oliver_x

An possible alternative to ebb tide and twilight zone

Oliver (SF 9A)
2 years ago

I bought new bareroot roses “celestial night” and Julia child this spring because I wanted a Maeve /purple ish rose plated together with a cream yellow one. and I love the combination! they both produce so many buds only three months after planting, non stopping since April. I thought about getting ET or TZ but decided on CN in stead after I saw ET and TZ in San Jose rose garden. They were fried under the Bay Area sun.

So if you are not very picky about the tone of purple ish roses, this could be a good alternative?

Comments (85)

  • Oliver (SF 9A)
    Original Author
    7 months ago

    Hi Nola

    my CN gets tall and narrow, around 5 to 6 ft tall and 3 ft wide. But again, my double delight is over 6 ft tall. I tend to plant Roses very close to each other (due to lack of space) so I am not sure if that’s Why they tend to be tall and narrow. I love my CN but she does have one drawback. The petals get fried easily under summer sun. More pics of CN with Julian child and the poets wife. The last pic was taken around September (Indian summer in SF), noticing how the color is hotter.






  • Oliver (SF 9A)
    Original Author
    7 months ago
    last modified: 7 months ago

    kordes roses need time to establish in my garden. Both quicksilver and florentina didn’t do much for the first year. here is quicksilver on his second year, with LoS










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  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    7 months ago

    Stormy Weather?

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    7 months ago

    Every photo on this thread is stunning. I will be coming back to these again and again in the months ahead for inspiration. Thank you for this thread, Oliver. I just realized it's a year old and I missed it the first time around. I'm scrolling back up to enjoy them again. Some of these combinations take my breath away and I admit - confess - I am going to copy them.

  • Diane Brakefield
    7 months ago

    I'm checking out Stormy Weather. I love that name. Do you grow it Vapor?


    Beautiful photos and combinations, Oliver. I'm a big fan of yellows, purples, and lavenders together, too. Diane

  • Nola z5aWI
    7 months ago
    last modified: 7 months ago

    OMG you people and your gorgeous roses! I'll take them all X3! Lol.

    Kristine - Your Celestial Night is a great beauty! I love it!

    Diane - I think I need the contrast of the darker Twilight Zone against the light Poseidon and Reine des Violette if I can grow it that large. The trellis is about 6ftx6ft and it doesn't need to reach the top. Do you have any specific advise on how to get it that large? Planting supplements and fertilizers?

    Oliver - Celestial Night is beautiful and I will have to find a spot for that as well as that killer combo of Quicksilver and LOS! I am z5 so my roses won't get as large unfortunately, but I won't complain. :) I apologize, I didn't mean to hijack your thread for a moment. I do appreciate your advice though!

    Thanks so much for your input, it is so much appreciated!! :)

    Reine des Violette in September (good spring & fall bloom but not much in between)


    Twilight Zone (small maybe 2.5 feet tall) this is where I need your expertise Diane to grow a new one large. It is pretty close in color to RdV. Otherwise I may need to solicit advice on a complementary climber.


  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    7 months ago

    I believe Carol grew Stormy Weather, but not sure if she still has it.

  • Rose Lai (9b)
    7 months ago

    Nola, not sure you like single pedal roses, but there is Night Owl which is tall (> 7 feet) and dark purple. It is marketed as a climber but in truth many people grows it as a large shrub because the canes are kind of inflexible to train. J&P sells it. See this link:

    https://www.jacksonandperkins.com/night-owl-climbing-rose/p/27358/


    There is an old post by the late Old Rosarian who mentioned that you need to keep it in part-sun; otherwise it can fade to hot pink like the other purple. If you like dark red, there is Sultry Sangria which can also look reddish purple. See this link:

    https://www.regannursery.com/rose/Sultry-Sangria



  • Rose Lai (9b)
    7 months ago

    Oh I forgot Lavender Crush! I got 3 of them in 2020 but didn't get even one decent photo because they are located in a part of my garden that is not easily accessible. After 1 year they grew to 5 - 6 feet. The color is not lavender but purple with white reversal. Quite interesting. I only have 1 photo which also is the very first bloom.



