Ok, same process, different medium. They probably use waste product from mining. Curious about this For a variety of reasons. I have used my broken Bisqueware Mainly to get rid of it but Also for a similar result. I mainly used it in Potted plants. This might be something that works deep in the bottom of a hole since It will absorb moisture but will never Dissolve into clay once heated nor bond with the soil to form a concrete-like mass.

What I used is probably calcined clay since it might have been fired to lower temperature. Being Bisque.

https://www.advancedturf.com/resources/calcined-clay-vs-expanded-shale-resources-advanced-turf-solutions-inc/

Vaporvac: Thanks for the above link. I'll look for such products to fluff up my heavy clay. Do you grow roses on Dr.Huey-rootstock and what are your best roses in partial shade, thank you for your feedback in the new thread I started:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6111804/soil-ph-soil-type-moisture-fertilizer-for-certain-roses

This product sounds really useful!! I have found a place in Calgary that sells Expanded Shale. Straw ... do you think this would be good to add to my potting soil?

I know the expanded clay is sold for exactly that purpose. For drainage and Water Retention. The clay will absorb the water and then slowly Equalize it to the rest of the pot. I have found My pots need more per light or something like the expanded clay When I keep them dormant through the winter. When my pots are very heavy with Organics it can rot the roots In cold weather. That's the need for less water. However when I put in a lot of per light I do need to water them more. You have more experience in this so I don't need to tell you that! LOL! .

Carol: below link said "yes" to expanded shale for pots, since it doesn't decompose like perlite, plus perlite has zero nutrients. Expanded shale holds 40% of its weight in water. From below link: "It can be used with other containerized plants as well. Put a third of the shale in the bottom of the pot and then mix the shale with potting soil 50-50 for the rest of the container. To lighten heavy clay soil, lay a 3-inch (7.5 cm.) layer of expanded shale on top of the soil area to be worked; till it in 6-8 inches (15-20 cm.) deep. At the same time, till in 3 inches of plant-based compost, which will result in a 6-inch (15 cm.) raised bed with greatly improved friability, nutrient content, and moisture retention. https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/expanded-shale-information.htm

What a wonderful thread! Lots of gems found here for me. Lullaby looks like an excellent rose and I need to up the potassium a little bit to see if I can fend off the rust. I already got rid of the extremely rust prone Paul Neyron by rehoming to the in-laws place in the desert east of here, but a few other roses get a touch of rust. And one trick I learned from one of the Florida ladies is amending my soil with kitchen vegetable scraps, eggshells and coffee grounds blended in the blender. This has definitely created a better soil environment as evidenced by when I now move back the mulch to pour out the blender-full, I see so many worms that weren’t there before! My favorite twenty or so roses get this treatment so I estimate that each favorite rose gets this treatment twice a year. Golden Celebration, among my favorites, and I can’t resist showing off my ceanothus in full bloom right now. I am just wowed by that blue color.

Thank you, Stephanie for those great pics. .. Blue and yellow are my fav. I love my compost pile (lots of earthworms, like 20+ worms per garden-scoop). There's a hawk that likes my compost, and one time I saw the hawk flew from the compost pile and killed a bunny who was eating my Belinda's Dream. That was in the winter when snow covered the compost pile, so the bunnies could not eat from there.

I'm ordering a 2nd Golden Celebration as own-root since I'm addicted to its scent. It smells like cupcakes fresh from the oven, when I make my soil alkaline. It's short since winter-kill in my zone 5a chops it down to 3" every winter.

Khalid's Golden Celebration in Pakistan is 10 times bigger than mine, see below. He grows it as own-root and it roots easily. His secret: NEVER put chicken manure directly onto rose-bush (it burns the feeder roots), but he put chicken manure into his home-made compost which dilutes the phosphorus & salt in the manure.

Hi, Strawchicago,

Thank you fir this amazing thread. It’s a lot of plant science to digest. Very helpful!

