Do you use the oven so much that you need 2 full ovens? Are you not interested in a 48" which comes with a regular size oven and a small one (that preheats very quickly)? 15" counter to the left is very tight. I had 18" in my previous kitchen and it felt unusable. Your kitchen is pretty large, a 30" cooktop will look small.

Ovens...I like Option 2 the best...range + single wall oven/MW stack. It will allow you to place the oven at an optimum height instead of having the lower oven a bit too low and the upper a bit too high. Get them separately as MWs often die sooner than wall ovens and you don't want to have to replace both. Create an alcove above the oven to place a countertop MW inside (be sure to have an outlet installed inside the alcove for the MW).

Option 3, IMO, is a non-starter. A wall oven mounted under the counter is much lower to the floor than an oven in a range. I would only consider it if everyone in the family was very short. Even then, I think Option 1 is the best of the three.

If you go with Option 1, get a double-oven only in the stack as opposed to double-oven + MW in the oven stack, I would get a MW drawer for a MW and not a countertop, over the range, standard MW under the counter, or even hanging from an upper cabinet (although, this last option would be the least objectionable option if you cannot get a MW drawer).

Cooktop...Yes, I think a 36" cooktop will be much too cramped.

Sink & DW...Moving the sink to center it under the window is fine, but keep the DW on the right so it's not in the middle of the Prep Zone and an obstacle b/w the sink and range when open.

If the door to the left goes to a Pantry (do you mean the opening to the left of the ovens?)...

• Where does the right side of the Kitchen go? It looks like it extends past the refrigerator wall.
• Where does the door on the right to the right of the refrigerator lead?

I would probably move the range over about 3" so there's 18" b/w the range and ovens and 33" b/w the corner and range. I would also see if you can get the narrowest cabinet possible for the ovens, not a 33"W, try for 30" or 31.5" and add that "extra inchers" to the space b/w the range and ovens. (Assuming the cabinet you show is not already the narrowest possible.)

If you want a more open feel, then maybe move the ovens to the right of the refrigerator? Not ideal and not something I would probably do personally, but it's an option to open up that corner.

I would switch the refrigerator and cabinet area so fridge is on the outside. Put ovens next to counter where that cabinet would be. That way you have place to set hot things from the oven. I'd put shelf for M/W in island. Yes to 36" cook top.

@lucky998877 Yes - I bake a lot and I find there are often times I wish I had two ovens - and not just for baking, but for roasting veges when a main requires the oven. Do you find the 18" oven big enough? ie It won't fit a half-sheet.

@Buehl good point about two wall ovens being even lower than a traditional range. Got it. Yes, with option #1, I was thinking only of 2 regular double wall ovens. MW will be built in to the island near the fridge (we use MW for reheating leftovers).

Re the right side of the kitchen - you can see what's going on from the model home photo:

Trying to accommodate a double oven is getting very complicated when the windows occupy the largest counter area preventing cook area there.

@ashtonchic not really following?

@Buehl another option for the double wall oven/cooktop approach is to go with two 27" double wall ovens instead of 30". I'm not sure if this would make the difference for a 36" cooktop. And have never used a 27" oven but a quick search turned up that a 27" oven will hold a 22-lb turkey:)

OR go with option #2 - range and 24" wall oven as second oven. This will more easily allow for a 36" cook area -- ie 36" range -- and still have enough counter space while at the same time having a second oven big enough for many things.

Your second layout shows a cabinet next to refrigerator. The MH photo shows a door and no cabinet. Since that cabinet isn't really there, I'd put second oven next to stove/oven on lower right - not in corner though.. Or put microwave there and oven in island.

I like #1 for the wall ovens, since I don't see the point of mounting wall ovens under a countertop. It's much more expensive than just getting a range, and for me the whole point of wall ovens is there is no bending over to access them. And I would do a 36" cooktop

@winstir, yes the small oven is awesome! I use it all the time. I can make banana bread, small pizzas etc there...and it's so quick to heat up for a quick batch of cookies...I bought a 2nd rack for it, so it can handle double the amount now. I do most of my cooking on the gas burners...which is why I wanted the space for multiple large pans, and to be able to cook next to my kids.

