JaG!! What's gotten into you? I don't think I've ever seen you like this. I think you need a hug. I'm arranging for a polar beargram to be delivered (he'll be right at home anyway) - that's all there is too it. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll have to show up with one of those goofy hats and a red cape to distract you. Hi, Kirk. About my leaving this part out: "The trouble is that these studies test the fibre without giving it a charge of any nutrition. All of the studies in question also acknowledge that adjustments in nutrients and irrigation levels would make a difference." Upthread, I said "Just sayin' it don't make it so." I think that kind of applies to these two statements. I cannot imagine anyone doing a grow test on a soil with a particular component (coir) w/o adding appropriate nutrients & then comparing it to a soil that contained proper nutrition. The second half of the statement (All of the studies in question also acknowledge that adjustments in nutrients and irrigation levels would make a difference). Leaves me to wonder WHAT studies were questioned, and WHO acknowledged the horrible disparity? Didn't happen - it's fluff. ... and the part that says "adjustments in nutrients and irrigation levels would make a difference." should have had a "DUH" alert posted in front of it. See why I didn't feel like I was deceiving anyone by leaving out "crucial testimony? The real reason you're under so much pressure is simply because of the 'absolute' statement you made. When you make them, it makes people just want so badly to challenge them. ;o) You kept your cool under pressure, even if you still haven't proven a case (IMO). That part aside, it's much easier to live with "I did go a little overboard saying it can't be beat but it is very easy to use and gets growth rates comparable to other forms of hydro." than the original statement. That's cool - you should be able to express an opinion anytime you feel like it. It doesn't mean you won't hear alternate opinions, but at least you won't get pounced on. ;o) BTW - I was never angry with you - just full of challenge & curiosity to see if you'd hang or give up & turn poopy. You did fine, as far as I'm concerned - I hope there's no hard feelings. Take care. ;o) Al

I know I'll probably take a hit for this, but I'll stand firm on my assertion that the mix of equal parts of peat, black soil, sand, and perlite is a poor choice for houseplants - especially for inexperienced waterers. We can actually quantify what makes a good container soil, as noted above. Aeration is KEY in container soils and this mix WILL compact and WILL NOT hold enough air for an extremely high % of plants to ever grow at or even near their potential genetic vigor. I'm the first to say that it doesn't matter what soils are actually made of, as long as they provide anchoring, nutrient and water-holding ability, and most importantly - they must hold an ample volume of air and allow gas exchange at the rootzone. The soil described above will lack aeration and adequate gas exchange. That a particular person does something for a number of years with results that are acceptable, doesn't mean it should be adopted by others. Saying, "It works for me" is simply a statement and should not be regarded as a clarion call that others should follow blindly. That's all I have to say, and it's just an opinion, but it's easily supported by science and practical experience, and can be corroborated by dozens, if not hundreds of folks I've helped with soil problems over the years. I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to help folks see that there are better choices than the mix we're discussing. Use science, don't fight against it. (I wish someone famous would have said that so I could offer it as a quote & it would carry more weight) ;o) A friend of mine, Joe Pye, comes to mind as I consider the reasoning of some. Joe Pye would get up every morning before work and bang his head against the wall. He always said it worked for him. One day he got tired of banging his head and decided to change, so he kissed his wife goodbye instead. Joe never did go back to banging his head. Moral: If your happy with how things are growing, please maintain the status quo, but at least allow there just might be a better way. Al

tapla said... "Ideal pH for container gardening is about 1 whole number lower than growing in mineral soils" Again, you've simply thrown out another statement un-tethered to anything... I know, I know you intended it to be that way... but why? I've no idea. As far as water holding capacity... you choose to present it based upon weight where dried peat is going to be much lighter than an equal volume of coir and so appear to hold more water but to my thinking basing water holding capacity on volume would likely be more relevant for the gardener (in either container or in soil). This I've done myself and am quite sure coir is going to expand far more with a given volume of water. Water holding capacity is important provided air pore spaces remain equivalent... however perlite, pumice, or vermiculite is so often suggested as an addition with peat potting mixes to make one wonder why the need for these components... likely to maintain the air pore spaces due to compacting as the peat degrades and thus collapses within one growing season, its lignin content notwithstanding (btw, coir has significant lignin content as well, especially considering percentage of weight). And as every gardener knows, maintaining the air pore space is critical for healthy root development and growth of a good many plants (but not all plants however). Holding luff then is the important feature and not necessarily lignin content. Again, a simple comparison study would prove out which material best maintains adequate air pore space over time... so could you point me to one or more of these studies? I don't know the answer but would definitely like to see some studies conducted that could enlighten me on this subject. Until then, I've got to say the jury is still out... there's lots of theory out there but empirical evidence is what's called for to solve this particular inquiry. tapla said "Allelopathy - High levels of phenolic compounds known to be present in coir ... can profoundly affect root morphology, limiting length, number, and size of all orders of roots" From the foregoing statement I gather you're saying that coir has an allelopathic effect on ALL rooted plants? and thus you cannot and/or need not supply a list of affected plants... is this a correct reading of what you're meaning to infer? I'm surprised that this allelopathy of coir is not mentioned on the Internet somewhere... or at least from the simple yahoo search I've done so far. I'm so intrigued by this new piece of information that I'm going to take it from a theory and try to come up with empirical evidence of it by planting some radishes in dixie cups... a half dozen in a 50/50 with peat/soil and another half dozen in 50/50 with coir/soil... the soil will be the same (coming from my garden to supply the micros and biology) and then water the same amount each day with one teaspoon of Jack's Classic into a gallon of water. In approximately two weeks I'll wash the soil mix off the roots and compare. Do you see any complicating factors I should be aware of before beginning this little experiment? I'm excited. (BTW, the reason for radishes is merely speed of germination and the roots will not swell if I end the experiment too soon... I don't have the time or patience to carry on anything that's going to take more than 2 weeks at the most to complete... also I already have everything I need to do this in the shed right now). EDIT: In my search for allelopathic connection between phenolic compounds and plant root growth I came upon these tidbits from two separate sources... make of them what you will but they sure seem to complicate matters with previous claims of allelopathy of coir over peat... "Once the coir is freed from the fiber it goes through a maturation process to stabilize the product and this can take up to 6 months. During this process salt, tannins, and phenolic compounds are removed. It is buffered, washed and calcium nitrate is added to displace sodium and balance the pH." "Sphagnum and the peat formed from it do not decay readily because of the phenolic compounds embedded in the moss's cell walls." So does that mean peat too is allelopathic to plant roots? If so, then its a wash and I'd be wasting my time conducting the simple radish experiment? Final UPDATE: Okay I give up... After a single search I've already found several references to peat and peat bogs as being allelopathy to the germination of certain plants... I'm going to call the allelopathy claims against coir and peat a wash.

the whole idea for the home gardener, is after many years, replacing your need for store bought peat moss with home made compost. It takes a long time. For instance, my potting mix is 5 parts pinewood fines mulch, 1 part peat moss, 1 part perlite. But gradually I am able to replace the peat moss with compost. It takes forever. So yes, everything goes in the compost pile. Unused peat moss, the bones from lambchops, leftover miracle grow potting mix, coffee filters, last year's tomatoe vines. You can speed things up by adding alfalfa pellets (Rabbit Food you buy at the local hardware or Walmart.) It gets really hot. At some point you ask yourself, "Is this a suitable substitue for peat moss?" And if the answer is "Yes" you have done your small part to save the planet (and a little of your wallet.)