I am using Miracle Gro Garden MG soil this year & I used it often in past which gave me nice roses. However, I would like to see profuse blooms this year as I planted 100 roses, many of them new this spring.

Along with my MG soil I added cow manure this April for first time, as was recommended as best fertilizer by Heirloom Roses & a rosarian innCA. . I am using cow manure for top dressing soil, only, mixed w/the MG soil. . All my roses have been growing well so far.

When would you suggest I fertiluse? I thought I’d use Rose Tone.

I am intrigued by your prolific bloomers and ideas for strong root growth To endure cold winters.,

My soil is clay but I use the above to amend.

Shouod I try sulfate Potash to get more blooms?

How would I know how to add it and when?

There are many organic fertilizers you suggest above.... I think it’s a lot to ponder for me. I’d like to try some new ideas.

Stephanie - I love Ceanothus - I have many different varieties. Which one is yours? It's gorgeous!

I put vegetable/fruit scraps, eggshells and coffee grounds in my compost. Maybe I should be blending them into the rose smoothie!

Well said, Vaporvac!! So true about rotting roots.

Straw - so the bottom of the pot should have JUST?? expanded clay? Actually, I'm not sure now if the place I found is the right place to go to. I'm going to try to find a place that offers this. :) :) I can see why you want to get another Golden Celebration!! And Khalid's GC is awesome! I love your description of its smell...cupcakes fresh from the oven!!

Stephanie - My goodness!!! Your GC is delectable!! The yellow is such a rich golden color!! And you have so many blooms!! And that purple bush!!! Wow!!!

Carol, The above link from straws post was for expanded share but I imagine having The above link from straws post was for expanded share but I imagine having used expanded clay before that you could use that also. They are suggesting putting it in the bottom of the pot much like 1 would use shards And then mixing the rest into your potting soil mixture 5050. I'm guessing this would replaced per light but I'm not sure.

Vaporvac - thanks! I'll look for expanded clay too. I hope I can find some. :) Yeah, sounds like it would replace perlite. :)

Okay...I found these: balls are 15-25 mm 25 mm is 1 inch approximately.

HYDROTON: EXPANDED CLAY BALLS

• $4800
• SAVE $6

Ball SizeBig Balls

Bag Size4 Litres10 Litres50 Litres

Big Balls / 4 Litres - Special Order Big Balls / 10 Litres - Special Order Big Balls / 50 Litres - $48.00 CAD Quantity

I guess this is right??? The pictures wouldn't come. Does this sound like the right size?

:) :) :)

Hmmmmm....I'm wondering if these balls (being clay) would increase the pH? Thoughts? :)

I'm really enjoying this thread, lots of good stuff here!

Straw- How did your roses do in terms of winter kill this year? I am in Elgin, IL and have found a lot less winterkill than average. Ex- my Golden Celebration has three feet of life to start this year. I'm in zone 5b.

Re using horse manure on your roses. One thing you need to consider is that when you get manure from the stable, it is mixed with sawdust. Sawdust will rob your soil of nitrogen if you dig it in. If you leave it on top, not too bad. So if you are digging that horse manure under, you may want to add some nitrogen to counteract the effects. The horse manure itself doesn't have enough to offset the effects of sawdust I'm also a fan of the 10-10-10 available for cheap at home depot.

Re Pea Gravel- I've got a bed next to the house that has a high percentage of pea gravel. Everything that grows there or has grown there has done noticeably better there. If I was doing my rose beds over, I would get 20 yards of it dumped on my driveway and would create a 50/50 mix with soil (my soil has some yellow clay in it).

Re Overwintering plants in the garage- I've done this in the past and killed plants because I forgot to water them. Even in the winter, plants need water.

Al: thanks for the fantastic feedback, I admire your garden and got Peter Mayle thanks to your recommendation. I grow roses for scents alone.