We have a large range with oven. Then on the wall we have a 30” oven with a microwave over it. We used both ovens enough that I’m happy we have them

@lucky998877 - yep, going to look into this! @Karen Heffernan while I'd like the 30" wall ovens, the issue is having enough counter space next to the cooktop - will be to cramped for 36" cooktop.

@ashtonchic still not following. The MH and the layout image are the same with the cabinets with the fridge. To the right of the fridge, is the door to the pantry. To the left, the counter on the window side continues and wraps around. So can't follow what you're suggesting about placement of second oven.

I think ashtonchic mistook the door for a cabinet in your second layout.

Leave the pantry door & refrigerator as-is. Switching them (if it is even possible) would make the island a barrier island b/w the refrigerator and the Cooking Zone and a borderline barrier b/w the Prep Zone and refrigerator.

Will there be a prep sink in the island? It looks like it in the second layout (white circle). If so, move it in a bit. Aim for 18" b/w the counter edge and the sink to provide landing space and to minimize splashing on the floor. Use that space for the trash pullout, it's an excellent place for it. The trash pullout will be next to the prep sink in the island Prep Zone and near the Cooking Zone, Cleanup Zone, and perimeter Prep Zone (b/w the cleanup sink under the window and the left corner).

They don't make 36" versions of this?

You're giving up so much elbow room to put your ovens up high, and it seems so painful to be crowded in such a nice space.

I agree with @acm and others who think this area will feel very tight with the wall ovens stacked. My range is currently 36" from a corner (aka 12" from the perpendicular counter), and it makes working on that side just a little uncomfortable. Even an additional 6" would make a world of difference. Luckily the other side is wide open - if I only had 15" on the other side I would lose my mind! I would consider a 36" or even 48" range instead. If my math is correct the 48" would give you 21" on each side plus the 24" of the perpendicular counter if you center it on the short leg - I would take that over wall ovens any day!

I don't know how much you can/cannot do and I don't know what's beyond, but would they be willing to extend the wall with the oven cabinet another foot or so? Even 6" would help...(12" would be much better.)

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"...a 27" oven will hold a 22-lb turkey..."

It may hold that large a turkey, but I think it would be tight.

If you want a 36" range/cooktop + 30" ovens, you do not have room for an oven stack next to it. You barely have enough room for a 30" cooktop/range. If you want a 36" cooktop/range, then I think you need to stick with a 36" range and forget about the oven stack.

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"...option #2 - range and 24" wall oven as second oven. This will more easily allow for a 36" cook area -- ie 36" range..."

If it just needs a 24" wide oven cabinet, then maybe it would work...it would be the same as a 30" cooktop with a 30" wide oven cabinet.

I would still try for 18" b/w the oven cabinet and range. Moving the sink to the right to center it on the window will at least provide enough work space next to that sink to allow someone to be working at the sink and the range at the same time.

@Buehl we had decided to scrap the prep sink as the centered sink at window really is just a couple steps difference - and seemed saving that area in island for prep - with drawers for knives and implements etc was more functional. Thought?

@biondanonima (Zone 7a Hudson Valley) I briefly considered a 48" range/double oven. But that 18" left oven - with interior width of 12" and depth of 10" seems useless for what I envision a second oven being used for. And a 36" range doesn't give me the second oven.

@all - thanks all for your comments. This is a big help in focusing on what's required.

Unfortunately, at this stage, there is no possibility to extend that wall without a major impact to the final constructions drawings - including, truss and flooring systems, pitch of roof etc. (supposed to break ground in 2 weeks).

