Vintage Gardens, to me, is more trusted with the identity of their antiques because they continue to investigate what they have, compare to old records, and have no problem issuing their identification as tentative by placing the name in double quotes. Tammy posted pics of hers, and that is the "thornless RdV" I remember from another nursery -- dull green color to the stems, leaves wider and more rounded, tapering suddenly. Tammy first said hers had thorns, then took the pics and came back saying what she thought were thorns were merely small bumps. My band is just as prickly as a typical Gallica -- no one seeing it would remark about its "smooth canes" because they're not. That's not what I would call the same "a few thorns" as found on Tammy's band -- I can't put my finger on the stem without touching a prickle. The first reference on HMF for RdV is clearly a translation from the French (as noted by both the French title and the text's awkward English). I would much prefer to read the original and translate it myself. It's very likely that the "also the prickles of the branches" which follows a semicolon (which denotes a separation of the second clause from the first, such that it could be its own sentence if grammatically correct, and that the translation isn't makes me wonder about the accuracy of the translation) is not connected to the comment about "red stipules..." It could very well be that missing from the translation is a negative, turning that last bit into a comment about "also the lack of prickles of the branches" which is less awkward of a clause than "also the prickles of the branches." But I can't tell for sure without reading the original French. Be careful about taking an awkward translation as gospel just because it's the oldest. If several descriptions beginning merely a year later describe the plant as without (or almost without) prickles, I'd take that over the claim that the first description (as translated on HMF) is noting "red prickles" which I really don't get even in that awkward translation -- the semicolon would not be used if the "prickles of the branches" were red like the stipules. A comma would be. Also remember that considering the time for a book to come out in print during those years that close together, it's very likely that both authors were writing without seeing the works of the others. Thus the descriptions are better trusted to be based upon actual inspection, rather than copy-and-paste from other authors -- because there wouldn't have been time to read the first description and write it again in a book coming out a year or two later. Ultimately, RdV has had notes in her description over the years about her relative thornlessness. The band which I received would not be called "thornless" any more than many other roses I've seen which never acquired that adjective in their description. Sure, my plant isn't overly thorny, and its prickles are small, but they are not sparse enough for me (or anyone else seeing it for the first time) to say "my, that rose is thornless." But others seeing the real RdV over the years have. That's why I don't think this one is the "real" one, and the one I grew previously (and gave as a gift) was. :-) ~Christopher

I really want to thank everyone for all their input! I wish I had been able to check earlier but bronchitis and asthma had me sidelined for awhile. The two I ordered that are a little iffy for my climate are heirloom and hot cocoa - the two non-Austins I got from heirloom roses. I do have some very busy baby bunnies in my backyard. I bought my daughter a chocolate vine for her "chocolate garden" semi-worried it might become invasive and the bunnies have nibbled it down to almost nothing. I sprinkled garlic around it and they haven't touched it since then (but it's been a whole two days - they might get hungry enough to brave the garlic still, but I did the same thing in my veggie garden and they haven't touched the lettuce or spinach). They're really almost too small for a fence to work. they just leap through the neighbors fence at high speed like it's not even there. If I found a small enough chicken wire that might work to slow them down a little bit though. I'm thinking my dogs and friendly neighborhood hawk probably slow them down the most. The bunnies are under the neighbor's shed (yes they are fun to watch, but not eating my plants - there's plenty of dandelions to go around) and I've noticed they're not crossing my backyard, but staying as much in the bushes and as close to "home" as possible. So since the austins are going in the new "sunrise" garden which is way across my yard, past the the lab, past the ameircan eskimo, past the hawk, past the owls...those might be relatively rabbit safe and safe for the zone so I'll try putting those in the ground (and watching for bunny damage daily) and potting the heirloom and hot cocoa (just because they're borderline for the zone and will eventually end up in a more "bunny friendly" area when planted permanently). Any recommendations on whether I should overwinter them in the garage or back porch and let them go dormant or try to bring them in the house for the winter? Which have you had the most success with?

Ginger - Thanks for starting this thread. I've been reading it with interest on both the LD and this forum. I'm probably not too far from you, a bit north of Concord, NH. I live on an old farm, which currently has about 35 acres in corn and the rest overgrown pasture, much of which is good sized trees. I've got variation to my soil type and water, so that I've got hemlock, white oak and balsam fir in some areas and beech, red maple, and red oak in others, along with yellow, gray and white birch, striped maple, red and white pine. I've got 3 kinds of native viburnum, rhodora, sheep laurel, and lots of native wildflowers. At the same time, I've got bittersweet, buckthorn, and wild grape that need controlling to a degree that sometimes gets depressing (I'll probably be fighting it the rest of my days . . .) I've been concentrating on the poison ivy in areas I walk or garden first, since I'm highly sensitive to it, and then the buckthorn. I use Roundup on the PI, and a combo of pulling, brush cutting and Roundup on the buckthorn. The bear in the woods keeps me out of them during much of the warm weather, however. To the amusement of my husband and various subcontractors, I've flagged plants that I don't want mowed, run over, or otherwise abused, like the viburnum, pagoda dogwoods and a moose maple with glowing apricot winter branches. I've done some seed starting, and I bought liner trays of native shrubs to plant along the 1/4 mile of driveway into my DH's shop, including mountain laurel, swamp rhododendron, and fothergilla(sp?). That's as far as I've gotten in the 6 seasons we've been there, but I'm still plugging away. With a large area like I have, I'm trying to take it a little bit at a time, and leave much of the woods as they are for the various critters with which we share them.

I took the British Rosarian course and thought that it would be interesting to discuss or even give talks, about roses and share my love of them. What I found was that gardeners had very strict ideas on how to grow roses, and they didn't like being told something different. Here is what I figured out why they got upset. Most people have deep remembrances about roses because it was usually their grandparents that grew them. The grandparents had to do a lot more work then modern rose growers do because of the lack of sprays plus no access to any information about roses. So when a gardener grows a rose it is almost in honour of their relatives. Someone telling them that what their grandparents did is not done to-day is like a direct criticism of people they love. I only do talks in the PNW because that is where my growing expertise is. My talk in Florida could sound like gibberish. Rose growing is very controversal ,then throw in people's love of certain shape or types of roses and you have the making of an argument. Then throw in the type of books you get telling you how to grow roses ( only book that donates a white chapter to pruning), and it gets even more complicated. A whole chapter to pruning a plant!! I wonder how many gardeners have carefully read and re-read the chapter, stepped in front of a rose with their clippers in hand and broke down into uncontrollable weeping.The controversy that floats around roses is never ending. Now stepping down off soapbox.