Oh yes, you definitely want new everything if you are remodeling to that level. We just went with Delta controls and Moen Magnetix heads for a remodel and love them. Yes, you can mix brands. Look at the Brizo Litze articulated shower flanges and you may be able to skip the slider bar after all. Yes, there are a couple of different thermostatic features of different Delta controls. It's been long enough that I forget exactly the options, but you could certainly read up on their website about the options. We ordered our controls from Faucet Warehouse. The Moen Magnetix heads are awesome. Get the smaller one if you choose this because the larger ones don't have as good a water pressure as the smaller. We have 5 of these in 2 homes in 3 of the different finishes they offer, and we're going on several years now loving them all. A couple we bought at Lowe's or Home Depot, and a few we ordered online.

Hire a designer, even if it’s online. There’s too much here. Your contractor isn’t doing his job either if you have to go online for 147 easily Googleable questions.

Back2work, thank you for answering. I read Delta's website and Googled for information for about 5 hours last night. I read about the various valves, but I don't understand what I need to buy first. I like the idea of the magnetic dock that both Delta and Moen have, but my grandson (autistic) will not seat the head properly. He is getting to the age that he won't want me supervising him in the shower. I think we will be using a regular hook that holds the shower head. I found that Brizo articulated flange a couple of weeks ago after I had posted a question about whether something like that existed. I think we ordered our kitchen faucet from Faucet Warehouse. Thank you for reminding me about it.

Live_wire_oak, I am sure your time is very valuable, so please don't feel that you have to respond to ANY of my posts ever again. Just skip them. I have tried to ignore your negative criticism, because I have noticed that you do it to everyone who posts on Houzz. I don't need to be scolded about anything. This website is not just for PROS, it is for anyone who has questions. Please do not waste your valuable time on answering my posts. It is such a waste of time for you and me.

So, I still need to know if I choose the shower head first. Thanks.

You can choose the shower head first or last or in between. Any shower head will work with any valve. They aren't connected. The shower head is threaded onto a shower supply arm, which is in turn threaded onto the riser (behind the finished wall) that comes from the valve. Of course, this is assuming that you aren't using an exposed type of shower plumbing. The trim for the valve, however, is specific to the particular valve you choose. It has to be the same brand as the valve, and has to be made to fit the valve. Did you go to an actual plumbing showroom (not a big box store) and tell them that you are putting in a new shower and need all the valves and trims for it?

I would recommend a thermostatic valve. They're more expensive, but totally worth it in my opinion.

You don't need to know about the cartridges in the valve. It sounds like you would not be doing any repair work on them in the future. Delta is easier to repair than Moen. I like Hansgrohe and Delta.

The only way to change from a handheld to a fixed head is to install the elbow for the handheld at the same location as you would want the fixed head in the future. You would then have a fixed head but not a hand held. You can't add a fixed head in a different location after the fact. You could, however, plumb for a fixed head and then not not use it. I don't actually see a need for a fixed head at all as long as the hand held is on a slider bar. I don't ever put it fixed heads anymore. It is a myth that there aren't any hand held shower heads as powerful as fixed heads.

If you install both a hand held and a fixed head, you will need a diverting valve, or a valve with a separate diverter. It depends on what you ultimately choose.

Catbuilder, thank you so much! Sometimes, I read too much and begin doubting my understanding. Ok, so if we might want a fixed head in the future WITH a handheld, then we need to do it now. I am with you...I see no reason for a fixed head with a slider bar. I also had read about handhelds not having the same pressure as fixed heads so I was concerned.

We went to a plumbing showroom, Heatwave Supply. I did tell them that we gutted the bathroom and needed new valves as well as shower heads and controls. They did not mention valves at all. We are looking at either pressure balanced or thermostatic, and leaning toward the thermostatic. It depends on the labor costs to install. If the cost is too high, our budget may force us to buy pressure balanced.

We can't trust anyone locally since we live in a very rural lake area. Too many people have lied about having insurance, licenses, and experience. Even their "recommendations" have lied to us. We have spent a lot of money redoing electrical, plumbing, and wall texture that local "pros" have screwed up. My pool plumbing is still screwed up after the plumbers assured me they were experts on pool plumbing. I have NEVER had trouble with contractors until we moved here. I can't even get anyone to give me a bid that details what materials they will use and the process. They like to have carte blanche! I can't afford to have the work done without knowing the end cost. Our siding contractor billed us an additional $7,000 above his bid that we had agreed upon.

As far as choosing shower and controls before the valve, from what I read last night, the valve depends on the shower controls. That made me think the valve was chosen last.

"Thermostatic shower valves contain a device that turns off the flow of water if it goes above a certain temperature. Shower valves are classified by the number of controls that they have, anywhere from 1 to 3. Overall, larger numbers of controls mean a greater degree of fine control over pressure and temperature. Shower valves can also have between 1 and 3 outlets. Shower valves with 1 outlet involve exactly the minimum you expect from a shower, which is a showerhead; however, more outlets involve more options. A second outlet might connect to a hand held shower head, or it might be connected to body jets."