So...options now seem to be:

1) 30" range and single 30" wall oven (15" between)

2) 30" range and single 27" wall oven (18" between)

3) 30" range and single 24" wall oven (21" between)

4) 36" range and single 24" wall oven (15" between)

5) double stacked 27" wall ovens and 30" cooktop or range cooktop (18" between)

OR one other new option I haven't yet considered:

6) range + second oven and micrwoave in island

We have room for an island 7'8" in length - with 42" clearance on either side. This could accommodate a below counter wall oven + microwave - and still leave about 4 feet of island.

Found a couple of pics - something like this (IGNORE COOKTOP AND HOOD). I would put microwave on far left, oven next to it, and leave 4' of prep area on right side of island if going this route. This would leave ample counter space next to range. Any cons?

BUT .. if going this route, maybe this still leaves the original #3 as an option??? This idea first came about from an image I saw on Houzz some time back:

If you have time, lmk what you would do given:

A) you wanted 2 ovens

B) the space limitations here

thanks!

If you do a 36" freestanding or drop-in range you can have a nice roomy oven that looks like it belongs. The two separate ovens below just look strange to me from a design standpoint. Plus, it will be much easier to change out freestanding range/oven and probably cheaper too. I would put both M/W and second oven in island. Don't know why it should affect prep space since they will be under the counter. - as long as you can open oven door fully.

Good luck!

Are there really no 36 or 48" ranges with reasonably sized double ovens? I have a 30" GE Cafe range with double oven below and it accommodates everything I need to bake. The small top oven is perfect for small jobs like roasting a single pan of vegetables, and heats up super fast. The larger bottom section is smaller than a standard single oven but still large enough to hold a big turkey.

Anyway, I noted your suggestion of a range plus wall oven and micro in the island, and that is probably what I would do if I couldn't find a 36 or 48" range with an acceptable oven configuration. I know some people have cautioned that the wall oven under the counter will be low to the floor, but my bottom oven is literally ON the floor and it really doesn't bother me (and I am 6' tall!). For big baking projects it would be great to have an oven right below that big open expanse of island, and with the micro in the island you can put it on the end near the fridge (which is where I prefer my micro since it mostly gets used for reheating leftovers).

I'd do option #1 with a range and a separate wall oven. (get a 30" - I have a 27" double and while I have not had an issue with size - HUGE TURKEYS!) they are getting hard to come by as the standard is 30" so for future proofing - get the 30.

And get a micro drawer. My micro is up high and it's kinda dangerous for getting hot water / melted butter out of. I'd avoid it if I could.

I would not consider Option 6 -- for the same reasons I mentioned about your original Option 3.

Prep Sink in Island....

"...and seemed saving that area in island for prep - with drawers for knives and implements etc was more functional."

If you want to use the island for prepping, then keep the prep sink in the island.

There are two KEY items for a successful/functional Prep Zone: (1) direct water access and (2) at least 36" of clear/unobstructed workspace immediately adjacent to the sink.

The next two things are near the Cooking Zone (preferably next to or directly across from the cooktop/range) and the trash pullout/can in the Prep Zone (usually next to the sink).

I suggest reading this thread:

Ice.Water.Stone.Fire, a humorous discussion of Kitchen design: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

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"We have room for an island 7'8" in length - with 42" clearance on either side."

How are you measuring the "clearance" (I assume you mean aisle width)? Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out the farthest -- counter overhangs, appliance handles, walls, etc. They are not measured to/from cabinets. Many people mistakenly measure to/from cabinets and find out later their aisles are not as wide as they thought they would be. Cabinets are 24" deep -- and that depth does not include the doors/drawer fronts (~1" beyond the cabinet box) or counter overhangs (~1.5" beyond the cabinet box). It also does not take into account any appliances on the same aisle. E.g., counter-depth refrigerators are actually ~30" deep when accounting for doors & handles (only the box is counter-depth, the doors must extend out past all surrounding items to fully open). If you're measuring your aisle cab-to-cab, then your aisles are at least 3" narrower (1.5" on each side of the aisle b/w the perimeter and island). Between the island and refrigerator (if there's overlap), your aisle is probably 7.5" narrower (6" for refrigerator & 1.5" for island counter overhang).

