Here it is: Anne V - 01:01pm Sep 9, 1999 PDT Okay - I know how to take meat away from a dog. How do I take a dog away from meat? This is not, unfortunately, a joke. AmyC - 01:02pm Sep 9, 1999 PDT Um, can you give us a few more specifics here? Anne V - They're inside of it. They crawled inside, and now I have a giant incredibly heavy piece of carcass in my yard, with 2 dogs inside of it, and they are NOT getting bored of it and coming out. One of them is snoring. I have company arriving in three hours, and my current plan is to 1. put up a tent over said carcass and 2. hang thousands of fly strips inside it. This has been going on since about 6:40 this morning. AmyC - Oh. My. God. What sort of carcass is big enough to hold a couple of dogs inside? Given the situation, I'm afraid you're not going to be create enough of a diversion to get the dogs out of the carrion, unless they like greeting company as much as they like rolling around in dead stuff. Which seems unlikely. Can you turn a hose on the festivities? Ase Innes-Ker - I'm sorry Anne. I know this is a problem (and it would have driven me crazy), but it is also incredibly funny. Anne V - Elk. Elk are very big this year, because of the rain and good grazing and so forth. They aren't rolling. They are alternately napping and eating. They each have a ribcage. Other dogs are working on them from the outside. It's all way too primal in my yard right now. We tried the hose trick. At someone elses house, which is where they climbed in and began to refuse to come out. Many hours ago. I think that the hose mostly helps keep them cool and dislodges little moist snacks for them. hose failed. My new hope is that if they all continue to eat at this rate, they will be finished before the houseguests arrive. The very urban houseguests. Oh, god - I know it's funny. It's appalling, and funny, and completely entirely representative of life with dogs. Kristen R. - I'm so glad I read this thread, dogless as I am. Dogs in elk. Dogs in elk. Anne V - It's like that childrens book out there - dogs in elk, dogs on elk, dogs around elk, dogs outside elk. And there is some elk inside of, as well as on, each dog at this point. Elizabeth K - Anne, aren't you in Arizona or Nevada? There are elk there? I'm so confused! We definately need to see pics of Gus Pong and Jake in the elk carcass. Anne V - I am in New Mexico, but there are elk in both arizona and nevada, yes. There are elk all over the da*n place. They don't look out very often. If you stand the ribcage on end they scramble to the top and look out, all red. Otherwise, you kinda have to get in there a little bit yourself to really see them. So I think there will not be pictures. CoseyMo - "all red;" I'm not sure the deeper horror of all this was fully borne in upon me till I saw that little phrase. Anne V - Well, you know, the Basenji (that would be Jake) is a desert dog, naturally, and infamous for it's aversion to water. And then, Gus Pong (who is coming to us, live, unamplified and with a terrific reverb which is making me a little dizzy) really doesn't mind water, but hates to be cold. Or soapy. And both of them can really run. Sprints of up to 35 mph have been clocked. So. If ever they come out, catching them and returning them to a condition where they can be considered house pets is not going to be, shall we say, pleasant. CoseyMo - What if you stand the ribcage on end, wait for them to look out, grab them when they do and pull? Anne V - They wedge their toes between the ribs. And scream. We tried that before we brought the elk home from the mountain with dogs inside. Jake nearly took my friends arm off. He's already short a toe, so he cherishes the 15 that remain. Linda Hewitt - Have you thought about calling your friendly vet and paying him to come pick up the dogs, elk and letting the dogs stay at the vets overnight. If anyone would know what to do, it would be your vet. It might cost some money, but it would solve the immediate crisis. Keep us posted. ChristiPeters - Yikes! My sympathy! When I lived in New Mexico, my best friend's dog (the escape artist) was continually bringing home road kill. When there was no road kill convenient, he would visit the neighbor's house. Said neighbor slaughtered his own beef. The dog found all kinds of impossibly gross toys in the neighbor's trash pit. I have always had medium to large dogs. The smallest dog I ever had was a mutt from the SPCA who matured out at just above knee high and about 55 pounds. Our current dog (daughter's choice) is a Pomeranian.A very small Pomeranian. She's 8 months old now and not quite 4 pounds. I'm afraid I'll break her. Lori Shiraishi - Bet you could fit a whole lot of Pomeranians in that there elk carcass! Anne - my condolences on what must be an unbelievable situation! Anne V - I did call my vet. He laughed until he was gagging and breathless. He says a lot of things, which can be summed as *what did you expect?* and *no, there is no such thing as too much elk meat for a dog.