With dimensions:

A....B has a lot of issues.

Thanks Rantontoo. Can you please elaborate on the issues with B? (Note that I have just now added a bit of detail with my main concerns in the main post).

Definitely A. Not because of what you mentioned above it's mainly from design reasons. A looks more clean and less stuffy plus, you'll be getting those awesome luxury patio doors that leads straight to the island, if you like to entertain - You'll thank me in the future

https://www.houzz.com/user/sarahachevalier

go look at my page, under Idea Books, New Build Gabe- it may give you some ideas for yr kitchen.

I do not see close-by dish storage in B by the dishwasher. Personally, I would prefer immediate landing space for items from the fridge instead of the 48“ away island. I am not sure about all those tall cabs lined up in a row...afraid it might look visually heavy.

How deep is your overhang? I might want to have more room around the prep sink on the stool side.

The U-shape will look more closed in while the L will look more spacious/open especially with the wider entry.

Layout gurus often recommend that the long side of the island run parallel to the cooking surface, but you will want to keep the fridge on the perimeter by the table. Changing the island direction does not work with the shape of the room. There is flipping the sink and cooktop in plan A, but I do not think that is a trade I would make.

Bump...hopefully gives more eyes on your plans.

A is cleaner and more functional.

Thank you for all the replies received so far.

Rantontoo: the overhang is 18” – I often read that 15” is required, but that seems a tad small given my husband is 6’3”. We have 16” in our current house which is fine, but not spacious.

RE: flipping sink and cooktop. I would have been very happy with what I think of as the “classic gardenweb layout” – cooktop and fridge on long wall parallel to the island. I have this layout in my current kitchen (much smaller scale, though), and I confirm it is very functional.

However, in the new build, I find that this layout would have a few issues:

• Dishes and cleanup zone seem far away from dining area
• Dishes and glasses seem far from fridge for a snack
• There may be too much traffic in front of the cooktop/oven
• Many smaller cabinets instead of fewer, larger ones

But my biggest concern is window placement. With the sink on the short wall, logically I would put a window on that wall – but then I would see the neighbor’s house in the winter (when trees have no leaves). I don’t think the cooktop wall would be large enough to accommodate windows (windows on that wall would have a nice view), which may not look too good from the exterior. The house was designed to have all windows positioned so that we have views of the forest or of the valley (no neighbors front or back of house) – windows on the side are limited as I want to have the feeling that we are alone in the woods, and I prefer not to see neighboring houses.

On the bright side:

• Tighter work triangle: prep sink, cooktop and refrigerator
• Very spacious cleanup and dish storage area

I would love to get other opinions if people think I should consider this layout. Is there a way to tweak this layout to make it work, or am I better off with Plan A? I am open to suggestions.

None of the above

A is better with a few adjustments.

The fridge opening in between island is not ideal. I would move the fridge further down from sink to have space to stand in front of comfortably or move island further back from the sink wall.

Also,

The seat so close to prep sink may be splashing on person sitting there.

Make island longer by putting another small cabinet to left of sink, while pushing island further away from sink wall.

spacing diagrams

Buehl – any suggestions?

Artistsharonva – What are your thoughts on appropriate aisle width in front of the fridge? It is currently drawn at 48” from the door to the island countertop. I am a bit torn on this one, because on one hand I want adequate aisle space in front of the fridge, but I don’t want the aisles to be too wide between the island and other countertop. One idea I had was to make the counter a bit deeper (27”), to line up with the counter-depth fridge.

What are your thoughts on appropriate clearance between island seating and prep sink re: splashing? My reasoning is that my current island is 42” deep, split as follows: 4” countertop + 17” sink depth + 21” countertop behind prep sink where there is seating. I don’t find there is splashing. In the new kitchen, I would have 18” overhang + approx. 3-4” before the sink begins, so about the same space. Do you think it makes a difference if seating is on the side vs. behind the sink? Do I need to plan for more counter space?