Is this info correct? I must decide if I want 1 or 2 controls, and 1 or 2 outlets? Thermostatic would require 2 controls. Fixed and handheld would require 2 outlets. Pressure balanced can use 1 control on some models and 2 controls on other models. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, I need to buy the shower head first, then figure out the depth of the finished tile wall so the plumber can know how deep to install the valve...and the valve with the correct number of controls and outlets?

The plumbers never have parts in stock so I need to have the valve here. Otherwise, it will take weeks for them to finish the job.

I have been waiting 3-4 weeks for estimates to move plumbing in the wall, level the floor, and break up concrete to move a drain 4-6" vs breaking up concrete for a tub drain which has to be moved 12-18". One person only said $600.00 more to put in a tub. That doesn't tell me what is included...just the concrete removed? Concrete removed and replumbed? Concrete removed, replumbed, and tub installed? I need to know the cost before I decide if I want a tub or a shower base. I am so frustrated with the lack of progress. Shower base needs 5 weeks lead time.

Plumbing questions drive me crazy!

Maybe I should have said choose shower controls first...not shower head.

@Peke I just remembered from another of your threads that you are preparing this lake house to sell and move closer to Tulsa to be nearer family, so with that in mind, I'd encourage you to just go with a lower cost option and purchase both at the same time, if possible, to be able to move forward with the project. Virtually any control from Delta will serve you well, and you can pair it with whatever head you want. If you've never experienced a Moen Magnetix shower head, I think you'd be impressed at how easy it would be even for the autistic youngster to handle. We have found the Magnetix system much easier to operate than traditional hook models with less chance of dropping and injuring toes.

Selling this house immediately changes things. How long do you plan on staying in the house?

I can't emphasize enough that the shower head can be changed at any time, and it has nothing to do with how deep the valve is installed. It is a totally interchangeable item. Hoses for handheld shower heads have universal ends, so they can be changed at any time. The important thing to know is that the trim for the rough valve has to match the rough valve. The trim is the cover plate and the control functions (turning the water on and off, adjusting the temperature if it is a thermostatic valve, diverting the water to different outlets). With a pressure balanced valve, you turn the handle from cold to hot,the same amount of water always comes out and just the temperature changes. The water is either on or off. With a thermostatic valve, one knob (or lever or whatever) controls the temperature of the outcoming water. Another knob (or lever or whatever) controls how much water comes out. So you can have low or high flow water at any temperature. With both pressure balanced and thermostatic, if you have more than one outlet, you will need a diverter to change between the outlets. Sometimes the diverter is built into the rough valve, and sometimes there are separate components. But they are still all part of the rough assembly. You will definitely need to have that on hand when the plumber is there doing the rough work. You will also need to know what the depth of the finished wall covering will be so the plumber can set the valve at the right depth.

I think you are mixing up the term control, and using it to mean two different things: the number of outlets and what exactly is being controlled (the diverter, the temperature, the flow of water).

Wdccruise, thank you. I spent an hour on build.com. I think my problem is terminology. Please correct me if I am wrong about the following...

The escutcheon is just trim that covers the hole where the valve is.

The handles are what turns the valves on or off, so if I buy a pressure balanced valve, I must choose between 1 handle and 2 handles. I noticed some showers have an integrated volume control. I assumed 2 handles = thermostatic. I was so wrong. Why would an integrated volume control be good to have?

With a Delta valve, all working parts are inside the wall.

With the Hansgrohe you posted, all working parts outside the wall, but only certain handles work with it.

Then I buy a shower head and slider bar. Does it have to be Hansgrohe also?

Edit:

That Hansgrohe exposed valve goes with a shower like this...? The pipes are inside the shower not inside the wall?

For the regular Hansgrohe, I would use handles like the pictures below.

Yes, I finally figured out that the handles are called trim. I had assumed trim meant escutcheon. So now I know the "controls" I was talking about (handles) are the trim.

I have a problem with wanting to install something of good quality that I would choose, but since we are selling in a year or probably two, then Lowe's products will be fine. Thanks.

The escutcheon is just the metal plate that covers the hole.

If you're not going to choose a shower system as suggested earlier, choose a shower trim with the features you want. On Build, the website will provide the info on any required rough-in valve. For example, if you choose the Hansgrohe 04449 Metris C (above) and add it to your cart, Build will prompt you to add the required Hansgrohe 01850 rough-in valve. You can also read the trim's linked Specification to see the required valve.

Note that you need a diverter if you have a shower head and a hand shower. The diverter switches the flow of the water between the shower head and the hand shower. The Metris C Trim includes the diverter. Obviously, if you have only a shower head you don't need a diverter; you could use the diverterless S/E Trim in that case.

The Hansgrohe 16181181 Basic Set supports the Croma 220 and other Hansgrohe shower pipes. The Croma 220's valve and diverter are contained within the outside-wall control.

"The 1st picture on the left has the hot and cold supply lines attached to it? The picture in the middle does not work with the 1st picture?" Correct.