My own-root Golden Cel. was vigorous in the 1st three-years of topping with DRY horse manure (stable uses shell-lime) .. was at least 3 feet tall after winter 2012. Then I moved it next to the rain-spout, and it turned wimpy as 10-year-own-root (too much acidic rain that leaches out nitrogen & alkaline minerals). Mulching with wet-leaves in previous years made winter-kill down to 3 inch, so I mulched with wood-chips this winter and get decent height of 1 1/2 feet tall this spring. Lesson learned: WOOD-CHIPS are best to winterize roses. If I'm a rose I don't want to be covered with acidic leaves, but woodchips are dry & cozy & alkaline for winter. Except for pine bark at pH 4.

Pea-gravel is FANTASTIC & full of minerals since it's obtained from river bed. Khalid in Pakistan topped his roses with soil from the bottom of river, and these alkaline-minerals (calcium & potassium) help his roses to withstand 113 F heat.

I get twice more blooms if I dunk pea-gravel in my rain-barrels. I have a spot where I dumped icky-yellowish-sub-clay, nothing grew there since 2010. Then I mixed in some pea-gravel and BOOM !! Peppermint starts creeping over there, 1st-time ever, and these plants have perfect large leaves. I have 2 neighbors: one rototilled his garden, breaking up rocks into smaller chunks, he put fertilizer in the planting hole and nothing else afterwards. The other mixed in woodchips for aeration, plus frequent SOLUBLE chemical fertilizer (high in phosphorus). Both have the same amount of fruits, but the one with broken-stones have much healthier leaves in late fall. Below are bouquets formed with pea-gravel, they last longer in the vase than when I tested SOLUBLE chemical fertilizer. Even dark-red Barcelona (Francis Dubreuil had more petals).

Deep pink below are Duchess de Rohan .. blooms last 4 days in the vase with pea-gravel, light pinks are Evelyn and lowest pinks are Carding Mill. I rarely pick Carding Mill for the vase (it blows fast), but watering with pea-gravel-water extends vase-life.

Princess Charlene de Monaco with pea-gravel below, I like it more than sulfate of potash (induces cluster-blooms, but NOT single-large bloom like pea-gravel).

Strawchicago,

How much pea gravel do you put on your rise soil? Do you always soak it in rain water first? Where do you buy pea gravel?

Kitty6aNY Topping with cow-manure (rich in SOLUBLE phosphorus) induces tons of blooms for the 1st few years. But after several years, there's phosphorus-accumulation, esp. in heavy clay, and that result in lesser health. I had seen my neighbor with many Knock-outs topping her roses with cow manure and got more blooms than leaves, but within 3 years their health decline and she got rid of them.

My Knock-out lasted longer than hers with zero fertilizer, and when I killed my decade-old Knock-outs for my love affair with fragrant roses .... my decade-old Knock-out were vigorous & healthy. Husband was mad that I took out a tall & healthy Knock-out bush.

There's phosphorus accumulation with chemical-fertilizer as well (phosphorus mobility is a 1, it hardly moves). Cantigny rose park used a high-phosphorus fertilizer, yes, they did get tons of blooms for the 1st few years, then there's a decline in health (tons of blackspots, even on Baby Love (disease-resistant) mini). Then they get rid of all their 1,200 roses altogether.

I did the same with my Kordes FlowerCarpets .. they are 100% healthy & vigorous for over a decade, until I topped with chicken manure, they dwindle in size due to phosphorus burn. I once burnt a dozen geraniums when I dumped high-phosphorus bone-meal on them .. colors became deep & vibrant but leaves got brown-scorched.

I never kill any roses with too much nitrogen (blood meal), nor too much sulfate of potash (a mineral), but I shrank plenty of roses with wads of chicken manure. I also killed 2 roses with cow-manure in the planting hole. Sulfate of potash makes blooms larger, but when too much sulfate of potash is used, you'll get cluster-blooming, rather than one bloom per stem. Below bouquet was fertilized with sulfate of potash plus calcium, note the larger size blooms on Annie L. McDowell (lavender) and Golden Celebration.

