Hardwood floor sound proofing without a vapor barrier.

3 years ago

We just had a new home built. Our hardwood is assimilating right now. To quiet the sound from the 2nd floor, I’m told the best sound proofing is QuietWalk Plus, however, I don’t need the vapor barrier for the 2nd floor. At least...I don’t believe I do. QuietWalk Plus is expensive. I will need about 1400 sq. ft. for the 2nd floor. Is there a good alternative sound proofing that does not have the vapor barrier? It seems foolish to pay so much extra for the vapor barrier when it is not needed. Also, we have a basement but it has a low ceiling and will only be used for storage. I know I will need a vapor barrier for the 1st floor. How necessary is it for sound proofing? The retailer we bought the hardwood from said a sound barrier makes even walking on it quieter.

Featured Answer

SJ McCarthy

3 years ago

Again, how much ECHO to you like on the first floor? How much noise do you want to travel "up" into the space above? How much do you love the 'clackity clack" of shoes?

A solid surface (aka hardwood) creates NOISE with footfalls. That noise goes in all 6 directions (up, down, side to side to side). I HIGHLY recommend you do the same for the first level as you do the second level. You will HATE yourself for NOT DOING IT. Because it means you have to rip it all out to get RID of the noise you just created.

As a cork flooring expert and someone who has dealt with 'echos' in a space for 6.5 years (forget up and down noise...just the ECHO created by TV noise bouncing down hallways) I am telling you the echo is impressive. And nerve destroying.

I don't have any skin in the game. I'm just a flooring pro who has dealt EXTENSIVELY with acoustics as part of her job description. I'm telling you that you WILL notice a difference. The extra uptick in price is NOTHING compared to the price of doing it over.

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Comments (6)

SJ McCarthy
3 years ago
Cork underlay with 3mm or 6mm = awesome sound deadening properties. It can be used with a glue down install or a floating wood floor install. Do NOT nail through.

QuietWalk has the ability to be NAILED down. This is SUPER important if you are looking at a nail-in-place hardwood. Yes acoustic underlayments are 'expensive'. The acoustic value is HARD to achieve. It takes TONS of engineering to get it right.

Quietwalk, once pierced should become a vapour retarder = acceptable over wood. I know it 'feels' expensive ($1/sf = $1400 more) but NEVER go cheap on flooring. Ever.

The biggest complaints people have with wood floors on a second floor = noise transfer from up-to-down. And the second biggest complain = noise transfer down hallways and underneath doors.

If I told you, for a mere $1400, you could get rid of BOTH issues would you think it a great insurance plan? Probably.

I counsel my clients to think of their floors as if they were a roof. How much did you spend on the roof? Did you go cheap with the insulation or the water protection (eaves, downspouts, etc)? Probably not. A floor INSIDE takes the SAME ABUSE as a roof on the outside. It is the SINGLE MOST abused 'finish' in your home. Everything touches the floors. Gravity means anything that goes up must come down...and when it comes down it makes noise. A good acoustic insulation will make you happier than a floor without.

Go ahead and get people to turn on a stereo upstairs on the wooden subfloor. Now get them to talk on their phones or talk to one another in the same room (as the stereo). Stand down stairs and see how much you can hear. Now move to a room on the same LEVEL as the stereo and close the door. How much do you hear?