The middle picture in your first set of pictures and the last two pictures use a Hansgrohe iBox rough valve. The cartridge, which comes with the trim, determines if it will be pressure balanced or thermostatic. The iBox is what I use. I am not familiar with the showerpipe as I don't like it so have never looked into it.

The S/E trim you show does not have a diverter. It would be for a shower only or a tub only. You turn the handle and how far you turn it determines the temperature. The flow stays constant, just the temperature changes.

The Metris C trim you show has a diverter so it can have 2 functions. Tub and shower, 2 different types of shower, etc. You turn the top handle to determine where you want the water to come out. You turn the bottom handle to determine the temperature. The flow stays constant, just the temperature changes.

The escutcheon is the big round piece that covers the hole. It is part of the trim package. The trim package includes the cartridge, escutcheon, and handles. The cartridge determines if it is pressure balance or thermostatic, and if it diverts or not. The iBox valve itself is the same for any configuration (but it might not use all of the ports, in which case your plumber will cap one off).

I don't know what you mean by an integrated volume control, unless you are referring to a thermostatic valve. With a thermostatic valve, you can control the volume of water independent of the temperature. Pressure balance means water is either on or off, no volume control other than that. Thermostatic means any amount of water flow you would like. With thermostatic, you can leave the temperature setting alone so it will always be the temperature you like without having to adjust it (assuming no one else adjusts it).

Once again, the shower head and slide bar DO NOT have to be the same brand as the valve. They are independent pieces. You can change them at any time if you don't like what you originally get. It doesn't matter what brand valve you get, you can use any brand of shower head. I actually do not like the hansgrohe wall outlet (used with a hose and slide bar or hook). It looks and feels cheap. Rohl makes a nice one, with an adjustable escutcheon.

Delta is a similar setup to the Hansgrohe iBox; it's just not as flexible with installation.

Delta makes good products. If you buy from Lowe's just make sure that you're not purchasing an item that is made exclusively for Lowe's.

For a slide bar (particularly with your grandson) I like the Delta 51900. It is ADA compliant and can be used as a grab bar (make sure to put blocking in the wall to attach it to). It's attractive and sturdy. I think it is much better than the equivalent Speakman model.

'Trim' is a classification or title of the parts that you see (rather than don't see). This includes the handles, escutcheon plate, shower head, tub spout, etc. For some companies, some trims go with only some valves, usually more trims than valves. Also, if you get tired of the trim, you can sometimes change for something new without changing the valve.

Usually, single handle valves will rotate for temperature and perhaps pull out for volume. Some use two handles, one for temp and one for volume.

In general, I would say that one picks the features, then trim which determines the required valve.

As to the cartridge, it is said that ceramic is better. And/or brass. But not plastic. I don't think it matters in your case since you're not looking for 50 years of service.

Wdcruise, I noticed that BUILD.COM helped with which diverter. I also went to Hansgrohe website to explore the model like you suggested. Thanks.

Catbuilder, the 1 or 2 handles is what had confused me. I have always had a tub diverter or an add on diverter, so having a diverter on the trim with its own knob was new to me. As for the integrated volume control, it also has 2 knobs/handles, but it is pressure balanced, not thermostatic. I saw units that were WERE thermostatic with 2 knobs though.

Weidmeister, thanks. Yes, the terminology was confusing me. I think I understand it now. I found a pressure balanced unit like the one you mentioned with 1 handle for temp and 1 for volume. I had incorrectly assumed 2 handles meant thermostatic. Then I saw a 2 handles unit in which 1 handle controlled temp and volume and the other handle was a diverter. So, I know I was assuming incorrectly.

Integrated Volume control -pressure balanced. I don't know where the diverter is if 1 handle is for temp and the other is for volume. I wouldn't want both heads spraying water at the same time.

I think I finally have it straight. Like Back2work said, we will be selling in about 2 years, so I think I will go with the cheapest shower bar I can find. I usually only buy good quality faucets from plumbing showrooms. I believe that you get what you pay for, and I would rather do it right the first time, but it makes sense that new owners would put in the shower head they want.

So, I am going cheap. The new owners can change what they want. I found a Lowe's exclusive, Delta slider bar and shower head on clearance for $48.00 (Delta's suggested retail is $140.00.) The bar is plastic, but it will serve the purpose. I know the shower/bar is nickel and the other pics show chrome. I am still looking, but I wanted to see if I have all the parts I need. No fixed shower head, but by using the arm (instead of a wall elbow) a fixed head can be added later.

The difference between the two valves is $16.95. I think it might be worth it to have the integrated service stops, but if not, please let me know.

• Integrated service stops (allows for turning off water at valve, preventing whole-house interruptions)

Have I left anything out that I need to buy? Thanks

Integrated service stops are ok. It means you don't have to turn off the water to the whole house if you need to change the cartridge.

If the valve has a separate handle for volume and one for temperature, you would need a 3rd one for a diverter. This would most likely be a separate part.

Thanks.