Calling StrawChicago - re Clay/Alkaline Soil & Amendments/Fertilizers
Comments (162)
BirdsLoveRosesSoCalCoast
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked BirdsLoveRosesSoCalCoastRelated Discussions
Amending sandy soil and fertilizing for apples
Comments (27)Fruitnut, well, I've never been called on to install fruit trees in a former corn field to I'll defer to your wisdom here. I am called on to establish bearing age fruit trees in all kinds of soil and sometimes on sites where there's hardly any. Establishment of these trees is more problematic than planting one year trees by a long shot. This being my main experience, I tend to error on the side of caution to assure their survival, because replacement is expensive. Dry fruit farming commercially is not done in neglect and if I was installing even whips on a site where the owner wasn't going to be paying much attention, I might include some compost amending as I describe here just to help assure quick establishment, even in the case of neglect and drought. Of course growing quality fruit is a balancing act and too much vigor is the worst thing for producing high quality well colored fruit. When I started my own orchard we were in several years of consecutive or almost consecutive drought summers. I got in the habit of mulching my fruit trees every year because my well was insufficient to spare water for the trees. This is the first year where I've regretted having done that. With all the rain we've had, my enriched soil may be contributing to bland fruit this time. Even if you get the balance right for an average season, it may not be perfect for an exceptional one....See MoreWhat class of OGR is best for alkaline clay soil?
Comments (29)regardless of what the stats say on the soil maps, Strawbs, I can definately say my soil is alkaline - not as much as yours but rhodies and azaleas are a distant memory from my northern childhood - our black silty fen soil is top class for cabbages, celery and onions and sugar beet. Anyhow, unfortunately, I am not much of a guide to soil ph and roses since this is an issue which rarely comes up - at least not as much as mildew, rust or blackspot. The only dodgy roses (chlorotic, needing regular sequestrene) I grow have had too close a brush with rugosas - and one of my only Austins, Wild Edric is definately a pale and pasty specimen....although Compte de Champagne comes awfully close and I couldn't say what its parentage is. Annoying, as the rugosas are generally happy with well drained, sandy soil (I am on calcareous grassland. Of course, I do not have the extremes of temperature that you have so I have been able to adopt a blase attitude to ph as it is practically impossible to actually kill a rose here. Nonetheless, not dying is emphatically not the same as thriving - there are roses which are doing considerably better than others. I did expect china roses would be a bit feeble but have surprised me with their general willingness to grow and bloom - Sophie's Perpetual, Mutabilis and Sanguinea have been stars. Even more surprising, the infamous bourbons do well for me too. I would have to say that the majority of my roses are species or close hybrids although I have a weakness for Harkness floribundas. I am incredibly fortunate in that Beales and Trevor White (2 out of 3 old rose growers in the UK) along with Harkness and Legrice are based in East Anglia with similar soil and climate conditions as myself....and fervently believe that this conflation of conditions has a whopping bearing on the subsequent health of the rose once it is planted in my garden so I think you are right, Strawbs, in pondering specific nursery circumstances before considering buying from them....See MoreRoot rot with in-ground citrus; advice to re-plant in clay soil
Comments (8)I agree with Evan and John on all their advice. I think they are nitrogen starved and lacking water. Clay soil is full of lots of mineral nutrients and in CA we rarely have to add phosphorus or potassium, in fact it's not recommended to add phosphorus as it can be too much for most CA soils since there is plenty there already. However, it's almost always lacking Nitrogen. And your trees show classic nitrogen deficiency. Even though your fertilizer is for citrus, 8 is pretty low for nitrogen, at least for in the ground. At that level though you can safely feed monthly, which you may need to do. That amount of water was probably fine when it was cooler but as we are rapidly warming up all through the state, you need to up your irrigation frequency also. Unless you are watering everyday in summer, you most likely will not have root rot issues. But if you just want to be sure, get some Agri-Fos. It's the best product to combat Phytopthora. You can get it at most good garden centers. Usually once or twice a year is good, but of course always read the label. I've had good luck with it on two very old orange trees with chronic gumosis. It's stopped the progression and holds it at bay, and they've actually grown new bark and more canopy since I've been using the Agri-fos twice a year. One last thing, (sorry for the wall of text) the holes and chewed spots look like you may have had an Orange Dog Caterpillar at some time. It's pretty much the only pest that eats citrus leaves. As your trees get bigger the caterpillar is not much of a threat, but they can be hard on young trees....See MoreDo soil amendment products really help our adobe clay soils?