  • T Hoover (zone 6b/7a)
    7 months ago

    Hello again- Glad to see this thread come to life again! Question for Oliver (SF 9A)Original Author- Can you tell me more about kordes roses? I looked it up online. What roses qualify as kordes roses? I don't see TZ listed. I think I have fallen for the TZ. Does anyone have an online source they would recommend. This rose will be planted in the DC area - if I don't keep it for myself in Blacksburg Virginia. ! Teri Hoover

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    7 months ago

    Diane, I have Stormy Weather on order for Spring, although now I am confused if I meant to order Night Owl. I studied these two for ages along with TZ, but don't recall all the pros and cons. I had ordered SW from Ludwig's before they moved and when my order was cancelled I never got them from Agave, just my money back. Let's see how SW does. I ordered it from HCRs. Another GREAT reddish purple is Perennial Blue. I also have that coming sometime this year from Freedom Gardens. @AquaEyes 7a NJ grows it and inspired me to get it.

  • Diane Brakefield
    7 months ago

    Vapor, thanks. I took a long look at Stormy Weather on HMF and decided I'd take a pass, which is a good thing because I don't have the space. I felt there was too much variability in the color and bloom quality shown in the photos. I'll check out Perennial Blue which I have never heard of. The one purple that interests me enough to make room for it is Purple Lodge. I still can't get over Lynn in Texas's Purple Lodge, but maybe I should look more closely at the photos of that one on HMF, too. They often dissuade me from impulse purchases.


    Nola, those are stunning blooms of Reine des Violette and TZ. You're keeping those two, I hope. I don't know if these suggestions will help, nor do I know what your fertilizing routine is for your roses. I would do moderate winter protecting on TZ--maybe heaped up compost covered with a tube of leaves. But if you think leaves would cause a canker problem, then don't use them. I put a special compost I like on all my roses in November. It's more part of my fertilizer routine than winter protection because our winters aren't very bad (zone 7). In late February, every rose gets a dose of Plant Tone, and in March, each roses gets a dose of Lilly Miller Organic Granular Fertilizer. I use the one for acid loving plants because my soil is alkaline. You probably don't have alkaline soil, so just the all purpose would be good. That's it. I garden in a semiarid desert so there are no fungal diseases to speak of. I think this helps the roses to put energy in growth, rather than replacing leaves because of blackspot. Roses do grow bigger here, even with a short growing season. I grow TZ next to Julia Child on one side and Augusta Luise on the other. She is mostly pink. In back, TZ is part of a solid purple--wine red bed. Surprisingly, Ebb Tide, TZ, and a couple of Munstead Woods end of looking the same color, and I like that, too. Hope all that helps. But you already are growing some beauties. Diane

  • Diane Brakefield
    7 months ago





    Oliver (SF 9A) thanked Diane Brakefield
  • Diane Brakefield
    7 months ago

    Sorry, the first photo is a mistake and TZ isn't in it. Diane

    Oliver (SF 9A) thanked Diane Brakefield
  • Oliver (SF 9A)
    Original Author
    7 months ago
    last modified: 7 months ago

    Thanks for the compliments!

    @flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA yeah the post is a year old indeed. am glad it’s still helpful hehe

    @Diane Brakefield i love the color combination in your garden. Purple/mauve with yellow, and pink with yellow too!

    @Nola z5aWI any rose discussion is appreciated and welcomed here! :-)

    @Rose Lai (9b) i have the same experience as you. LC grew over 7 ft in her first year here. Only 4 canes tho. It’s dark purple instead of lavender. I love the citrus fragrance!

    @T Hoover you can find kordes roses here https://www.kordes.us they have some gorgeous roses!