* He is planning to stop over and take a look on his way home. Thanks, Lori. I am almost surrendered to the absurdity of it. Lori Shiraishi - "He is planning to stop over and take a look on his way home." So he can fall down laughing in person? Anne V - Basically, yeah. That would be about it. AmyC - No, there is no such thing as too much elk meat for a dog." Oh, sweet lord, Anne. You have my deepest sympathies in this, perhaps the most peculiar of the Gus Pong Adventures. You are truly a woman of superhuman patience. wait -- you carried the carcass down from the mountains with the dogs inside? Anne V - The carcass down from the mountains with the dogs inside? no, well, sort of. My part in the whole thing was to get really stressed about a meeting that I had to go to, and say *yeah, ok, whatever* when it was suggested that the ribcages, since we couldn't get the dogs out of them and the dogs couldn't be left there, be brought to my house. Because, you know - I just thought they would get bored of it sooner or later. But it appears to be later, in the misty uncertain future, that they will get bored. Now, they are still interested. And very loud, one singing, one snoring. Lori Shiraishi - And very loud, one singing, one snoring. wow. I can't even begin to imagine the acoustics involved with singing from the inside of an elk. Anne V - Reverb. lots and lots of reverb. Anne V - I'll tell you the thing that is causing me to lose it again and again, and then I have to go back outside and stay there for a while. After the meeting, I said to my (extraordinary) boss, "look, I've gotta go home for the rest of the day, I think. Jake and Gus Pong are inside some elk ribcages, and my dad is coming tonight, so I've got to get them out somehow." And he said, pale and huge-eyed, "Annie, how did you explain the elk to the clients?" The poor, poor man thought I had the carcasses brought to work with me. For some reason, I find this deeply funny. (weekend pause) Anne V - So what we did was put the ribcages (containing dogs) on tarps and drag them around to the side yard, where I figured they would at least be harder to see, and then opened my bedroom window so that the dogs could let me know when they were ready to be plunged into a de-elking solution and let in the house. Then I went to the airport. Came home, no visible elk, no visible dogs. Peeked around the shrubs, and there they were, still in the elk. By this time, they had gnawed out some little portholes between some of the ribs, and you got the occasional very frightening glimpse of something moving around in there if you watched long enough. After a lot of agonizing, I went to bed. I closed the back door, made sure my window was open, talked to the dogs out of it until I as sure they knew it was open, and then I fell asleep. Sometimes, sleep is a mistake, no matter how tired you are. And especially if you are very very tired, and some of your dogs are outside, inside some elks. Because when you are that tired, you sleep through bumping kind of noises, or you kind of think that it's just the house guests. It was't the house guests. It was my dogs, having an attack of teamwork unprecedented in our domestic history. When I finally woke all the way up, it was to a horrible vision. Somehow, 3 dogs with a combined weight of about 90 pounds, managed to hoist one of the ribcages (the meatier one, of course) up 3 feet to rest on top of the swamp cooler outside the window, and push out the screen. What woke me was Gus Pong, howling in frustration from inside the ribcage, very close to my head, combined with feverish little grunts from Jake, who was standing on the nightstand, bracing himself against the curtains with remarkably bloody little feet. Here are some things I have learned, this Rosh Hashanah weekend: 1. almond milk removes elk blood from curtains and pillowcases, 2. We can all exercise superhuman strength when it comes to getting elk carcasses out of our yard, 3. The sight of elk ribcages hurtling over the fence really frightens the nice deputy sheriff who lives across the street, and 4. the dogs can pop the screens out of the windows, without damaging them, from either side. What I am is really grateful that they didn't actually get the damn thing in the window, which is clearly the direction they were going in. And that the nice deputy didn't arrest me for terrifying her with elk parts before dawn. Imagine waking up with a gnawed elk carcass in your bed, like a real-life "Godfather" with an all-dog cast. There is not enough almond milk in the world to solve an event of that kind.

Based upon what Prarie love wrote, at least some people do believe that hypothyroid-induced seizures are common. Being hypothyroid and having seizures are not necessarily related, though they certainly can be. Unfortunately being that most animals do not get regular annual (twice yearly for older pets) bloodwork when they are healthy, but most people will get bloodwork done when their pet has a seizure, it is often the case that low T4 is discovered right after an animal has a seizure. But the seizure itself can cause low T4, and once the animal's seizures are controlled the T4 returns to normal- or not if the animal is on phenobarbital. This is euthyroid sick syndrome- normally functioning thyroid that is temporarily suppressed due to another disease. Euthyroid sick syndrome can be caused by any disease, including a disease that causes seizures or the seizures themselves. It doesn't hurt to judiciously supplement thyroid hormone in an emergency while waiting for a full thyroid panel, which takes 1-2 weeks (having just gotten one for my dog) as long as you don't go overboard, as oversupplementing thyroid hormone can be cardiotoxic. But you are not really controlling the seizures, you are actually preventing further seizures. In other words, even if a dog's seizures are caused by hypothyroidism, giving thyroid hormone won't do anything to stop the current seizures (explaination follows). The full thyroid panel can sort out euthyroid sick syndrome from true hypothyroidism if it is done prior to starting phenobarb, usually. Some pets refuse to be classified, like my own dog. I did a LOT of reading on this lately because my pathologists were stumped when I asked how hypothyroidism, which causes decreased cellular activity, could possibly cause seziures, which are caused by increased cellular activity. I would have asked the neurologists, but they were in rounds and then left before I could catch them. But I did find the info myself, and it seems that hyperlipidemia (VERY high serum triglycerides and/or cholesterol) may lead to atherosclerosis and then ischemic encephalopathy (low oxygen to the brain) due to hemorrhage or thrombus, causing seizures or other