Comments (34)Someone here is having good results with amending clay with 50 percent sand and then topping the area with sandy loam. The nurseryman who runs Laguna Hills Nsy and gave the soils class takes the stock he buys and removes most of the mix around the roots. Then he replaces it in peat moss, perlite, pumice,sand and some charcoal. He would add more sand in the mix he sells bagged but the bags would rip or be too expensive to ship. The charcoal is there because the world's best soils have some charcoal content. A building supply in Costa Mesa sells something called Rick's mix that is sandy loam and decomposed granite for improving clay. I have used the best potting mixes I could buy and watch the plants die off in a year. With the mix from Laguna Hills, it doesn't happen. Now I use a mix of my own soil, sand and the Laguna Hills formula. I have been making charcoal all winter and sifting it to throw out the ash which is alkaline. In the old days the nurseries planted in Sandy loam and sold bareroot. No one amended the holes or they planted high in large mounds or raised beds if drainage was poor. Now the wholesalers who planted in real soil are being edged out by those who plant in composted wood. The plants grow fast and are lighter to ship but eventually the breakdown of the planting material kills the plant. You can slow the process by letting the mix dry out almost completely before watering again, but it stresses the plants, especially in our warm climate. In the old days, a nursery could water every day with no root problems at all. A nursery could keep their stock for years and water every day and feed once a month until it sold. Now it's a race to sell the plant before the mix degrades and the roots die. The nurseries have to move their stock quick before then. Even if you plant it in good soil, the plant might not make it to five years because the mix around the trunk has become poisonous to the plant. Some plants grow fast enough to get roots out beyond into good soil. Arborists use augers to drill out holes around the trunk and backfill with sand to get the oxygen into the toxic area. You can also dig into one side and replace with 100 percent soil and six months later do the other side. The formula is stay away from three times the diameter of the trunk when removing roots. That was the formula for moving plants sold in soil wrapped with burlap. Any plant you fix needs to be shaded for two weeks. You can also help them by spraying the leaves with 1 gallon water 1 oz Karo syrup 1 oz seaweed 1 oz fish fertilizer a little wetting agent I hope this helps anyone trying to save a plant. I think it's rotten that plants are being sold that they know will have problems later on. People think it's their fault. The landscape reflects the trend towards only plants that can overcome the crappy potting mix and we all get taught wrongly to add this stuff to the soil at planting time....See More
strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoBirdsLoveRoses: That's the same experience I had with vinegar & sulfate of potash !! Thanks for sharing, but it works in greener leaves & more blooms.
My B.S. is in Computer Science & worked as a C-programmer but I like chemistry and biology classes more (took microbiology, biochemistry, organic chemistry, inorganic). I'm glad those classes can help us growing healthy roses.
Years ago I wonder if the antibiotics in chicken manure killed all the beneficial nitrogen-fixing bacteria ... So I bought ORGANIC chicken-manure compost (Charlie's compost) on Amazon. I put 1 gallon of that in the planting hole of Pink Peace. Pink Peace became VERY GAUDY pink (phosphorus shifts bloom to deeper pink), then came down with black spots despite excellent drainage. I have a 2nd Pink Peace in alkaline clay which is very healthy.
I notice the same with my many tomatoes. The tomato with the most high phosphorus cow manure in the planting hole has the most fruits, but the plant "expires" quickly with upper leaves turned pale, then brown (severe zinc deficiency), plus lowest leaves turn brown (potassium deficiency). The tomato with the most potassium (red-lava-rock & sulfate of potash) ... stays healthy until frost kills it, it does give fruits, but once at a time, rather a bunch.
The neighbor, a Ph. D. in botany uses SOLUBLE high-phosphorus but low-salt fertilizer (made from soy), and his tomato "expires" quickly today, see below pic. taken 9/7/20:
Here's my tomato, still green & lush & healthy with lots of composted-grass-clippings for moisture & nitrogen. Pic. taken during 3 weeks of hot & dry & no rain, 1st week of Sept. Tomatoes planted in moist clay & high potassium & nitrogen stay green and give fruits until November.
Here's tomato with red-lava-rock (high potassium) in planting hole. It's next to a tree but the planting hole is fixed with gypsum to fluff up alkaline clay. Gypsum has 21% sulfur for growth & green-up leaves. In hot & dry & watered with fixed alkaline-tap-water in VERY DRY clay.
Below is a tomato NEXT TO A TREE & very dry. The soil was NOT fixed, it's just rock-hard alkaline clay, with lots of tree-roots underneath. The only fertilizer I give is sulfate of potash mixed with vinegar to fix my alkaline-tap-water. Growth is stunt but decent fruits. I should had given it sulfur to fix the stunt-growth. Pic. taken 9/7/20.
strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoaerbk7b Banana skin is best composted to release potassium. I tried soaking chopped up banana-skin in water & used the water to water roses, but that didn't work. But once composted, it will release potassium.