Hi, Strawchicago,

Thank you for all your wonderful info on NPK on your roses!!

I have been reading a lot to try to understand how it works after studying your comments. Learning tons!

I realized years ago that over fertilizing due too much Nitrate burns roses, contributes to too much foliage growth, & less blooms. Too much Nitrogen when over used from manure & fertilizers can cause burning scorched roses & slow death. Too little Nitrate on roses contributes to wimpy leaf growth.. However, Nitrogen used corrected can give roses healthy happy leaf growth which gives food to make rose blooms. . Some experts claim phosphorus grows the rose roots, stem, leaves, blooms. And potassium (potash) helps w/ disease resistance, insects infestations, and recovering from severe weather. Sounds like roses need all 3 NPK, but how to get the right amount?

I have already put cow manure on rose beds, but mixed in w/soil. However, I think I will be careful to not over do manure in future. I use organic soil, too-and that’s my main soil.

I see you have tried many manures, fertizers, and chemicals. Is it possible to give us a list of them & when you apply them?

I see your zone 5 is close to my zone 6. I could follow a regimen similar to you. I am wondering later this summer after cow manure has washed out that I like to try Rose Tone or Kelp or Fish E or what would you recommend?

Again, I think keeping it simple so to not over do- for it is best. I think your neighbor over did the cow manure-too much NPK altogether! With too much foliage growth, and later health decline. I can’t say for sure...as I didn’t see how much she used & how close to roses roots.

. Heirloom Roses says don’t put cow manure around rose roots, put in bottom of hole and can put it on top. Paul Zimmerman says mix horse manure in bottom hole when planting....then add other soil & mulch. The ratios on cow manure & horse manure are similar-horse manure has little more nitrate. I watched a few videos on it. Any manure can be overdone if put too near roots of roses burning them or stunting their growth w/too much NPK. I also tead to be especially careful with chicken manure as it is higheat if the manures in Nitrogen and to use it in small amounts.

I think a lot of people may not know how to use manure correctly as they may put manure on thickly and near roses roots which is too much or use “non-composted manure,” all of which would burn-kill roses sooner or later.

Less is more-in your case-your roses did better than neighbor’s because you used no manure! Yay! A little manure on the other hand can be good If used correctly.

Thank you, for sharing your knowledge & experience with horticulture of roses with us!

Kitty: Per your question on where to get pea-gravel: landscape company sells them in various sizes. Stores here (Menards & Walmart & HomeDepot) here carry pea-gravel in bags, cheap at $3 to $4 per 50 lb. bag. They look grayish in the bag, but once washed, they have pretty colors: light pink, brown, red, but it's mostly gray & white pebbles.

Manure is NOT high in nitrogen, but high in phosphorus, esp. chicken manure at NPK 2-4-3.

https://www.amazon.com/COOP-POOP-PURPOSE-GARDEN-FOOD/dp/B00IKTITEC

One should multiply phosphorus by 10 since there are several lab reports of tenfold accumulated phosphorus in stockpiled chicken manure, so the actual chicken manure NPK is 2-40-3, rather than 2-4-3. That's how one lady back in 2011 burnt a dozen of her roses with chicken manure (monthly fertilizing). The same is true with accumulated phosphorus in stockpiled cow manure. Phosphorus is great for tomatoes (cluster-roots) but NOT best for woody & chunky root roses (less branching of roots and less need for phosphorus).

It's the overdose on phosphorus which stunts plants and burn leaves. Plants need very little phosphorus due to: 1) Phosphorus doesn't leach out with its mobility of 1, versus nitrogen mobility a 10 (leaches out with watering).

2) Phosphorus is for branching of roots & stems. Phosphorus is needed for young-own-roots (cluster-root), or multiflora-rootstock (cluster-root), but LESS NEEDED when own-roots mature into woody & chunky sticks (like Dr.Huey-rootstock). Below info. is from website on plant-nutrients:

"Nitrogen Deficiency Caused by High Phosphorus or Potassium & Waterlogged soil.

