My box of parchment paper reads: 420 degrees.

I cook at 450 a LOT. My parchment paper sometimes turns brown,but I haven't started a fire yet.

I’ve started fires in hotter ovens on a baking stone. Wouldn’t think your recipe would be a concern. It’ll brown and crisp up a bit as in the picture; that’s about it.

Please report back on the recipe - sounds good!

I've also used it often at 450. Different brands seem to have different flash points.

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5858-can-you-heat-parchment-paper-higher-than-manufacturers-recommend

I always transfer pizza on parchment paper to a heated baking stone that is either in an oven or the BBQ. It has never ignited, but it often chars somewhat. My BBQ is usually not above 450 but there are flames down below. I recently did a pizza in the oven at 500 °F and it still didn't burn.

In my oven with my parchment it would burn. Not sure about ignite but might if I used the 'hobo' method.

I've have made that recipe a hundred times, (not Dories but identical from elsewhere), and another that uses sun-dried tomatoes, capers and olives.

I use a different fold that is flat like an envelope. At 375º.

Excellent recipe.

Maybe for liability/safety issues, the manufacturer adds a safety factor.

And, also as you mentioned, oven temperatures are (may not be) not precise.

@sleevendog (5a NY 6aNYC NL CA) My experience has always been cutting the paper into a heart shape, then folding the edges in. This “hobo” pouch thing has me a little worried.

Thanks for the responses. We don’t usually do a test run on our recipes. But I might on this one just to test the parchment issue.

Rethinking my response now that you mentioned the heart-shaped pouch. Ive used that as well for fish, why not just do that?

The couple times I’ve had a fire it’s been when making calzones, excess parchment flaming up. That does get me worried about the “hobo” bags. Just thinking aloud here, but I’m wondering if there’s more risk in an electric oven with heat coming from the upper element. Maybe gas would be ok?

I cook my pizzas in a gas oven at 525. I trim the paper close to the pizza. I do get some browning at the edges, but no burning.

@foodonastump, I have an electric oven. I’m not 100% sure, but I believe when you are just baking, the heat comes from the lower element. I have to cook 8 of these, so I’ll probably be using convection.

We are supposed to make recipes exactly as written. This is written as a hobo pouch, so I really should do it that way, although it seems to me that the heart shaped packets would be easier.

Speaking of cooking as written, Dorie Greenspan’s Everyday Cooking hasn’t been the most challenging cookbook we’ve used, but it does have some ingredients that I don’t keep on hand. She frequently uses harissa and za’atar and sumac. Fortunately, she also gives more “everyday” substitutions. When we finish the year in March, we will have cooked 56 recipes from the book. I don’t think we’ve had a total failure yet

When you're baking without convection, the heat should just come from the lower element. If you have a proper full convection oven, rather than an ersatz one which just has a plain fan and doesn't really do much but give you a windy oven, there should be a heating element in the fan area so that the air it blows back in the oven assists the heating rather than just cooling off and blow back into the oven. If it's an older cookbook, don't use the convection, at least until it becomes "your" recipe and you think you can improve it. And remember that all the members of the club are going to have different ovens that behave differently, if replication is an issue, rather than just tasting the recipes.

I'm with the rest on the parchment. Scorch but no burn at 450.

What we don't know is what temperature DG's oven really was. Mine is very accurate (and more expensive than most people will get). Her oven might top out at 450 and average more like 430, whereas mine set at 450 will average at 450 with a small variance. I think the test run is a truly valuable idea! Maybe try one in parchment and keep an eye on it, and the other in foil to see how it comes out if the parchment starts to burn.

Good luck!

But, Hon, get yourself some middle eastern flavors!! Is there a Whole Foods near you? I mean, they're dotted all across Texas. You should be able to get the little boxes of za'atar and sumac from Spicely there, which aren't such a big commitment (za'atar is a blend often used as a condiment and addictive). You might have to pop for a whole jar to get harisa, but that's more easily substituted with other red spicy paste. OTOH, so much better on eggs than tabasco which is merely hot!

@plllog my convection oven is truly an ersatz one (in the inferior substitution sense).