Mama goose – Thank you for your suggestion. I think it helps to move the ovens to the other wall – I like the windows on the cooktop wall, however do you think I am still left with dishes/cleanup too far away from the dining room and snacks/refrigerator? What are your thoughts on separating the cooktop from the ovens?

Note that I am still torn on whether or not to put a microwave in the kitchen. The other location I am contemplating is in the pantry. We currently have a 24” drawer, and we don’t use it often. I would like to try a steam oven instead, but I can’t help but think that it may be a mistake not to include a MW somewhere in the main kitchen.

Dishes will be near the cooktop, for plating. In the corner uppers, I don't think the dish storage is too far from the fridge. Do you use the dining room for every meal? If so, maybe the dish storage is too far, but if you have helpers setting the table, they don't have to cross the prep and cooking zones--train them to go around the back of the island. Trash pull-out in the island could go next to the sink, and dishes could be stored in drawers in the island, across from the DW.

I don't think the oven needs to be next to the cooktop--most dishes go to the oven for extended periods of time, while you attend to other tasks. Exceptions are items which are seared before being put in the oven, or cookies, which take only a few minutes to bake. You could use the short side of the island for baking prep, and if you have a stand mixer, it can be kept on the counter in the corner, under the dish storage.

Neither like beuhl says

48" should be enough

48" in front of stove, too, so some one can bend over fully without hitting buddocks on island. 1 person can pass when 1 cooking

Spacing in front of fridge. Depends on type of fridge. A 2 door needs less than a 1 door. counterdepth fridge obviously less,too.

In regards to fridge, check fridge manual installation guidelines.

A lot of fridges need to be pulled forward an inch or so so back can breathe.

Better to have more space than less when it comes to spacing in front.

discussion on spacing between island & fridge https://www.houzz.com/discussions/distance-between-refrigerator-and-island-dsvw-vd~3994577

You could pull cabinets fw to make 27" deep,but that causes other issues with appliances, less heigth reach in wall cabinets,costs mor for counter. not necessary,imo

I no longer have a microwave after I found out that it nukes a huge % of the nutrients out of food. There's a lot of debate it's fine,but I just don't trust it. I had a EMF tester & it lit up in red when i was 2 rooms away when microwave came on! i got rid of it that day. There's a lot of debate it's fine,but I just don't trust it.

I thought i would miss it,but i don't.

My sis got rid of hers,too.

I steam or warmup on cooktop & have an stainless steel kettle for quick boiling water for french press coffee. If deciding not to put microwave in kitchen i say great, put in pantry on counter will work.

Both are very nice. Windows placement is different on both plans- have you considered the views? I prefer plan A because it is cleaner. On A I would move all island seating to porch side to keep non cooks out of cooking prep side. Since myhousehold would not need both the pantry cabinets by fridge and the walk-in pantry, I would substitute the pantry cabinets with a coffee station, wine/drinks fridge and built in microwave- again to keep non cooks out of work area when getting drinks/coffee/ snacks.

Wow, it’s so nice to wake up and see all these helpful responses. I really appreciate the time taken to help.

Mama Goose – Yes we use the dining room for most meals (fall, winter and spring) but we will use the covered porch in the summer. My preference would be for dishes to be stored near the dining room so that people can set the table, if we can make that happen.

As far as “trainability” – I don’t think I can rely on being able to train my husband to change. He is a very efficient person who will naturally go for the path of least resistance, so I need to find the best way for him to set the table, put dishes away, get a snack from the fridge, etc. without him being in my way. Just being reaslistic based on living together for 13 years.

Thanks for your comments on cooktop vs. ovens. I don’t sear and transfer to oven that often, maybe 1-2 a week. I would prefer them to be closer together, but I am willing to consider other options if it makes the kitchen more functional. I have looked for a 36” induction range, but there are very limited options (none of which are acceptable, for the time being). That would made my life easier, and would have addressed my desire for safety moving around with hot objects in a household with children.

Cpartist – Thanks for your feedback. May I ask if you have any suggestions?