Spirulina works like kelp ... but spirulina has less salt. Both have lots of trace elements to green-up leaves.
Tree-roots do invade roses and steal nutrients. I spent 1 month digging down to 2 feet to put cement blocks to stop my cherry tree. I did the same to stop Norway Spruce. Both trees are 20-year old. But the 20-year-old river-birch tree is a monster, so husband helped. He borrowed a rototiller and cut through the shallow root, plus used a pick ax to chop the big roots. Our clay was so hard we had to wait until it rained yesterday. My job is to stack up cement blocks down to 2 feet to STOP TREE-ROOTS. Tree-roots WENT UP into my raised bed, and they also WENT UP into my pots. Below is the trench we dug up this weekend to stop tree-roots. Note the tomato next to the trench got invaded by tree-roots:
Another shot of the trench we dug down to 2 feet to stop river birch's tree-roots. It rained 0.45 inch., but the clay is still dry. Note the clay-clumps (the size of citrus fruits):
DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5aerbk7b
3 years ago
jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
rosecanadian
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5rosecanadian
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agooutsteelers: That's how my soil was like (at pH 7.7) medium-blue in red-cabbage juice after raining (also tested by EarthCo.), versus horse manure at pH 8 (very dark-blue). That was before I installed 6 rain-barrels.
My tap-water is at pH 9 (listed on village's website), plus I double-checked with fish-tank litmus paper. All potting soils and my rooting mediums are clear juice above sample, or neutral pH. The below recent pic. from the internet is most accurate:
DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA)
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA)
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoDDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoRe-post the info. I gave to Carol (Rosecanadian) as to what's another sub. for gypsum:
The only reason why I use ACIDIC gypsum is: It's cheap at nearby Menards only $5 for a 40 lb. bag. Second reason is it breaks up my rock-hard-clay instantly, but gypsum is SO CORROSIVE that it kills earthworms instantly, plus kills ANY ROOTS instantly.
I have zero luck putting gypsum on top to break up the hardened top layer .. when acidic rain hits, it melts the 21% sulfur in gypsum to HURT ROOTS. Roses always break out in black spots with gypsum on top.
I HAVE FAR BETTER RESULT with acidic crack corn (pH 4) to break up hardened soil. When I topped roses with crack corn in hot & dry summer, roses leaves GET VERY SHINY & glossy. Cracked corn is cheap $8 for 50 lb. at feed store. Alfalfa pellets is more expense at $20 for 40 lb. bag, also at feed store. Alfalfa pellets at pH 5.8 have growth hormone, but cracked corn has more nutrients, plus more acidic at pH 4.
Cracked corn at pH 4 is great to break up rock-hard clay. Crack corn can hold water at 4-times its weight, so excellent in keeping the soil below moist for a long time. When I top-dressed with cracked corn, my roses get shiny-leaves thanks to nutrients and fatty acids in cracked corn. Cracked is acidic, so it helps to neutralize the ALKALINE tap water. But I don't recommend using cracked corn during heavy rain. pH of rain is 4.5 here, and pH of cracked corn is 4, TOO ACIDIC.
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/healthy-eating/the-nutrition-of-corn.html
Carbohydrates – 82%Fats – 10%Protein – 8%
A half cup of corn contains roughly the following nutrients:
- Fat – 1.2g
- Sodium – 76mg
- Potassium – 347mg
- Carbohydrate – 41.2g
- Protein – 5.29g
- Fiber – 2.4g
- Vitamin A - 11%
- Vitamin C - 33%
- Calcium - 11%
- Iron - 10%
- Thiamin (B1) - 0.045mg
- Riboflavin (B2) - 0.182mg
- Niacin (B3) - 2.157mg
- Vitamin B6 - 10.2%
- Vitamin B12 - 0%
- Magnesium - 57mg
- Panthothenic Acid - 0.999mg
- Zinc - 5.6%
- Manganese - 0.091mg
From the above, it's the fatty acid that made roses' leaves shiny when I topped with ACIDIC cracked corn during hot & dry to neutralize my alkaline tap water at pH 9. Vitamin C and vitamin A are essential for plant growth, same with B-vitamins. Calcium is adequate at 11%. The #1 vitamin for plant growth is C ... cracked corn has 33% vitamin C.
But cracked corn needs to mix in at least 2 months in advance so its acidity at pH 4 can helps speed up drainage in hardened soil.
NPK of corn meal is 1.6 / 0.65 / 0.4 .... that's better than horse manure NPK of 0.44 / 0.17 / 0.35. The biggest drawback of horse manure is the salt-content, plus the de-worming medications given to horse.