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    7 months ago

    Magnificent again. Diane, Purple Lodge was another miss from Ludwig's. Gosh I wish I could have gotten my three. 🙁

  • Madison Post
    7 months ago

    T Hoover I know High Country Rose website sells TW, but they might be out of stock by now for bare root.


  • Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
    7 months ago

    Vap, I just got a Purple lodge from Burlington

    I got a 1 gallon, she also has it in bands.

  • Nola z5aWI
    7 months ago
    last modified: 7 months ago

    Vapor - Stormy Weather is a great name! Are you growing it? Very pretty!

    Rose Lai - Of the three, I really like Lavender Crush, I'd not seen that one before and I like the bloom form! I am sorry to hear about Old Rosarian, who brought so much experience to these threads. :(

    Diane - Thank you for your kind words and help. Is your special November compost a bagged product or something you whip up? I am always happy to see pictures of your HUGE roses, they are beautiful! :) Do you prune your Twilight Zone hard? My husband loves yellow so eventually I'll probably end up getting Julia Child at some point, unless he can get his fix from Lady Hillingdon, Golden Celebration or the two new yellows coming in the spring. If your looking for a new rose, I would recommend taking a look


    at Lemon Spice if you haven't already, Its a beauty, and the fragrance is delicious! Mines only been in two years (fertilized one) and grows slowly considering I recently discovered two summers ago that you really should use fertilizer on your roses. lol

    Oliver - Thank you for your gracious comment! I think I might have asked before on another thread but what are the orange and yellow roses with your Quicksilver above? It's a really pretty combination!

    Kristine - I planted Purple Lodge last fall from Burling, can't wait to see what it will do this summer. We'll have to get a thread started! :) Note: If it makes it, woke up to -9. lol So much fun to compare notes.

    Thank you for your help everyone! What a great group of people on here!

    Nola

  • Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
    7 months ago

    Nola, my husband is from Stevens Point Wi. He is not missing the cold temps.

    We will surely compare notes on our Purple Lodge. I am goung to pot it for the deck and place it where it will get sun from 6 to 1. Hopefully that will give me that dark purple color.

  • Diane Brakefield
    7 months ago

    Nola and Kristine, I'm looking forward to a Purple Lodge thread.


    Nola, yikes to -9F. Our lowest temp this winter has been 19F for one night. The other lows have been sissy lows. Which I love. The compost is a special bagged one, available only in the Northwest. It's called NuLife Organic compost with lots of extra goodies-- like chicken manure and mycorrhizae. NuLife also makes an excellent potting soil for those of you in their selling area. Diane

  • Nola z5aWI
    7 months ago

    Diane- your funny "sissy lows" lol I'd love that too! We were -18 somewhere in WI a few nights ago but it makes no difference we always go through this for a week or two in January/February depending on the year. I've lived here pretty much my whole life besides a short stint in Denver, now that's crazy weather, swimming in the pool at 10am and snowing at 4:30pm on the same day. Thank you for your help!

    Kristine - Your husband knows what I'm talking about then, I'm closer to the Madison area. :) My PL is in the ground so it'll be interesting to see if there is much difference in our different climates. The pictures on the internet look great though!

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    7 months ago

    I hope I get one this Spring. I added it to my Longagoroses order if she has one.

  • Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
    7 months ago

    Vap, can you not order from Burlington? She had it in stock


  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    4 months ago

    @Oliver (SF 9A) I was researching the possibility of Celestial Night with Julia Child since both of them are currently available at our local Pikes. Your pictures more than convinced me. If it was not raining hard outside now, I would have already rushed to the store.

  • Oliver (SF 9A)
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    @Gardening_7bAtlanta the combination is quite nice but there is a problem I observed. Julia child usually requires full sun, however celestial night is not heat resistant at all. its petals get fried under the summer sun (Which reminds me of ebb tide, one of her parents)... I think others also reported this about CN.

  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    4 months ago

    Thanks for the information. Still would like to give it a try first.