Artistsharonva – Wow, thanks so much for your detailed feedback. Do you know if the anthropometric diagrams are available somewhere in higher resolution? I am having trouble reading the dimensions and I was not able to find the image in a bigger size on Google. Your comments on microwave are helpful – thanks.

Rainyseason – re: pantry. It is a bumpout in another room. I posted a thread on pantries a few weeks back, here it is: [https://www.houzz.com/discussions/pantry-puzzle-dsvw-vd~5569727[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/pantry-puzzle-dsvw-vd~5569727)

My dilemma with respect to the pantry is that I need to balance pantry space and library space. As far as storage requirements, I like to have small quantities of frequently-used items in the kitchen (e.g. cereal, oats, flour, chicken broth, vinegars, etc.) and an overflow pantry outside of the kitchen proper. One poster (or maybe more) made suggestions similar to yours that I would be better off with a smaller library and just make one long narrow pantry to avoid chopping up a wall, another said I could consider a nook. Long story short, I know the pantry will be in that location but I am still undecided on size.

Keith Dcil – Layout A would have the best views. Views are best from the two long walls of the kitchen, as they look out on the forest. The view on the short wall is on a neighboring house. That is a bit of a concern – the rest of the house was designed so that no windows look out on neighboring houses – we will have the feeling that we are alone in the woods. The only living space where we see a neighboring house is currently the covered porch – but in the summer when we will use it, there will be leaves in the trees and flowers in the garden so that we’ll feel that we are alone.

Your suggestion on the snack station makes a lot of sense; it would be well-placed for easy access from outside of the kitchen, and I imagine that I would put frequently-used items in drawers (e.g. cereals, oats, etc.) I hadn’t thought of doing a countertop-fridge-countertop run. I will try to find inspiration pictures.

I am providing additional information on our family and needs below. Thanks again everybody for all the help. (Warning: this is VERY long!)

Our family:

• 2 adults, one toddler (more babies on the way)
• I’m the main cook, but there are often other people helping me in the kitchen
• 75% cooking, 25% baking
• We entertain 1-2 times a month (6+ people), but the family is growing and friends keep making babies
• We will eat mainly at dining table (on the covered porch in the summer), but will have snacks and occasionally breakfast at island
• We are frequent snackers

Vision/goals:

• Warm minimalist kitchen
• Seamless transition from inside to outside
• I want to walk into a spacious room, filled with light, and see nature when I look outside
• Clutter-free countertops, and drawers/pantry neatly organized
• I imagine myself teaching my son to cook and bake
• I imagine occasionally having friends over to prep meals for the week
• I imagine setting a tradition of having a weekly family dinner at our house

Functional needs – must-haves:

• A kitchen that is safe in a busy house with children
• 4/12 months we will eat outside and 8/12 months we will eat inside. I want the kitchen to have easy access to both indoor and outdoor dining areas.
• Patio doors (min 6’ wide, larger if possible) to access covered porch and BBQ
• Window somewhere on wall opposite patio door
• Ability to see kids in backyard (through patio door)
• Ability to see kids in dining/living
• Plan for two or more of the following tasks occurring at the same time, safely and comfortably:

1. 2 people prepping
2. Cleaning
3. Setting the table
4. Getting a snack
5. Talking with someone sitting at island

• I am not tall and so only the first shelf is comfortable reaching in an upper cabinet. Given the size of the kitchen, we think we can forego upper cabinets and do an all-drawers kitchen.
• Seating for four on two sides of the island – not four seats in a row (this is the ONLY thing my husband has asked to have in the kitchen, we have to make this happen!)
• We are frequent snackers. I would like glass and dish storage close to the refrigerator, but also close to dishwasher for easy putting away. (path of least resistance needed!)

