You can definitely make the starter with Rye. It may take a bit longer to do it's magic though..
You could also use White Whole Wheat for the starter..and for the dough...I would start with 2.5 cups of the WWW, and then add more as needed..You want to try and keep the dough soft, and wheat will make it much more dense a bread as it is..so I'd actually go a little "stickier" on the dough then normal...

BUT I AM NO EXPERT..LOL

Terri, thanks for the input. What do you think about using bread flour as part of the flour? I guess it's higher gluten, so it would probably make denser rolls along with the whole wheat? Argh, I know baking bread/rolls is supposed to be easy, but it sure seems complicated to me.

Is your bread flour from King Arthur or some other brand? King Arthur's all-purpose is a higher-protein compared to most all-purpose flours, so another brand of bread flour would actually be a near-equivalent.

A bread flour should actually yield a loftier and perhaps chewier loaf, which from my perspective sounds close to ideal for this recipe.

A combination of bread flour and white whole wheat would also work fine. You might try a 50-50 for the first shot and see how you like it.

Personally I wouldn't use rye; it presents entirely different challenges.

Carol

readinglady, thanks much for the advice. It's King Arthur bread flour and King Arthur White whole Wheat. I made the starter with the bread flour and will let it sit until tomorrow morning. A loftier and chewier loaf sounds great, and I think I'll take your advice and add some white whole wheat. I bought the rye flour for a New York Deli Style rye bread recipe my husband found and wants me to make, I guess I'll save it for that.

Petra, I absolutely agree with Readinglady, a 50/50 combination of bread flour and white whole wheat will make a lovely loaf, as would a loaf of King Arthur all purpose and the white whole wheat.

I seldom make "plain white" bread any more, mine has everything from whole wheat to oatmeal to sweet potatoes in it, LOL. Bread is very forgiving...

Annie

Annie, I'll try a mixture of white whole wheat and all purpose next. If the rolls turn out well with the bread flour, I am planning to bake and freeze a bunch. The price of decent bread around here is ridiculous, artisan loaves cost $4 or more each.

Let us know how they turn out and if you do both versions, which you prefer. It's always interesting to try new variations, but bread is pretty forgiving. I'm guessing success regardless.

Carol

Carol, I'll post how they turn out. It sure is a long process, sponge overnight, and then rolls in fridge overnight, they'd better be worth it. :o)

Well, the texture and crust is nice and they taste okay, but kinda bland. To me, definitely not worth the time investment. I've made rolls from the 5 minutes a day artisan bread before and we liked those better. Of course, I did use whole wheat and bread flour instead of AP, but I can't imagine that would cause them to be bland. Still looking for a really good, tasty, crusty bread recipe that can rival store-bought artisan breads/rolls, guess I'll have to keep looking.

Petra, this recipe for hard rolls/ brat buns has been in my To Try file for about a year but I've not yet made it because I hadn't been able to find malt extract. Found it last week & just waiting for a break in the weather for grilling some brats. Maybe what you're looking for??

Semmel Rolls

In Sheboygan, if you talk brats, you'll also be talking about the Semmel; a substantial, chewy roll with a delicately crispy crust. The Semmel is a close cousin to the Kaiser, but with a distinctive cleavage across the top. The baked Semmel is large -- about 4 inches in diameter and rises to about 2 inches in height. To make the single brat bun, shape the rolls like a hot dog bun before final rising and baking. The genuine Sheboygan Semmel is baked in a brick oven. In your home oven, your results may vary. A baking stone helps.

4 1/2 cups bread flour (approximate)
1 package dry yeast
1 Tablespoon sugar
1 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 cups hot water (120-130 degrees)
1 teaspoon malt extract
1 egg
1 egg white
1 Tablespoon shortening
Rye flour for dusting

Measure 3 1/2 cups of flour into a mixing or mixer bowl and add the yeast, sugar, and salt. Stir to blend well. Pour in the warm water and malt extract. Mix for 1 minute with a wooden spoon or mixer flat beater until a smooth but heavy batter forms.

Add the egg, egg white, and shortening. Beat together until the mixture is smooth. If with the electric mixer, remove the flat beater and continue with a dough hook. Add flour -- 1/4 cup at a time -- until the dough is a solid but soft mass that can be lifted from the bowl, or left under the dough hook.