  • BenT (8a Dallas, TX)
    4 months ago

    One of my local nurseries sells tree roses of Julia Child with Ebb Tide (or Twilight Zone). That is ,the one plant is grafted with both a yellow and a purple rose. I always thought Julia would eventually overwhelm the purple rose she was grafted with, she’s the much stronger grower. But I think they’d look good together as separate plants.

  • Diane Brakefield
    4 months ago

    Ben, I agree about Julia overwhelming a purple, but I've always liked the idea of those two colors on one "tree". I love my Julia next to both Ebb Tide and Twilight Zone. Diane

  • Diane Brakefield
    4 months ago



    Julia with TZ in first photo. With Young Lycidas in second photo.

  • BenT (8a Dallas, TX)
    4 months ago

    Diane,

    I was thinking of your incomparable purple roses with JC when I posted!

  • Diane Brakefield
    4 months ago

    Thank you, Ben. I wish they would start blooming already. Diane

  • Nola z5aWI
    4 months ago

    Diane - what is the purple in the way back? Twilight Zone? It's also very pretty?

  • Diane Brakefield
    4 months ago

    Thanks, Nola, That's the wine red Ascot. Diane

  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    2 months ago

    @Oliver (SF 9A) I bought both Julia Child and Celestial Night two months ago. They were planted at full sun spots and both look healthy. Julia Child is blooming non-stop. I like it so much that I plan to buy more. But similar to what you have observed, petals of Celestial Night fried under the summer sun and changed to a pink color, not the pinkish purple color I saw in the nursery in late spring or your pictures . It also blooms much less often than Julia Child. I am thinking about maybe moving it to a shadier spot behind Olivia Rose Austin, whose light pink color may contrast well with Celestial Night. But I still want to try the same color combination - pinkish purple with yellow. I wonder whether Twilight Zone has similar color and disease resistance to Celestial Night, but holds better under heat?

  • Diane Brakefield
    2 months ago

    To answer the question again, no, there is no alternative to Twilight Zone if you want true purple. Purple Lodge could be, but where do you buy it? Diane



  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    2 months ago

    Actually I prefer the Celestial Night color showing in this picture than completely purple. Maybe this rose color is much easier to get than the true purple.



  • Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
    2 months ago

    My Celestial Night is less happy in the heat that I thought that it was last year. It is actually taking on kind of a two tone appearance

    The whole thing isnt fading, just the outer edges are much lighter than the center


    My Purple Lodge is new so can't really comment yet on color but so far it is crisping up.

    Available at Burlington

  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    2 months ago

    I googled pictures of Twilight Zone and Purple Lodge online. Both of them potentially have the color I want depending on several variables, such as time of the year, sun intensity, angle of pictures, etc. I guess in order to find out exactly what color I will get, I need to shop my local nurseries during spring time. Then again, the flower color of Celestial Night looks much better in spring than our hot summer in the south.

  • Nola z5aWI
    2 months ago

    I have Purple Lodge, but it's about a foot high since I can't use fish emulsion because of the racoons, and so can't really judge the color the first year. Kristine also has Purple Lodge and I'll bet hers is quite a bit larger than mine, maybe she'll weigh in. Soil differences can make it hard to tell what color you'll end up with.


    Gardening_7b - I have Twilight Zone, Ebb Tide, Purple Lodge, Etienne (1x), Chartreuse de Parme, Brindabella Purple Prince, Munstead Wood, Young Lycidas, The Prince, Indigo, Eugene de Beauharnais and Gloire de Ducher for purplish roses. Though I'm eyeing up Nigrette, and I've got Stephen's Big Purple on order, that may be closer to Celestial Night and has good reviews and Member votes on HMF.


  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    2 months ago

    @Nola z5aWI With these many purple roses you have, you must be an expert on purple roses. People here mentioned Purple Prince a lot. I wonder whether Brindabella Purple Prince and Purple Prince are the same thing or different roses. I saw Brindabella Purple Prince at the local nurseries this spring and the flower color is very similar to Celestial Night. If it is as healthy as Celestial Night, but more heat resistant, I will give it a try. What is your experience with it so far?