Which just led me to notice a possible issue with the design...is there at least 12" b/w the pantry wall and the refrigerator? The pantry wall appears to be deeper than the refrigerator, which means that unless it's a true built-in ($$$), the refrigerator doors will not open fully for full access or cleaning. (I cannot tell for certain from the picture, but from your layout above, it looks like the answer is "no".)

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"This could accommodate a below counter wall oven + microwave - and still leave about 4 feet of island."

Putting your MW in the island would not eliminate prep space. Put it on the end so it's not in the middle of the Prep Zone, but it won't eliminate the counter space.

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If you want my recommendation....

• 3) 30" range and single 24" wall oven (21" between). I think that gives you a larger oven in the range (as opposed to a 36"W range with 2 ovens) and more workspace and emergency landing space around the range.
• Add a prep sink to the island with the following layout: 1.5" counter overhang + 18" trash pullout + 21" sink base + 24" drawer base (knives, prep tools, etc.) + 24" MW drawer + 1.5" counter overhang (all this adds up to a 7'6" island) You could go with an 18" sink base; that would give you 3 more inches to distribute into the aisles.
• For the island depth -- at least 41.5" deep (round up to 42"). That would be: 1.5" counter overhang + 24"D cabinets + 1" decorative doors/end panels on the backs of the cabinets + 1.5" seating overhang. [If your family is tall, I would go with an 18" seating overhang; otherwise, 15" is probably deep enough (for both short-to-average height).]
• Finally, look into the refrigerator situation with regards to its location against a wall deeper than the refrigerator's doors. If you need space, consider a narrow utility pullout b/w them for broom, mop, etc.

BTW...Just moving the cleanup sink to the perimeter made the overall functionality and look much better. In the original design (with only one sink and in the island), there was a lot of wasted counterspace along that back wall. Now, if they had put the range back there (maybe flanked by windows), that would have been better for an island sink layout.

@Buehl I really appreciate your thoughtful answers A lot makes sense and I wish I didn't have this space limitation.

Do you think 18" between range and wall oven would work (to accommodate a 27" inch wall oven and 30" range)?

As I thought about my use for a second oven, I think I will get frustrated not being able to fit a half-sheet baking tray in it. A 24" oven just won't accommodate that size, and I see myself frequently using a half-sheet for roasting vegetables while another part of the meal is in the primary oven. If it were just a matter of baking a cake, etc in the second, no problem. But this use is compromised by the smaller oven.

That's why by yesterday, I thought that a 27" oven in the island could really address both issues: sufficient counter space by the range, and a large enough second oven.

I totally see what you mean by a below-counter wall oven being closer to the floor, and a deeper bend. But not sure that alone is enough to eliminate it when considering the other factors.

So between:

• 30" range and 27" wall oven with 16-18" counter space (need to allow for cabinet so don't 18" is guaranteed)
• 30" range and 27" wall oven installed in island

Which is the better choice?

How tall are you and your family (height range)?

For me, the under counter wall oven is a deal breaker, so I would probably settle for the first bullet.

If you are a short family (< 5'9" or so), you might be OK with the under counter wall oven. I just know that when I toyed with the idea my KD took me to see one installed and I was surprised at low it was. If this is to be your "forever home" (i.e., plan to age in place here), then think about how over the years it will be leaning/bending far down to take things out of the oven, in particular, heavier items such as a turkey or a large casserole dish full of food.

If you do go with an under counter wall oven, I would go with a 30", not 27". To me, anything smaller than a 30" is for places that cannot fit a 30". While your oven stack & spacing issue qualify for that, if it's under the counter, it does not -- you have the room.

You never answered (or I missed it if you did), but I assume the builder is not willing to extend the wall with the range another 6" to 12". I also assume you cannot change the windows. Correct?