Whole-grain corn's minerals profile is impressive, with 39% magnesium, 23% iron, 29% phosphorus, 10% potassium, 30% manganese, 37% selenium, 12% copper, and 15% zinc. I tested cracked corn in topping my roses, plus breaking up rock-hard clay for several roses: Tchaikovsky, Radio times, Carding Mill, and Dee-lish. Tchaikosky was the ONLY rose that shot up to 3 feet plus 10 blooms per flush as 1st-year-own-root, in only 4 hrs. of sun. All 4 roses are my best performers for the past 6 to 10 years. Below link shows Tchaikosky as 2nd year own-root with cracked corn in the planting hole (mixed in months in advance):
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.37084.1&tab=36&qn=1&qc=0
Below is own-root Bolero topped with cracked corn during hot & dry summer and with alkaline tap water at pH 9:
DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5strawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoYes, it's the same stuff to feed chickens. But it has to be mixed into rock-hard clay months in advance. It's very acidic at pH 4 which neutralized my rock-hard clay at pH 7.7. I like it better than pine-fines (too dry and zero nutrients).
DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) thanked strawchicago z5DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA)
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agolast modified: 3 years agoBelow is a map across USA to check what type of soil one has:
From the above pic, I'm in the gray area, with Mollisols soil, "Mollisols are characterized by a significant accumulation of humus in the uppermost layer, which is almost always formed under native grass vegetation. They are highly arable soils used principally for growing grain and cereal crops." When my house was built, the builder got soil across the street (from the cornfield) to top my garden. From Wikipedia: "Mollisols' parent material is typically base-rich and calcareous and include limestone, loess, or wind-blown sand." True, I'm next to a limestone quarry. My clay in IL is black like the below pic. of drummer silty clay loam, but more clay thus clump together.If you google "soil type for YOUR STATE", it will bring up link like below for my Illinois.
https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/education/Pages/ILStateSymbols.aspx
"Drummer silty clay loam is a rich, fertile prairie soil that was declared the Illinois State Soil in 2001. This dark, deep soil was first identified in Ford County in 1929. It can be found in 1,500,000 acres of land in Illinois. Drummer is one of the most fertile and productive soils in the world.
The topsoil of drummer silty clay loam is about 16 inches deep and is very dark brown to black in color.One reason for the large layer of topsoil is the prairie vegetation that grew above it. As deep roots from the prairie grasses died and decomposed, they left behind nutrients and organic matter in the soil.
The subsoil layer is more than two feet thick. This layer is gray-brown and has more clay particles in it than did the topsoil layer. The gray color comes from moisture that is locked in the soil.
The bottom layer, or substratum, starts three and a half to five feet below the surface. This layer is dark gray with spots or “mottles” of OTHER colors and is made up mostly of soil material called loam. Few plant roots can penetrate this soil."
Below is how the top 1 foot of my clay looks like (Drummer Silty Clay). I also have lots of limestone and dolomitic lime mixed in ... a few rocky spots have chicory weed (blue flowers, very pretty). From the web: Chicory It is common along roadsides and in other wild, untamed areas, especially in limestone soils.
Below pic. is the icky-clay-loam, at below 3 feet, roots can't go through this dense layer so I throw it away since it impedes drainage. "When it is very wet, it swells to retains water, which makes it difficult to work with. Over time, this poor drainage can also stunt plant growth." https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-clay-loam.htm
Zillion-petals roses like the top pic. of black clay: calcium & magnesium rich alkaline clay. Magnesium is what makes clay clumps together or "sticky". Black clay is also rich in iron, and red roses are most vigorous in my garden. Red roses have a higher need for iron.
rosecanadian
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agorosecanadian
3 years ago
oursteelers 8B PNW
3 years agostrawchicago z5
3 years agorosecanadian
3 years ago
Jemma Z10Socal
11 months agostrawchicago z5
11 months agolast modified: 11 months ago
Above is internet picture of multiflora-rootstock: Note it's like thin spaghetti strands, and THICKER fibrous roots THAN OWN-ROOTS. Note the "small carrots" top of the roots.
Above is Dr.Huey rootstock dug up from my garden. Note the LONG & THICK neck making Dr.Huey-rootstock very long. It declined in poor drainage clay since I could not dig hole deep enough for its root (we have to bury the crown 6 inch. below ground for cold zone 5a).
Above is OWN-ROOT Big-Purple hybrid tea which I dug up. Note the roots are tangled together in a round mass right below the green branches. Own-root are CLUSTER, rather than a long-stick like Dr.Huey, or separate "spagetti-strands" like Multiflora-rootstock.
jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6