Storage:

I measured my everyday glasses/dishes and need the following dish storage near the dishwasher and dining room:

• Min. 24”W x 24”D drawer (low height) for everyday cutlery
• Min. 24”W x 24”D drawer (low height) for everyday glasses/mugs
• Min. 30”W x 24”D drawer (medium height) for everyday dishes
• Min. 24”W x 24”D drawer (medium-high height) for wine glasses, beer glasses and pitchers – used occasionally

Other dish storage:

• Min. 30”W x 24”D drawer (medium height) for Tupperware
• Other infrequently used dishes can be anywhere in the kitchen
• Serving dishes near cooktop

Pots, pans, baking dishes: I would like to have a combination of horizontal and vertical storage for pots & pans, and baking sheets/dishes.

Dry food: I like to have small quantities of frequently-used items in the kitchen (e.g. cereals, nuts, rice, spices, oils/vinegars, etc.) and store larger quantities in an overflow pantry close to, but outside the kitchen. This is my current setup and it works very well for me.

Wish list (in no particular order) – these are not absolute needs:

• Strong preference to avoid a window on the short (back) wall of the kitchen, as the view will be on a neighbor’s house – views in the rest of the house are on nature
• Strong preference for symmetry, but will settle for visual balance
• Snack/breakfast zone with somewhere to hide toaster (otherwise will be in a drawer)
• Ability to leave the mixer on the countertop in baking zone
• A niche to put cookbooks
• No uppers, with large hood (66”+) integrated in cabinetry
• As many drawers as possible
• Cabinetry style: slab doors, matte white
• Countertop style: Silestone quartz, Calacatta Gold

Appliances & fixtures:

• 42” or 48” side by side fridge (configuration is 18”/21” freezer + 24”/27” fridge)
• 36” induction cooktop
• 30” wall ovens – leaning towards one CSO + one conventional oven
• 24” dishwasher
• Hood vent integrated in cabinetry
• Cleanup sink interior dimensions 30”W x 17”D x 10”H (requires 36” cabinet size)
• Prep sink interior dimensions 19”W x 16”D x 10”H (requires 24” cabinet size)

Aisles:

This morning I measured how much aisle I use for the following tasks – I feel a bit silly posting this, but it has proven to be a very helpful exercise in determining how much aisle space I need:

• Prepping at island, standing in front of cooktop: 15”
• Squeezing between a wall and a counter: 13”
• Walking between a wall and a counter: 21”
• Walking with a half baking sheet (18” x 13”): 27”
• Standing in front of a refrigerator: 27”
• Reaching in a 1st drawer: 27”-33” (depending on if I open 2/3 of the way or full extension)
• Reaching in a 2nd drawer: 30”-36” (30” if reaching from the side)
• Reaching in a 3rd drawer: 33”-39” (30” if reaching from the side)
• Sitting at the island: 21"

I foresee the following combinations most often:

• 1 person prepping + 1 person setting the table: 15” + 30” = 45”
• 1 person prepping + 1 person getting a snack in the fridge: 15” + 27” = 42”
• 1 person prepping + 1 person walking past: 15” + 21” = 38”
• 1 person cleaning + 1 person walking past: 15” + 21” = 38”
• 1 person cooking + 1 person walking past with a baking sheet: 15” + 27” = 42”
• 1 person sitting at island + 1 person walking past: 21" + 21" = 42"
• 1 person sitting at island + 1 person walking past with a food platter from BBQ = 21" + 27" = 48"

If I add an approx. 3-4” adjustment for my husband’s size relative to mine, I think I would be ok with 45” in front of the cooktop, 48” in front of the fridge and 54" between the patio doors and island.

I have made some modifications to Layout A based on feedback received:

• Moved trash & recycling cabinet to the left of the prep sink to allow for more room between the sink and fridge (avoid two people bumping into each other)
• Replaced pantry cabinets with a 36” snack station – drawers can house everyday items like cereals
• Increased cooktop aisle width to 45”
• Made the sink run cabinets 24” standard depth (25” with countertop)

What do you think of the corner susan? Does it make more sense than dead corners?

Do I have enough prep space to the right of the prep sink after moving the trash cabinet?

What do you most want to look out onto (or avoid looking out onto) from the sink? Kids playing, a beautiful (future) garden, the street (plugged up with parked cars — or not), a neighbour‘s unkept yard...?