- Yellowing of leaves, which starts from its tip. Older leaves are affected first
- Thin young shoots & Stunted growth & Small sized leaves & Short internodes."

It's easier to overdose on phosphorus than potassium since plants use MORE potassium and potassium leaches out (mobility of 3). Rose tissue analysis by U. of CA at Davis showed equal nitrogen to potassium, 1/2 calcium, 1/10 of phosphorus and 1/10 magnesium.

My best lawn is from fertilizing with high nitrogen, and some potassium (for deeper green & lush growth). One time I tested Milorganite (NPK 6-4-0), that WAS NOT ENOUGH NITROGEN for the lawn !! Grass was stunt with thinner blades & ugly color, and the cluster-root-weeds were exploding in blooms.

So I tested Milorganite NPK 6-4-0 on my roses in pots, and I didn't get any blooms with zero potassium, but ugly & small leaves and dwarfed roses. Sewage sludge is good for trace elements to induce blooming (if there's enough potassium), but won't be best for health.

The key to more blooms is NOT phosphorus, but potassium plus trace elements. Phosphorus works well for branching of cluster-root like multiflora-rootstock, but doesn't apply to matured own-roots which become chunky & woody like Dr.Huey-rootstock. A Michigan State horticulture professor said it well, "It's the absence of nitrogen that promotes blooming, rather than the excess of phosphorus."

He's right, one time I threw blood-meal on marigolds NPK 12-0-0 to deter rabbits. Marigolds shot up to 3 feet tall. These high-nitrogen marigolds have the best looking large leaves & thick stems, except they have zero blooms for the entire summer !! High nitrogen is best spring when roses are winter-killed almost to the crown in zone 5, and high potassium is best before and after blooming along with trace elements. Phosphorus is best for starter-soil for young plants, multiflora-rootstock or cluster-root tomatoes.

Hi,

Stawchicago... It’s funny... I have seen different ratios on all the manures... but these stats & a few I saw all said chicken manure high in Nitrate. It’s confusing. And I read articles about it. They said & below ratios show.... cow & horse manure has less Nitrogen than Chicken manure... Chicken manure pellets have highest ratio of Nitrogen. Oh, depends on what pile of manure was tested.

...

Interesting to consider multiple phosphorus by 10-wow! I wonder what ARS who recommends 6-12-6 ratio fertizers would say about multiply by 10. Experts start differing. Its getting very confusing. simple would be nice.

My best rose is Eden, 8 years old, about 10feet tall, 20feet wide. I use Miracle For for Rose every two month, miracle gro water soluble rose plant food weekly during bloom.

Lynne - Wow! That is the best Eden I have ever seen! You sure make the case for Miracle Grow!

Thank you,@BirdsLoveRosesSoCalCoast

LOL

Straw - oh my goodness!!!! Your roses are soooo beautiful!!! I especially love the shot with ALM and GC and your PCdM!!!! Swoon!!!

Lynne - WOW!!!! Incredible!!!!

Straw - what do you think of my questions I asked earlier? I'm going to order the clay balls today if you think it's good. :) :)

Okay...I found these: balls are 15-25 mm 25 mm is 1 inch approximately.

HYDROTON: EXPANDED CLAY BALLS

• $4800
• SAVE $6

Ball SizeBig Balls

Bag Size4 Litres10 Litres50 Litres

Big Balls / 4 Litres - Special Order Big Balls / 10 Litres - Special Order Big Balls / 50 Litres - $48.00 CAD Quantity

I guess this is right??? The pictures wouldn't come. Does this sound like the right size?

:) :) :)

Hmmmmm....I'm wondering if these balls (being clay) would increase the pH? Thoughts? :)

That is certainly 1 of the best Eden's I have ever seen! You make the case for weekly weakly liquid fertilization beautifully! 😀

Strawchicago,

Gorgeous and abundant rose blooms above!