@Buehl no - unfortunately, we cannot extend that wall without major impact on floor systems, trusses, and roof line and we're breaking ground within 2 weeks. Everything in the building trades are so overwhelmed now with demand, I wouldn't want to go back to amend architectural drawings at this point - so will deal.

Heightwise - I'm 5'5" - and although my husband is 6', he's not the one who will be impacted.

To answer the question of whether a wall oven under the counter will feel too low for you, I would suggest finding a showroom with a wall oven mounted under a counter or the GE Cafe double oven range and trying it out for yourself. This is the model I have:

https://www.appliancesconnection.com/cafe-cgs750p2ms1.html

As you can see, the larger oven is at floor level (lower than your wall oven would be, but close enough for comparison's sake if you can't find a showroom with a wall unit under counter). I am 6' tall and I don't find the low oven bothersome. Then again, I am also young(ish) without any mobility problems, and have no issues lifting heavy things.

@biondanonima (Zone 7a Hudson Valley) appreciate this - I think it would be wise for me to visit a showroom and see what a under-counter wall oven's height is like. That said, I wouldn't want the double-oven range - wouldn't want my main large oven to be the one that is so low to the ground. The less-used second oven seems to be okay for that if I go that route.

Most designs require some kind of compromise and you have to decide which things are most important to you and prioritize. Sometimes doing what is best for you goes against conventional design recommendations. Two 30” ovens was important to me, but didn’t have a great place for a stack. And I’ll be honest, I had a stack in my previous house and hated the top one because it was hard for me to reach across the door and into it (I’m 5’2”). I decided to go with 2 under the counter ovens in our new build. I considered the arrangement you showed with the cooktop directly centered over the 2 ovens, but was told the appliances we choose could not be installed in that configuration. So instead we have the ovens spaced out with the cooktop centered between them. We also went with ovens that are side opening rather than opening down. This way I’m not trying to reach across the door and into the lower oven. I saw one of these installed at below counter height and had absolutely no reservations about having to lift things up, and out of the ovens.

@countrygirl2323 thanks for this info - very reassuring if I go that route. Can you let me know which ovens you went with? That sounds like a smart option for this kind of installment.

@winstir We are going with the Bosch side opening ovens. One will be left opening and one will be right opening. I know Thermador makes a model of side opening ovens too and probably some other companies. The side opening ovens aren’t cheap, and I know I could have gotten stacked double ovens for much cheaper, but this is what worked best in our layout. Giving up the double ovens wasn’t an option for me and the only other way I could have made it work was to go to one of the big, professional style 60” ranges. And I did not want that much cooktop or that much counter space devoted to cooktop.

https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/cooking-baking/wall-ovens/single-ovens/HBLP451LUC

I haven't read through all the comments so forgive me if you addressed this already, but I would vote for a range with a wall oven over by your fridge. That way, you can have an oven nearby for cooktop to oven cooking, and another one off to the side for baking, etc. That would also spread out cooking zones if you have multiple cooks in your kitchen (holidays). If you do a 2 oven stack, I would look at french door ovens, at least for the top one, which would eliminate the hot door at chest height problem. Also, FWIW I have 18" of space next to one side of my range now and it's too small.

The pantry is next to the refrigerator (that's a door, not a cabinet), so there's no room for an oven stack.

@Buehl I was thinking of the back wall/around the corner. I suppose that wastes space in the corner though. I couldn't tell if there was any space there.

Bosch side door ovens - great idea!!

@anj_p "Also, FWIW I have 18" of space next to one side of my range now and it's too small." This is why I'm leaning to the oven in island. With a 27" wall oven (the smallest one I'd go with), I'd have 18" or possibly a bit less due to the wall oven cabinet.

@Buehl At the same time, really wrestling with the choice and how a wall oven would give me the flexibility for the island prep sink.

But like @countrygirl2323 says, most kitchens require some compromise; I guess it's a matter of where the compromise is made: limited landing area next to the cooking area, or no prep sink.