Knead the dough with a strong push-turn-fold motion for 10 minutes, adding liberal sprinkles of flour if the dough is wet. If in the mixer, the dough will clean the sides of the bowl and form a ball around the dough hook. If, however, it continues to cling to the sides, add sprinkles of flour.

Place the dough in a greased bowl, cover tightly with plastic wrap, and set aside to double in bulk, about 1 hour.

Uncover the bowl and punch down the dough with your fingers. Cover the bowl again and allow the dough to double in volume again, about 45 minutes.

Place the dough on a floured work surface, roll it into a 12-inch long cylinder. With a sharp knife cut 12 pieces from the length (at every inch on the ruler).

Shape the pieces under a cupped palm into smooth rounds. Cover and allow to relax for 5 minutes.

Flatten each roll with your hand to about 1/2 inch thick. Dust lightly with rye flour. With a length of wooden dowel, a round wooden spoon handle, or a pencil, press a deep vertical indentation into the top of each roll. Press firmly and deeply, almost to the bottom (omit this procedure if shaping rolls into single-brat buns). As each roll is shaped, place it face down on a greased baking sheet.

Cover the rolls with a length of wax or parchment paper, and leave them at room temperature to rise -- slightly less than double in size, about 40 minutes.

In the meantime, prepare the oven by placing a pan under the middle shelf. Twenty minutes before the bake period preheat the oven to 450 degrees, quite hot. Five minutes before the rolls are to go into the oven, pour 1 cup of hot water in the pan to form steam and provide a moist environment for the rolls. Be certain hot water is in the pan.

Uncover the rolls, carefully turn them right side up, brush them with water or spray lightly with an atomizer of water.

Place the pan on the middle shelf of the hot oven. Three minutes later lightly spray the interior of the oven -- not directly on the rolls.

Midway through the bake period turn the sheet around so that the rolls are exposed equally to temperature variations in the oven. They are done when crispy brown all over, in about 25 minutes.

Remove the rolls from the oven. If, after the rolls have cooled, they are not as crisp and crusty as you like, put them back into a hot oven for 10 minutes.

Ci_lantro, thanks for the recipe, it looks like it would be very good! I'll have to find malt extract before I try it, I don't think I've ever seen it.

I am a BIG fan of King Arthur flours, but not the white whole wheat. I tried it once and to me, it has an "off" taste. I bake all of our bread (No-knead recipe...love love love it!), and now use only KA bread flour and whole wheat flour, along with various and sundry other ingredients, like oats, seven-grain cereal, semolina, etc., and much as Annie1992 stated, "bread is very forgiving". So, if you don't care for the taste of your rolls, I suggest that you try again, but use something other than the white whole wheat.

I'm sorry to hear that, petra. Is it possible you used a fast-rise (i.e. rapid-rise) yeast rather than the instant?

I know instant sounds virtually identical to rapid-rise but there are some differences. The rapid-rise is designed for single-rise fast-fermented doughs. It's a convenient yeast, but because of the quick development, it doesn't develop the flavor of an instant (which doesn't require proofing) or an active-dry (which does require proofing.)

Either way, sometimes there are recipes that disappoint. There are so many other good ones out there you may find it's not worth fiddling with this one any more than you already have.

Carol

Carol, I just checked the package of yeast I used, and it IS Fleischman's Rapid Rise!! So it's possible the rapid rise is the reason the rolls taste bland? Thank you for taking the time to explain this, I had no idea the type of yeast one uses would impact the flavor!

Coffehaus, I use the white whole wheat for most everything and haven't noticed an off taste. I even use it for pound and bundt cakes, half and half with regular flour. I am going to try a rye bread recipe next, I wonder how that will turn out. ;o)

I'm so glad we figured out the mystery Petra. At least now you know the likely source of the problem.

There are just too darned many kinds of yeast and not enough consistency in labeling from company to company.

Good luck with the rye bread. Just don't over-knead it. Over-kneading rye breaks the gluten strands and the bread can become unappealingly gummy. So be gentle, LOL.

Carol