Lynn, Love your roses! I guess Miracle Gro fertilizer works well. Do you spray Miracle Gro every 2 weeks? It is the very best blooming Eden I have ever seen, too! I didn’t know 1 Eden rose could be 20 ft wide. Enormous!

You brought up a good point kitty. I would like to know Lynn if you just use the liquid fertilizer to water your plants or are you spraying them. I assumed you meant you were just watering them.

Hmmmm....maybe I won't use the expanded clay balls. I found this:

While these clay pellets are known for their neutral pH and lack of nutrients, they can still absorb and hold onto the nutrients you add along the journey. After time, phytotoxicity can build up and starve the plants. Watch for any whitish residue on the top and rinse the plant and pebbles with a pH-adjusted liquid. You can also leach the system with the liquid.

Thoughts? :)

Carol, why are you wanting to change what you're doing? Are you having issues or just trying to up your game at all times!? LOL! I'm also wondering what the source of this information is not that I don't believe it. That is what the clay pellets are meant to do is absorb the moisture and then redistribute it more evenly and cut down on watering as well as provide some aeration. So I wonder on what basis they're making this call. I would love to see the research here. Unless I'm using a liquid fertilizer and even in that case I have to flush my potted plants from time to time When I see that whitish residue. Since I don't fertilize a lot I rarey see it. On my potted roses that I grow from cuttings I never see that although I fertilize those quite frequently but at very low level and I leave them outside to be rained upon which does Leach out the salts. With my other fertilizer such as that it The salts That I worry about.

Thank you, Carol, Kitty and Vaporvac!

Vaporvac is right, I only water it weekly, no spray.

I might need to add more as the new bud open up pure white

Lynne that Eden is Insanely Gorgeous! It has blooms all the way to the ground! More blooms than I can count lol.

I am going to get some MG for Roses!

Thank you, @sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)

LOL, I gave up counting a while ago. There are still lots of buds not open yet.

Vaporvac - when I started my roses here in Calgary...my roses did really well. But then the place that I got my potting soil from stopped making their blend. And ever since, I've been struggling with my roses. Some do well, regardless of what I do...but some really struggle. This year, the place I get my soil from has produced its potting soil again...and I bought 2 yards of it! It even has pumice in it. I'm excited for my roses this year! :)

Thank you carol! You should get the recipe so we can try and create it. It would be interesting to know what goes in it since you roses did well with it in the past.

This is a new blend. I'm hoping for good things! It has:

Plant Power Plant power is bursting with life! This premium grade potting soil made from a blend of compost, peat moss, pumice, fir fines, CocoCoir, zeolite, Earth Alive soil activator and worm castings and cocoons. This Soil-less blend is course in texture, rich in organic matter, and packed with nutrients and beneficial bacteria, with an optimal pH for amending. It makes and exceptional planting soil for all types of plant material and when used as a soil amendment will transform even the poorest soils

Just a little more detail about how I use horse manure. Yes, I would be slightly cautious about digging in large quantities with a wood type bedding material that wasn't very well composted precisely because of the potential nitrogen tie up effect that could temporarily limit nitrogen availability. What I have always done--because I want entire beds and not specific "holes"--is to dig and prepare beds with copious manure in the fall for spring planting. Letting it rest over time allows all the good biology to get revved up so it is really in great shape before I plant anything.

After the beds have been prepared I'll use more compost in the planting hole including around the roots. I'll also add in the hole either a shale product (Planters II) or lately a biochar product. The rest of the time the compost is used as a top dressing a few inches thick then I'll cover it all with pine bark fines--sometimes sold as "soil conditioner"--as mulch. There's some good science that indicates that wood/high carbon mulches do not tie up nitrogen when they are used on top of the soil. Usually I try to get the whole bed covered w/compost either in the fall or early spring. Then every rose gets a shovel full or two if they are larger a few times during the growing season.