Do you want to go out onto a patio with the unrelenting sun beating down on you, or do you love baking out there? You may wish to do something to mitigate the heat: awnings, pergola, or trees in the longer term.

Consider the outdoor context of the kitchen. Where are the views, and which one do you value the most? What is the path of the sun throughout the year. In the summer, how high in the sky is the sun at noon and how low in the winter? (Ask long time residents, especially those with enviable gardens — devoted gardeners observe these things over the years.) Do you want to take advantage of that sun or avoid it?

A

I like the latest version (L), with the hood as a focal point, but it still has clean-up in the middle of the prep space, with the zones back-to-back. Having the 48" aisle will help, and you and hubby can just say 'excuse me' when zones cross, but eventually the kids will be helping out, too. Table can be set after you've moved on to cooking--humans are adaptable. I prep in the corner where my dishes are stored, and we've learned to work around it; however, if I could move the DW and dish storage to the other side of the kitchen, I'd do it in a snap.

Another thought--in the layout I posted (R) if you reconfigure the island to store dishes in drawers across from the DW, it would be more convenient for the person setting the table to walk behind the island, rather than to pass through the work zone.

Your plan c is the best one so far.

Have you considered the island for your main sink with DW to the right of it and a drawer for dishes left of it near the dining room? Perhaps a pullout at the end of the island for glasses and a silverware drawer above the dishes drawer.

Thanks very much everybody for the feedback.

Susan Gowen – Views and sun exposure are definitely important. I have attached below a diagram showing the orientations in our space. The only thing I absolutely did not want was a western orientation in the kitchen or in the backyard – it find it simply too hot in the summer.

Cheryl Smith – Thank you for your feedback.

Mama Goose – Thanks for your comments and diagram, I find your advice very helpful. I thought the 48” walkway would be enough to separate the prep zone and cleanup zone, but it sounds like you think we will still bump into each other. I have to say I am leaning more and more towards not having a big window on the short wall because I don’t want to see the neighboring house when I look out the window (close to the corner would be fine because that will look out to trees).

Your idea of storing things in such a way that traffic is redirected toward the seating side of the island is very clever. I will try to incorporate that into the design.

Cpartist – Thank you for your feedback, I was hoping you would chime in!

Decoenthusiaste – I had not thought about putting the main sink in the island. The dish storage would make a lot of sense: I like that it would be convenient to the dining room, fridge (for snackers) and dishwasher for easy unloading. The prep zone would be in the back.

The downside I see is that I don’t think I would prep at the island using the big sink – I really like having a “clean” sink for prepping and a “dirty” sink for cleanup. (I have a few OCD tendencies.)

Here's what it would look like in my space (I'm calling this one A3):

Thanks Cindy. I like the idea of having dishes in the island close to the dining room - where would you place the trash cabinet in that setup?

How extensive is your "library?" I like this idea by the fridge.

New build for us, we have the sink & Dw in our island & right behind ( perminter wall) we have a bank of 3 (x3) drawers, this is where I store the dishes, glasses etc

[houzz=https://www.houzz.com/photos/new-build-gabe-phvw-vp~126220181]

Decoenthusiaste - Love the idea. I am a big fan of books (hence the library in our new build). I would love to find a little niche for my cookbooks in the kitchen and tall vertical storage somewhere by the fridge would make sense.

Cindy - Thanks very much for your response. I've given some thought to your suggestion of doing wide drawers + sink + trash. While it would make dish storage more easily accessible from the dining room, I think I would prefer a layout with trash + sink + wide drawers instead for two reasons:

• With trash on the left, it creates a landing zone for snackers on the island. The fridge will open from left to right, so logically somebody getting something from the fridge would then put it either left of the fridge, or across the fridge on the island, but not to the right of the fridge on the snack counter.
• If I put large drawers to the left of the sink, then logically my prep area will be there because then I would have close to 5ft of prep space to the left of the sink, vs. 2ft of prep space to the right of the sink. This means that someone will be interrupting my prep to reach into the drawer.

