It's that area where the loose crumb is, it's a real weakness in the slice.

Any suggestions on what might improve it would be most welcome.

Baking it a big longer? Forming it tighter when you make it into a loaf? I'm just guessing. Sometimes I get a big air pocket at the top which was my initial thought, of your problem. I've been forming my loaves a little tighter.

Do you ever get any dome on these loaves? I make a 100% wheat sourdough very regularly, but I proof it in bannetons, so it is already domed. However, I am very careful to get as much surface tension in play as possible when I shape it before the second ferment. It takes a long time to rise. I do a slow first ferment (rise) in the fridge for at least a day and usually two or three. Then I like to let it warm up and begin to work a bit out on the counter before I divide and shape it.

I think you're on to something being amiss with the shaping and rise. It doesn't look right - either underproofed or, possibly, overproofed and collapsed. Work that surface tension before you put it in the pan and don't skimp on the rise unless it actually looks over-proofed.

Yes, marymd, I have had issues with it rising nicely, and if I don't just catch it right, it will collapse in again. I think I have an issue with the shaping before I put it in a pan. I was watching this and maybe if I follow his technique it will help. I haven't been stretching it at all.

I had the same problem with wheat bread until someone told me about vital wheat gluten. If you add this to your dough the loaf will be more elastic, lighter, more moist and rise higher. I bought it in the grocery store but this is the King Arthur Flour page on the subject. It absolutely works!

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vital-wheat-gluten-16-oz

Thanks Elizabeth, but vital wheat gluten is one reason that I'm making my own bread. I've read some not so nice things about that stuff, so I'd rather avoid it.

I haven't heard anything negative about vital wheat gluten. Since I don't have celiac disease, I use it often. What is rumored to be wrong with it?

That's not how I prepare dough for a loaf pan, but it's a perfectly fine technique - the stretching is creating the surface tension. I use the standard envelop fold, roll and pinch for pan loaves - really pulling on the roll and pinch to create the surface tension. What you don't want to do is just sort of pat the dough into a log and plop it in the pan. I've used VWG in the past, but haven't bothered in recent years. My whole grain doughs are fine as long as I keep them quite wet and do the stretch (or pinch) and fold method of kneading.

Breaking at the top and the density at the bottom sounds like a hydration level problem to me. Too much water relative to the flours you used. You can do a search and find sites that tell you how to calculate hydration based on ingredients.

ETA: I face similar problems when I deal with gf flours. I obviously don't want to add gluten, so my options for improving structure are binders like xanthan gum, eggs, and flax seed meal. I'd highly recommend you try adding 1/4c ground flax seed meal and see if that improves structure. It's certainly healthy! :)

ETA2 - based on an experiment I just did, I'd change that to try w/ 1/8c flax seed meal.

Just looking at that slice, I notice the bottom looks a bit too dense - almost undercooked. I do not consider myself an expert, just competent. For many years, I used to bake bread weekly (no bread machine)and occasionally had problems like that - I always figured that might mean not enough gluten development, dough is too dense, not enough yeast, old yeast without enough activity, or dough raised for too long, and fell in the oven.

For yeasted doughs, I learned to mix some unbleached white or bread flour with my whole wheat flour (a bit less than 1/3 part) for a lighter result, proof the yeast, and really knead it very well for the second rise. First kneading I just do enough to mix well. And I also look for whole wheat flour that isn't too coarse, to get bigger fluffier results. King Arthur's organic whole wheat is a finer grind than most of the bulk whole wheat flour around here.

My proportions are 1 Tbsp. yeast, 1 1/2 cups water, 3 1/2 cups flour (1 cup unbleached or bread), 1 tsp. salt, and 2 Tbsp. fat - usually extra virgin olive oil or butter

King Arthur's bread flour is high gluten, with some barley flour in it, I seem to recall.

Elizabeth, it was from this article...it didn't sound very scrumptious: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/03/grain

I was having trouble visualizing vital wheat gluten as a discrete substance. When I said that, Jones nodded at Econopouly, and she left the room. Two minutes later, she returned and handed me a shard of vital wheat gluten. It looked like a prehistoric weapon, or the hardened bone marrow of a small mammal. “We put a plug of gluten in Coke and it foamed for a while, then became a glob that sat there for weeks,’’ Jones said. “It didn’t disintegrate into slime and mush. It just stayed there.’’ He took the plug out of my hands and slapped it on the lab counter. Nothing happened. “The stuff is simply indestructible,’’ he said.

One suspicion is that it's the vital wheat gluten is what's contributing to gluten sensitivity in the population. Then again, I've also seen data that correlates it with the increased use of round up to kill wheat before it's harvested.

Ugh, the pain of whole wheat bread! I now make a white, whole wheat and rye bread that I have finally managed to get the right rise on. In general, a technique that works very well for me is the sponge method, which gives some of your flour a really long time to develop and hydrate. It's also called the poolish or biga method although many will discuss the finer points of differences ad infinitum. I read once where it is ideal for whole grain breads. I'm not a vital wheat gluten fan either. Gluten is one of those things where more is not necessarily better. I store some of the sponge in the fridge for a second batch. Inevitably the second batch is better. But I've been so frustrated by shaping issues with whole grain breads that I gave up and now just make rolls. Suits our lifestyle better anyway, since I can freeze the majority and thaw the required number of servings only for each meal.

I've used the 'vital wheat gluten' sold in many natural & bulk food stores around here. It's basically gluten flour and is great for making fake meats or adding to bread dough - or making gluten bread. As far as a "shard", that must've been after moisture was introduced to it, and then it was dried. Since it's so high in protein, it would likely dry rock hard after mixing with liquid. So would many other flours, I think.

Hmmm...thanks lpink...maybe I should just make rolls and then I can be sure to get the portions right and no slicing!

I've not tried the sponge method...I'll give it a go and see how it comes out!

Linda is right but I think some recipes call for adding way to much extra gluten. I'm gluten sensitive, so I can tell. A little will be fine for me, but my tummy starts to grumble at a certain point. And if you're already using a high gluten flour, no need to add all that much if any. It is really helpful to know your flours in-depth for bread baking. Happily near me, local groceries are carrying more and more flour options. Their freshness is another matter . . .

Just got some graham flour, man that was good in bread! My "go to" is white whole wheat. I haven't had much luck with the hard wheat whole wheat flour for bread. The protein content may be good, but I haven't liked the flavor. I used to get it in the refrigerator section of my local food co-op. Not sure where they got it . . .

Just wanted to update everyone. This latest batch, I decided to make dinner rolls instead of a loaf and it worked out really well...better portion control and no slicing yet same good taste.

Thanks so much!

My last 2 'loaves' I made into rolls.

Yum! They look gorgeous, Jasdip!