I've used manure at all stages from fresh to perfectly composted. (Although usually I'm too impatient to wait for perfect!). I have never had horse manure "burn" a rose even when I've tossed it on literally moments after it's been gifted. I also try to limit how much shavings gets into what I'm composting when I clean stalls. One bucket for the wet that goes in the manure spreader and one bucket for just the poop and minimal bedding that goes into compost boxes. Horse manure on its own without bedding has a good C/N ratio for composting so too much bedding tends to really slow down the process. I would not trust a chart that gives ratios as there are way to many variables in each situation.

The last couple years I've added some alfalfa tea to the mix, but fundamentally I'm a very lazy gardener so everything is pretty hit or miss--which is why I focus on soil. At least I'm lazy enough to know that nothing will get over done.

I should add one important caveat: I have heavy clay soil and 50+ inches of rain a year. With clay it is alway a fight to keep enough organic matter in it so it doesn't compact and will hold water. Compost "disappears" quickly here. The good news is once you address the compacting clay is rich in minerals. Nitrogen also passes pretty quickly through with the rain amounts--every soil test I've ever done is "great on everything, but needs nitrogen." So, IF I get inspired to start tinkering I pretty much stick with nitrogen focused products with low P and K. These days I've really turned my attention to not necessarily providing NPK, but trying to figure out how to have soil that makes NPK more available to my plants.

For rosecanada: the rose in my last picture is Buck's Carefree Beauty. That was a particularly good year and while it is a solid team player every year it typically does not have blooms that big. Also, Louis is the bay horse on the left, he's a goofy 2 year and Bruce is on the right. Bruce has gone back to his home and Rye is now Louis' buddy. The other poopmasters are Moon, Louis' big brother, and Maddox the oldster that keeps everybody in line.

Subk3 and others who are using biochar — can you say more about how you’re using it and why?

Aerbk7b I am using biochar because after a bunch of research I decided to try it this spring on 5 acres of pasture (out of about 30 acres) as a test to see if it could address some issues I have with my soil. Specifically my farm was phosphate mined in the the 70s--a process which destroys topsoil and leaves the land with subsoil as the first few inches of soil. After in-depth discussions with both the manufacture rep and the wholesale dealer's agronomist it seemed like it should be a super addition to my gardens as well. With an ag exemption I get to buy through a wholesaler and while it is still expensive it is far, far cheaper per pound when buying in bulk. In for a penny, in for a pound I threw a few extra bags on the order for the gardens.

As I said above I'm looking at clay soil (and subsoil) which the main problem is with the lack of organic matter, compaction and the inability to not just hold water but to also provide space for microbial life--the real key to healthy soils. Biochar is highly, highly porous at the microscopic level and as such directly addresses that issue. The porosity not only holds water, it also provides space for air and microbes. It also can address issues of salinity and pH.

The product I'm using is produced by Mirimichi Green, CarbonPro-G which is 49% biochar, 49% compost and 2% mycorrhizal fungi. It's more typically used on golf courses, athletic fields and other turf applications. It's an experiment this year not just on my pastures, but also in the gardens. I'm doing a broadcast application (fancy way a saying I'm taking handfuls and tossing it around) as well as incorporating it in the new planting holes of about 8 new roses then doing an extra toss or two around the drip line of my established roses. I'm really kind of excited about the potential...we'll see.

subk3 - thank you! Very interested to hear how it goes!

aerbk7b- Me too!! I've been studying and working on this for a few years. I was already to pull the trigger a year ago and Covid messed things up and I had to delay to this spring. So I've had pleanty of time to convince myself how great it's going to be--I'm likely over selling it--but if I end up with half the success I'm told is the potential I'll be thrilled. If I can mitigate mining damage that has generally been considered to take hundreds of years to repair it will be an amazing thing.