I’m not a fan of Middle Eastern flavors. I finally bought a small jar of harissa because I make DG’s Mediterranean Shepherd’s Pie so often. And I suppose I should go ahead and spring for the za’atar and sumac, but using lemon zest and oregano is working for me. I gave one of my cookbook club fellow members half of the jar of harissa because I know it will lose its potency before I use it.

I don’t like bland food, but it can go to over-spiced pretty quickly for me. I find it interesting the differences in heat. I love horseradish, but I cannot stand Tabasco. I make a peppercorn crusted tenderloin that I really like, but I almost put too much harissa in the shepherd’s pie the first time I used it. I’m sure there is a scientific explanation for why I tolerate some ”heats” but not others. However, I don’t know how to explain it.

Za'atar is pretty yummy, if you like sesame and herbs. Everyone makes it a little differently. You can easily make your own if you have common herbs and sesame seeds. Sumac is mild and I think you'd like it, but you might not. You can buy za'atar with and without sumac. :) But that's why I suggested Spicely. The little boxes are good for one or two recipes, you're not paying for the jar, and they're good quality. Many are organic as well.

Tabasco, like many pepper sauces, has a raw flavor. One of the reasons people like Sriracha so much is that it has sugar to mask that. A good harisa is more mellow with a lot of richness of flavor. It can be a lot hotter or pretty mild, but shouldn't be harsh (though could be when someone has a different idea).

I'm sure you're right about the different tolerances to different heat. Horseradish requires oxidation (per Google) to activate the isothiocyanate that makes it hot. Capsaicin is what makes peppers hot, and in concentration is poisonous. Black pepper's flavor comes from piperine. I've recently been learning about the genetic basis of how we taste things. It's an evolutionary thing whether your ancestors had a increased ability to survive and reproduce if they could sense this or that compound.

You did not mention 'recipes as written'. Many recipes do not take into consideration various ovens. My double oven gas vintage was a flame flair. (replaced 5 yrs ago with an electric monster and steam.) monster broiler.

Modern, today, recipes, should always mention various oven differences...not just calibrated off temps, but flame on-off-vintage-gas, or electric modern.

Take your parchment outside and light a match to it. (tiny piece in a contained dish)

That will flame up like a tiki torch....do not want that in an oven.

But, you could flatten the 'hobo' a bit and set a bit of foil over it. That recipe was written for a big oven. 'hobo' (lol)...in the middle low rack will have not problem.

Just watch it like a HAWK ...I do that every time when a tricky recipe is in high heat.

I like to make hobo packages with phyllo dough, 3 sheets with a light brushing of butter between, so the whole thing is edible.

Bumble, if this recipe turns out to be a keeper, I may try the phyllo packages for DH and me. But this time, I am committed to making “as written.”

plllog, how we perceive heat is an interesting study. I think I come from a long line of “white bread” folks. Mother’s spice cabinet was salt and pepper. There may have been an ancient tin of oregano waaay in the back.

Thank you for your good advice, sleevendog. I’ll keep a close eye on the oven. Is this going to be one of those “dinner is ready when the smoke alarm goes off” situations? :-)

Or...if you think your oven is really going to be too hot for the paper--even merely scorched doesn't look or smell pretty--you could try running it at heat with a high heat ok pan in there to give it something to warm up, and use an oven thermometer (they're cheap) in different parts of the oven to see how hot it really is compared to what it thinks it is.

Normal ovens, especially ones that weren't made at a higher price in the last number of years, can have a tolerance of +/- 25 degrees. That is, when the sensor registers that the heat has dropped to a certain point, it adds heat. The oven may get to 25° below the set point before it starts warming up again. Similarly, if it sensor thinks it's getting too hot, it will stop warming and the oven may get up to 25° over the set point. That's a 50° swing! Some of the newer ones are better. Many are this or worse. A lot of oven engineering nowadays is about energy conservation first and whether it will cook well way down the list. A few of the top tier ovens have a spread of 10° and there are a few which claim to "sous vide", which literally is about cooking in the vacuum sealed bag, but is commonly used to mean in a variance of 2°, which is what the circulators/water baths do. One degree either direction.