A wooden subfloor has roughly the same acoustic value as wooden floors. What you hear today is what you can expect to hear TOMORROW. How happy will you be with that level of noise transfer? Roughly 90% of people can't stand it. The other 10% couldn't care less. The question becomes are you part of the 90% (I know I am) or are you in the 10% camp?
Terri Wilson thanked SJ McCarthy
Terri Wilson
Original Author
3 years ago
I neglected to mention that the flooring is 3/4 solid, nail down. We'll probably bite the bullet and go with the QuietWalk on the 2nd floor. The 1st floor is even larger so our plans were to just go with the vapor barrier down there. I'm not convinced that spending so much extra on QuietWalk on the 1st floor is necessary, since the basement will not be finished.
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I think the key word is "floating". This isn't a floating floor, it's a naildown. I don't believe it's going to be nearly as effective in a naildown situation, as most of the noise that is "muffled" in a floating situation is from the fact that there isn't good solid contact with the subflooring, as in nailed down. WHen there is good solid contact with a subfloor, the majority of the noise produced is from the reflective (rather than absorbtive) nature of the hardwood surface itself. Sound just echoes more into the air from a hardwood floor than it does from a sound absorbtive carpet floor. No amount of underlayment is going to alter the nature of the sound echo produced because the flooring is a hard floor product and not a textile based flooring product. It may be possible that installing a manufacture approved for naildown installation sound barrier can help with some of the percussive sound transmission from floor to floor, but it'll never be as quiet downstairs as if carpet on padding was the second floor material. And, you'll still get sound echoes upstairs that travel through the walls and open areas, simply because the wood surface reflects sound. You can't alter the basic nature of a hardwood floor. You can use rugs and additional soft furnishings to moderate the sound absorbtive properties and mitigate some of that reflectivity, but you'd have to practically cover all of the rooms wall to wall with rugs to make it be as quiet as carpet could be.
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Rift and quartered flooring is going to be more stable because of the movement in cell structure. Vapor barrier underneath the flooring is something that is a minimal investment for an invaluable benefit. You might be fine without the vapor barrier 90% of the time, however, if you were to have a warranty claim this is a big red flag for any flooring inspector. The vapor barrier does not completely block moisture from coming through, rather it allows moisture to pass through at a safe level for your hardwood flooring. A good example is if the basement floods and you have the vapor barrier installed underneath your flooring on the main level, it might save your hardwood from cupping. Having finish on all sides of a plank is useful for slowing down the moisture changes in the wood allowing it to withstand small fluctuations in humidity. Flooring with grooves on the bottom side allow for the planks to get more surface area which is the most important for glue down installation. After analyzing your particular situation, I feel like with a 6" plank it is best to opt for an engineered product with a decent wear layer (3 mm or more). If you can get quarter sawn that would be the best, but this will be a more costly option and limit your choices because not all manufactures produce their floors in quarter sawn. The main thing to monitor is moisture, try and keep things between 35-55% RH and you should be safe.
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The acclimation you've been recommended to use is generally how we've done floors forever EXCEPT when using wider planks. As was noted above, have the plywood and wood checked. If they're too far apart the area can be dehumidified to bring the plywood moisture down and/or the wood will add moisture if it's particularly dry. Make sure the contractor is putting a vapor/moisture barrier (not retarder) between the concrete and the plywood. I don't recommend any barrier between the wood and plywood. Some pros have been burned using (probably cheap) water based finishes and refuse to use anything other than oil based. Others think you should use only the newest technology finishes and exclusively use water based. We use both. With a stained, hand-scraped White Oak, I would choose oil based polyurethane. No water based finish compares to the durability of oil modified. Considering the cost, it's a no-brainer unless you have special circumstances. As to staples vs. nails, we've used both and seen little difference in the performance. My preference would be for nails but the industry seems to have moved more toward staples.
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It sounds like this floor covering will never be able to come up for replacement. I am not able to process that for a surface coating. How about some nice tar paper or other reasonable barrier instead? And why would you want to trap moisture or spills on the bottom side? That is not allowed on a vertical installation of wood, so why here in the horizontal application? Dry wood lasts, and holds its finish. There is a hvac space below so it is not exposed to moist air? That moisture barrier thinking for a second story flooring confuses me. Is the glue in the osb insufficient? I thought it was rated for construction exposure to weather, and that is pretty good by itself. Is there a plan to edge treat the tongue and groove to prevent squeeks from polished lignin over time? At least a wax? That hardwood is dense with lignin is why I ask. And that subfloor is probably not 2 layers glued and screwed, but I read it was glued to the joists so that is a plus. But unless it is thick it will move a lot. If it is thick it will move but very little. The movement will polish the mating surfaces and thus noise. Also, The wider the board, the more the expansion. even quartersawn. What is your expectation of joint expansion across the year? The very building itself can grow and shrink is why I ask. I assume it will be coated in plastic poly sealant instead of oiled?
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S F
3 years ago
Terri, have you installed the Quiet walk plus? I see SJ McCarthy has a ton of experience and was kind enough to respond to a similar question I posted (thanks SJ!) but I am interested in homeowners experience with quiet walk plus. It just seems weird to me that there are no other options for nail down hardwood underlayment that have any sound dampening properties so I want to hear from a real user.
PRO
G & S Floor Service
3 years ago
You can use flooring mastic for a sound dampener and also, there are 1/16" rubber underlayment designed for sound proofing. It will cost more than Quiet Walk or Quiet Walk Plus for material and installation.

If, Quiet walk is out of your budget. Just purchase any foam underlayment from Home Depot and nail through it. It doesn't compare to Quiet Walk for performance but, will cut down on cost and a little bit of the noise. Your flooring will be wavy and when the underlayment become fully compressed. Your floor boards will become loose and squeaky.
S F
3 years ago
Thanks G&S!

Hardwood floor sound proofing without a vapor barrier.

SJ McCarthy

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Terri Wilson
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Hardwood floor sound proofing without a vapor barrier.

SJ McCarthy

Comments (6)

SJ McCarthy

Terri WilsonOriginal Author

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Terri Wilson
Original Author