CNS signs (called a stroke in people). There are many causes for hyperlipidemia, hypothyroidism is one. One study showed that dogs that had atherosclerosis were 51 times more likely to be hypothyroid than dogs who did not have artherosclerosis (they showed similar results for dogs with diabetes mellitus). Hyperlipidemia may also cause hypercoagulable syndrome where an animal throws clots, which can end up anywhere. Clinical signs are referrable to location of clot, so if a dog threw a clot into the brain, that would also cause ischemic encephalopathy and possible CNS signs or seizures. Of course, bloodwork would pick up hyperlipidemia (well, a complete panel would show both cholesterol and triglyceride levels; some in-house machines can't do this), so waiting for a thyroid panel just tells you why the hyperlipidemia is present. Because hyperlipidemia may have causes besides hypothyroidism, it is much more important to include cholesterol and triglycerides in a seizure work-up than to include thyroid testing. You can always go back for a cause of hyperlipidemia if needed. That said, you need to have a full thyroid panel done before a pet is placed on phenobarbital because that drug suppresses thyroid hormone in some animals. It does not always cause clinical disease and may not always need to be treated. Once on phenobarb, it is very difficult to impossible to sort out true hypothyroidism from phenobarb-induced thyroid suppression. Without clinical signs though, there doesn't seem to be a need for treatment. Atherosclerosis appears to be rare in dogs overall, but common in dogs with hypothyroidism and diabetes mellitus. The actual incidence is unknown because you need either MRI, CT, or a necropsy to diagnose it. Most people don't have access to MRI or CT for their pets either because of expense or because it isn't available. And most people refuse necropsy. The unfortunate part about atherosclerosis is that once it is in the brain, you can't get rid of it, even by treating the underlying cause. If you can get the animal to stop having seizures and if there isn't too much permanent damage and if you can treat the underlying cause, you may be able to prevent more seizures depending upon how much of the brain is affected by atherosclerosis. The damage is done, and you have to prevent further atherosclerosis by treating the disease. In some cases, the damage to the brain may be too great and the patient dies despite best efforts, even if the cause was "just" hypothyroidism. Controlling hypothyroidism would also prevent further seizures due to hypercoagulable states caused by hyperlipidemia, but the same "ifs" apply. This is why supplementing thyroid hormone when presented with a seizuring animal isn't really necessary, even if the seizures are caused by hypothyroidism. You do need to control the hypothyroidism, but that can wait until the animal stops seizing and you have at least a clue of whether or not the animal is actually hypothyroid. It appears that the reason hypothyroidism is a rare cause of seizures in dogs is that most cases of hypothyroidism are diagnosed and treated long before a patient develops clincally significant hyperlipidemia and subsequent atherosclerosis. It seems that mild hypothyroidism without clinical signs does not cause the a high degree of hyperlipidemia, so the risk of seizures in this case is very small. I guess if you ignore the clinical signs long enough and don't do screening bloodwork on a regular basis, a dog could have severe hypothyroidism and seizures. BTW, collies are prone to hyperlipidemia without hypothyroidism, so in the case of poor Shelby, testing cholesterol and triglycerides is much more important than thyroid testing. You have to know what is common in certain breeds and ages, otherwise you end up running every test in the book and that is a waste of time, money, and effort.

socks -- Thanks for the great photo of Oski. He's lucky to have you. I'm sure he will be FINE once the sedation wears off. As you know, we've had four Westies (one at a time) throughout our marriage (50 years). Charlie died of tongue cancer at nine -- I'm certain from a lesion that happened when he saved my diamond ring from going down the drain during a bath -- and urrped up two weeks later. The resulting lesion was only discovered when I took him in for dental work years later. Rosie came to us too old to take to training. She was an escape artist and was eventually killed on a highway between our house and a shopping mall as we chased after her. Pip was the prize winner in conformation, and as loving as Charlie. We spent a fortune on his skin troubles, but he finally grew out of them at about ten and lived well (deaf and blind) until just before his 17th birthday. Eliot was from Westie Rescue, not entirely Westie as he *shed*. He had an acid stomach, requiring special canned food for the last five years or so. He developed bleeding warts; was deaf and going blind. We coped until he seemed to become senile and incontinent. He was a loving companion until we had to put him down this spring at 15. His constant 'chewie' was a chip from our bluestone-chip driveway. Any stone I accidentally sucked up into the central vac was immediately replaced by him on the next walk. He'd crunch on this and toss it around in his mouth. An acquired 'taste', eh? I think we are done now, but it's kind of you to 'share' Oski. Westies are cute...and tough! Sending a tummy-rub to you, Oski!

M3d, I'm so happy you checked in! I don't know how I missed losing your mom. I can't even imagine the pain you experienced but knowing she wanted to go home to be with your dad made me smile. I don't think you know you've been my inspiration in decorating all these years, even though I'm lousy at it. Are or would you be able to post old pictures you've previously posted? This time I can save them and and drool all day long.