This whole deal is to say that once you know the real temperatures of your oven, you can set it accordingly. If it goes up to 15° over the set point, try setting it at 430° F and be safe? That's still really hot.

Which brings me to the thought that no amount of doing it as written will make the given time and temperature come out right the first time. Ovens are usually calibrated to be at their best at 350° F. A hundred degrees different and we're in every cook for herself land. You should probably do the test run no matter what.

You can let all these oven considerations be part of your presentation.

So I just did a little 'net research. The silicone is supposed to help extend the ignition range a little, so that might make up for the temperature swing. It can catch fire, especially if there's sugar on it. Also if it's too near, especially touching, the oven walls or heat source. The pizza guys use it at temperatures over 500° F, where the silicone starts breaking down and once burned they advocate careful trimming (under the wet, cold dough should be okay). The brands rated for 420° may be using caution to capture the temperature swing.

Anyway, good luck with it!

With the convection off the cinders won't blow around so much...

I have made parchment packets using the heart pouch many times....at 425 to 450. The paper tans up a but but doesn't char and certainly doesn't flame. With the loose edges of the hobo sack though it may. I would do it in a heart packet unless I had a very tall oven.
Any my ovens are electric.

I did a test run for lunch today. As I was getting out my parchment paper, I found a teeny tiny sentence on the box that said it was safe to 450 degrees. YAY!

^ Here are two papillotes ready to go in the oven (why is this photo sideways? It isn’t that way in my Photo Library!)

^ fresh out of the oven

The upper edge of the parchment was a little flakey/crackly. As I was pulling open the pouches, it was disintegrating in my fingers. Because I didn’t want DH to have to fish bits of paper out of his food, I dumped the contents into pasta bowls.

^Finished dish.

This is really really good. Even DH who doesn’t care for fish, asked how hard it would be for me to make it again!

Let’s talk about serving this to my cookbook group. Should I serve it in the paper and assume everyone will manage to keep the paper out of their food? Or should I serve it in the less elegant, but more practical manner, and dump it in the bowl? Fork or soup spoon? I ate it with a fork. DH grabbed a spoon.

Personally I think half the fun is in having the pouch in front of me. Those look very nice! And spoon vs fork ... Are you serving some kind of bread with which to sop up all that flavorful broth? If yes, then a fork is OK, if not then spoons so as to get every drop possible! I'm sure your guests will love it either way.

The upper edge of the parchment was a little flakey/crackly.

That’s the area I was thinking most susceptible. How about a second test with a foil hat on the bunched portion? (You don’t have to remake the actual recipe, just throw something cheap in the pouch.)

I agree, half the fun is opening the pouch and smelling the wonderful aroma!

Whoever was hostess last is supposed to bring the wine and the bread. We’ve gotten away from having bread though, because it is such a large meal in the middle of the day. I may have to ask last-hostess to bring bread this time.

Good idea FOAS! I’ll give it a try.

I agree that a foil cap would work. About the only thing I use foil for is loose hats on the breast of a whole chicken, a bit wrapped on bone tips like rack of lamb, some strips around the crust edge of a fruit tart. A bit smooched medium tight around that purse top...will not affect cooking time. Pop off the foil and fluff the hobo and served in the pouch. She used twine to seal.

Still think the temp is too high. We catch 3-4 dozen cod every season and never cook that high heat. Cooks fast. Might be a recipe oversight. I often pre-heat higher, then turn down when the meal goes in. James Beard uses 350 and most others 400.

You can also trim the ruffles, as was suggested up topic. Even after cooking. The edges go first, so if it was okay, not flaking near the string, you can cut away the extra that's burnt, and still keep your pouch. The foil sounds like a good trick, though. It works for lasagna. :)

Sleevendog, I actually had to cook it a few minutes longer than the recipe called for. It may have been that the cod was not totally thawed. And they were thick-ish pieces of fish.

Also, I knew if DH encounter any that he thought was not well-done, he would not eat it. I had a wonderful recipe that called for brining chicken breasts before baking. He wouldn’t eat the chicken. Because it wasn’t tough and dry, he equated it to under-done.

One of the “rules” for our group is that recipes must be cooked as-written. So this will be cooked at 450 degrees wearing little tin-foil caps.