Subk3 - I went back up to have a relook at your horses now that I know there names...and I couldn't find them??? That's weird...unless they're in a different thread. ??

Straw also loves biochar!! Looks like something that will really make a difference!!

@strawchicago z5 you are a rose wizard for sure!!! Amazing pics. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

Rosecanadian (Carol): Your Plant Power soil is great, it's similar to a fancy-potting soil that Seaweed (Lily) used in Organic Rose. I read over your Plant Power soil-mix and it has everything a plant needs: air & moisture and minerals (from pumice & compost). Cheap potting soil like Schultz is made from ground-up bark (recycled forest products) and it's NOT worth it .. it's one of my worst failed experiment. Definitely skip the clay balls since it's too dense for pots. Plants need air-space just as much as water.

Lynn: Your Eden is amazing!! Wow !! I have better luck with MG-SOLUBLE NPK 18-24-16, rather than MG-granular Shake & Feed for roses at NPK 12-4-8. MG-soluble for roses always give me instant blooms for the past 10 years, but I soaked MG-Shake & Feed granular for roses and it could not dissolve in acidic rain water after 2 days. Perhaps warm CA weather break down granular-fertilizer better?

Vaporvac: Agree with your salt-concern. NOTE: MG-SOLUBLE for roses has sulfate of potash at salt index of 43, versus other types of MG-SOLUBLE has the cheap muriate of potash (potassium chloride) at high salt index of 112.

Slumgullion: My learning comes from making tons of mistakes & always try new things and growing roses in the worst environment (zone 5, rock-hard clay, drought alternate with heavy rain, very shady garden).

Kitty: per your question about the timing of fertilizing, see below thread:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6111804/soil-ph-soil-type-moisture-fertilizer-for-certain-roses#n=32

Regarding biochar: I did a long thread on biochar last year, after testing it several times before a heavy rain. Very impressed with roses' health enabled by SOLUBLE calcium and potassium in biochar. I have been growing no-spray roses for over 2 decades. One drawback of biochar: it messed up old-rose scent, and The Dark Lady rose reeked like burnt wax .. but after tons of rain, its blooms revert back to fabulous old-rose.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6003039/biochar-and-horse-manure-and-kelp-for-trace-elements#n=58

Below field-study documents biochar's effect on geraniums:

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4395/9/5/260

"The experiment was conducted in a greenhouse while using three different growth media (i.e., solid digestate, biochar, and vermiculite). The results indicated that: (i) the pyrolysis of solid digestate caused a reduction in the bulk density (−52%) and an increase in the pH (+16%) and electrical conductivity (+9.5%) in the derived biochar; (ii) the best crop performances (number of leaves, number of total branches, and plant dry weight) were found using biochar, particularly for plant dry weight (+11.4%) and essential oil content (+9.4%)"

Below is The Dark Lady's bloom, very large thanks to SOLUBLE potassium & many petals thanks to SOLUBLE calcium from biochar. Left is W.S. 2000, center pink is Radio Times. My vote for the most drought-tolerant & prickly own-root Austin: The Dark Lady (has Rugosa heritage & drought-tolerant & blooms well in partial shade). Rose Unlimited stops selling Austin roses after this year, and I want a 2nd one. The Dark Lady was the best looking bush at Chicago Botanical garden, besides Buck's "Hi Neighbor" rose.

Own-root dark lady blooming in partial shade, below small blooms were before biochar experiment:

Straw - Yippee!!! I did good! :) :) And I figured because my potting soil has pumice in it, that it wouldn't need the clay balls. Excellent to hear that you don't think I need them. :) I'm so excited for my roses to come!!

Oh!!! Your TDL blooms are exquisite!!!

Your roses are so beautiful 😍

Bio hat seems to really work well! Amazing deep large blooms! I saw another person put ashes in their gsrden & good soil... roses grew really beautiful

What an incredible thread!!!! It will take me days to get through all the info. Thanks to all! Teri Hoover