  • Diane Brakefield
    2 months ago

    I grew two Stephen's Big Purple roses for years, and truly they are Stephen's Big Magenta. They were big and healthy roses, but not purple and wanted to grow more than bloom. I grow Ebb Tide, Young Lycidas, The Prince (not Purple Prince), Wild Blue Yonder, Ascot, Munstead Wood, as well as Twilight Zone. Some are deep wine red, purplish red, and sort of multcolored, but only two are truly purple, Ebb Tide and TZ. Here's my Clown Prince, which is a fun rose, over 8 feet tall, and so vigorous. Diane






  • Nola z5aWI
    2 months ago

    Gardening_7b I am not an expert, I just like purple and some of those are newer and small. Lol After looking at HMF, it looks like the Purple Princes are two different roses. My BPP was planted last fall so is very small, a little over a foot tall, but has bloomed and it was a medium-dark magenta so far, it seems very healthy so far. It may change when it matures. I live in z5a Wisconsin so can't comment on da "heat". We rarely get up to 95 degrees in the summer, we can get bad humidity and low 90's for 7-10 days in the summer just as -10-20 in the winter for the same number of days, 46 inches of rain per year average. :)


    Diane, your roses get so huge! I get some rogue canes that are 5' tall but so far nothing consistent. That Clown Prince is a very pretty rose with the variations of color. I put Ebb Tide so it gets late afternoon shade because I didn't know if it faded and the hottest time of the day here is about 4:00. We'll see what experience I get with Big Purple, it's always fun to compare with other areas of the country. :)

  • Diane Brakefield
    2 months ago

    Nola, Thank you. I have to confess that the Clown Prince is really Wild Blue Yonder, which I've grown since 2006. I started calling him the clown several years ago because he likes to be lots of different shades when it's hot. That rose has really grown on me--not just in size, but I love his blooms. I have three Ebb Tides which I've grown since 2006. The first few year ET did a lot of fading into pinkish colors, but now it's ugly light lavender. I don't have this problem with my two TZ roses. ET does have a lovely scent, though. Our summers are very hot and dry and this is hard on lots of roses. But we don't get blackspot, so I guess that's my reward for enduring the heat. Shade is not of much help with that rose if it's hot enough. ET just likes to fade. Below is Big Purple. I just showed these pics a few days ago on another thread. I don't grow BP anymore. Those are two plants. Diane

  • Diane Brakefield
    2 months ago





  • Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
    2 months ago

    Diane, you always blow me away with your purples . Each one is a winner but I am partial to your Twilight Zone.

    Gardner , I have Brindabella purple Prince. It started out in an area that turned boggy and it just kept bloomimg

    It got moved in to a pot and never skipped a beat. No disease and lits of blooms. That being said, I think the blooms are a bit smaller than Celestial night and less petals.


    BPP


    Celestial night


    My Purple Lodge is new and doing great! It wants to be big. It is already getting to big for his pot and this fall will go in to a 4x4x3 planter box.

    The color is still crimson red but according to Leong Burling at Burlington that is normal and they will eventually take on the purple color


  • Gardening_7bAtlanta
    2 months ago

    @Kristine LeGault 8a pnw You are right. Brindabella purple Prince does look have less petals than Celestial Night, which is the reason I picked Celestial Night over it at the local nursery.

  • bart bart
    2 months ago

    What about Minerva? https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.65278&tab=1 Anybody grow it? I've got one in a pot,but it's still too small to get put out in the garden...

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    2 months ago

    Oh!, what a pretty rose, bart. I've never heard of it before.

  • Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
    2 months ago

    Bart, I have seen incredible pictutes of Minerva but dont think that it is available in the states.

    I sure wish it was because it is so beautiful