@plllog, the area near the string was not flaking, just the ruffles. However, I noticed the string (cotton cooking twine) was beginning to brown!

The Portuguese-Style Cod with Beans en Papillote was a roaring success. I did not use the little foil caps and the parchment did become brittle. Nevertheless, everyone loved it. I think they may have loved the presentation more than the dish! Thanks to all of you for sharing your cooking wisdom and knowledge.

YAY!!! I am so glad it worked and that everyone liked it. Isn't that a lovely feeling?

Great news! I hope the other dishes lived up to it. :)

To go with the cod, we had a delicious beet soup made with golden beets; cauliflower tabbouleh with nuts and raisins; and banana cake. Pre-prandial we had cocktails and roasted nuts. Remember, we cook out of one cookbook for a year. We are at the end of our year, so pickings are slim.

I use parchment paper under my pizzas on a pizza stone on my green egg at 600-700 degrees and its never caught fire. Edges charred a tad, but no fire, even with a rippin’ fire under it. It’s pretty forgiving.

I popped over here to see how this went since you posted on the what's for brunch thread. Sounds delicious. I think the packets are adorable. I can see why they liked them. So glad it was a great success.

So I’m thinking about making these tonight, perhaps with a different fish, but regardless I’m having a tough time thinking of sides. Can I just serve it with crusty bread and call it a meal? Perhaps bump up the ingredients a bit? We’re kinda big eaters but want to keep it on the healthy side.

I hope somebody will try it with phyllo, I like pouches so much better that way. For ease, cooking spray can be used between layers and not much is needed.

FOAS, I would add a green salad of some kind with a simple vinaigrette. IMO, that meal needs some green veg......with the crusty bread, that would be perfect!!

@foodonastump, I think you‘re right. This dish with crusty bread is sufficient. If you’re feeling the need for more veggies, a salad would be good. Also, if you have soup plates or pasta bowls, use them. There is a good amount of broth.

If you use the 5 oz fillet as called for, it will be a small-ish meal. I think you could easily use a larger piece of fish and maybe 1.5x all the other ingredients. Just adjust your cooking time to account for the larger piece of fish.

Although I made this exactly as written yesterday, when I made it earlier in the week for DH and me, I did it a little differently. I liked the results of my first run better. I used frozen minced garlic. I used dried thyme. I omitted the lemons*. I used grape tomatoes cut in half, figuring one grape tomato = I slice.

I mixed the beans as called for but added all the garlic, all the thyme, and, by mistake, all the liquids except the wine. When I finished layering, I realized I had mixed all the oil in with the beans. So, I poured a bit more oil over the fish and then the wine. I think my adjustments resulted in more garlic, more thyme, and certainly, more oil (maybe 1 tsp) than the as-written recipe.

Let us know what you do and how it works out for you!

*I omitted the lemons because mine had gone past the “best by” stage and were in the “must wash crisper drawer” stage. YUK! Yesterday, when I used lemons as directed, I could not tell that they added anything to the dish. Maybe a squeeze of fresh lemon before eating would be good.

@Bumblebeez SC Zone 7, do you think the phyllo would hold up to the amount of liquid generated by this dish? It is almost a soup. (See my photo above) When it was removed from the oven, I could see the liquid bubbling inside the parchment.

Hmmm, the bottom might not be crispy but probably would not fall apart. I'm an experimental cook so I would try it but bake them in a small cake pan for escaping liquid

For me it would fall apart well before cooking. ;)

Really nice recipe! I over-paprika’d the first batch of beans, not realizing the amount the recipe specifies is approx, they call for a pinch here and there. So just a heads up! By about halfway through cooking the parchment had turned a nice color so I threw on some foil hats. Nothing crumbly at all as we opened it.

Cod’s cheap as fish goes, beans help make it filling, sauce is great. Definite re-do. Thanks!

@foodonastump isn’t it a great recipe! IIRC I used the amount of paprika called for in the beans and then just dusted the tiniest amount on the fish. I didn’t rub it in.

In our after lunch discussion yesterday, we all agreed that the style of writing the recipes is a little too chatty, making it hard to follow sometimes.

Next time, I’m doing your foil beanie!