickles of the branches" were red like the stipules. A comma would be. Also remember that considering the time for a book to come out in print during those years that close together, it's very likely that both authors were writing without seeing the works of the others. Thus the descriptions are better trusted to be based upon actual inspection, rather than copy-and-paste from other authors -- because there wouldn't have been time to read the first description and write it again in a book coming out a year or two later. Ultimately, RdV has had notes in her description over the years about her relative thornlessness. The band which I received would not be called "thornless" any more than many other roses I've seen which never acquired that adjective in their description. Sure, my plant isn't overly thorny, and its prickles are small, but they are not sparse enough for me (or anyone else seeing it for the first time) to say "my, that rose is thornless." But others seeing the real RdV over the years have. That's why I don't think this one is the "real" one, and the one I grew previously (and gave as a gift) was. :-) ~Christopher

I bought Scentimental almost 10 years ago and it has survived all the hot summers we have had recently. Oranges and Lemons did not fare so well. I think it (O&L) lasted 1-2 years only. Be advised that if your weather is similar to mine, during July thru part of September, you may notice that the number of blooms will dimish significantly and that the color in the blooms will be almost always "wrong" until the temperatures come down from the 100s. During that stressful time, Scentimental has 1 to 1.5" blooms whose color is either only bright red or a dark shade of pink. I only see one bloom or two tops at a time. Sometimes they have stripes but very few. They may appear to be the wrong rose to people who have not seen this before. If your soil is as bad as you suggest, consider growing them in containers. It may help keep some of those the large shrubs' size in check a little. Take a trip to Antique Rose Emporium (call first to see if they have a good selection of striped roses) if you want to see before buying. I have not tried hybrid perpetuals here but I have seen Reve dâÂÂOr and Souvenir de St. Anne's for sale before in my area and have Souvenir del la Malmaison (shrub) and Zepherine de Drouhin. Those are not striped roses though. Reine des Violettes did not fare well as I did not like the shrub's structure. Here is more info: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0217034631488.html?4 Luis

I find Mike's link to be useful, about epsom is ONLY best used in high-crop production, such as tomatoes on old soil: Here's a paragraph from Mike's link: "Excessive levels of potassium contribute to a mineral imbalance that causes magnesium deficiency in a variety of species, even when soil levels of Mg are adequate. High levels of soil potassium apparently interfere with root uptake of recommended to overcome this indirect magnesium deficiency; trees high in nitrogen were found to be less susceptible to magnesium deficiency than those with reduced nitrogen levels." My clay soil tested very high in potassium, next is phosphorus, and least is nitrogen. Plants short on potassium are more prone to fungal diseases. I have zero blackspots on roses, but have problems with magnesium deficiency esp. in my tomatoes, grown in the same bed for 12 years. Fifteen years ago my other garden had a different soil: no clay, just good black dirt high in nitrogen. We never had to fertilize the lawn, everything was green, but I had the worse blackspot on my roses. I have never used epsom salt on my tomato, but last year when I mixed bagged cow manure in, we had a bumper crop of tomato. This year I didn't do that, and we have the worse crop of tomato and very small fruits. I'll do an experiment next year growing tomatoes in 2 different pots, water one with epsom salt, and let's see if the fruits get bigger.

Sey, I am not inconvienced at all,no no worries there ,BUT,I have participated at many message sites such as this one , as it used to be as GW,over the years,and more recently the format has changed with respect to who posts what and for what reasons. I encourage anyone and everyone to know how to search for information for varieties, whether that be at the site in question, as here,and do that first,then maybe fetchTania's superb database,if no info there,then maybe Google a bit,and if still not enough,then try Ventmarin in France. Some of the above disagree with me on pulling up old threads and my rationale on that. I also have no problem at all with folks sharing experiences with varieties and all else having to do with growing tomatoes in a certain thread,none at all,but as to other places a thread just stops when there are no other inputs and that's that,and seldom does someone revive it. So be it. I only came here today since I got the notice sent home,and no,I'm not going to stop that from happening,and yes,I was the one who first introduced Indian Stripe and perhaps the second person ever to grow Cherokee Purple,there are many threads here already about that if one wants to do a search. I spent many happy years here but when it got nasty and someone else who was also here started a new website there was a mass exodus from here to there and now there are just a few from here who have moved there and also post. There are many new folks here that I don't know,and they don't know me either,nor what my own background is re tomatoes,which goes back to when I was 5 yo on our farm.And I'll be 77 yo this June,so many years experience and have grown 4,000 tomato varieties in the meantime and also a book I was asked to write about heirloom tomatoes,which several here already know. Now homebound and having to use a walker of course I can no longer grow the several hundreds of plants and varieties that I used to grow,but I have a local person who grows my seedlings for me,and someone else who cares for them here in the backyard, and each year I grow many new ones,since I vowed when I fell in Dec of 2004 that in my seed offer elsehwere I would try to find varieties that were new to all or most,and have been very successful at that and in the process have made many new friends in manycountries. As the Brits once said during WWII and IMO is apt here,keep calm and carry on.<G> Carolyn