Does this make sense?

Your suggestion does however spark another idea: how about storing something on top of the trash/recycling drawer? I had initially thought the drawer above this cabinet would be for foil and plastic wrap, but I could instead do:

• Top of trash cabinet: Cutlery (sealed off so no odors travel from the trash)
• Top of dish drawer cabinet: Glasses
• Middle of dish drawer cabinet: Dishes and bowls
• Bottom of dish drawer cabinet: Wine glasses and pitchers

I think this could take care of my everyday needs in terms of dish storage. What do you think? Reposting Layout A2 below for convenience.

Cheryl - Thanks for the pictures! May I ask the order in which you store your things (drawer 1, drawer 2, drawer 3)? What are the sizes of your drawers? Do you think my suggestion above makes sense?

A is the only one that works for a proper work triangle. Island is in the way in B.

https://www.houzz.com/user/sarahachevalier

Left drawer 1 next the to fridge- has teas + in it >depth inside 3 inches inside 8" outside/door fronts x 24inches wide

Left drawer 2 cups & glasses ( as hubby will place his expresso machine on the counter here

Left drawer 3 empty still 2 & 3= 7.5 inches inside> outside 12 inches x 24

middle sections

1 top drawer- cuterly

2 middle- everday dishes

3 bottom, serving bowls

far right drawer

top- utensils for cooktop area

middle- dishcloths/tea towels

bottom- serving pieces

Then I have another bank of drawers (same) on the right side of the cooktop; which I havent not put anything in yet, as we are "camping out" in the house still- we have not moved all our stuff in from our shop yet.. we are working on the interior finishes now.

I have 2 drawers under the wall oven & 1 drawer under the MW Drawer, pullouts to the lfet of the wall oven,& lots of storage above woven & fridge.

Also on the side of our island- we have 3 sets of cupboards, shelves are 15 inches wide, this will be used for excess dishes & glasses as I have a few different china sets, from my mother.

A2-makes sense to me, but I am no expert>> my hubby is a mechanical Peng- so he can see things in his head, he worked with our kitchen designer, who also had a MEng background, so they understood each other perfectly. This is after we (hubby & I) had worked on it & had about 8 different layouts for our space. We decided to place the sink & Dw in the island as if we had left it on the wall run there was not alot of free counter space.

This build has been our 2nd build, our first was 26 years ago & we wont be doing it again- only because it our retirement home. our last home did not have enough storage for us & now hubby asking me what I am going to with all of this, I dont think he realizes just how much we have lol.

TRASHBINS- our has a metal cover with a small shelf, which I use for extra garbage bags and any paper products for recycling>> my trash are has 2 bins & 2 compost bins in it.

Let me know if you have any other questions..

Cheryl, I really appreciate you taking the time to describe all your drawers! Thanks very much. I will try to plan what goes in what drawer over the week-end.

I just spent an hour reading threads on sizes of prep space and I am having second thoughts about the prep sink placement. With my main prep space on the right side of the prep sink in layout, I would have about 39"-40" of counterspace. Is this enough? Should I just push the prep sink completely to the side of the island (close to the range) and have a giant prep space to the left?

we were going to put a bar sink in as well, but when we switched the sink into our island, we nixed it, as now the sink is right across from where the exp machine is going. Did you make a decission?

Cheryl - thanks for following up!

Since my last post, the dimensions of the kitchen as well as window sizes were finalized. The kitchen will be 14'-6'' x 18'-0'' (and not 15'-0'' x 18'-6'' because it messed up the exterior look of the house). Window sizes have been set to harmonize with the rest of the house, but location is still flexible if we want to move by a few inches.

Here's where I am in terms of layout at this point:

Dish storage is shown in orange.

I was looking for a way for the prep sink to be slightly offset from the fridge. I have added a cabinet to the island and shrunk the other 3 cabinets a little bit:

• 21" drawers for glasses, mugs and wine glasses
• 21" sink base to house an 18" prep sink
• 33" drawers for prep tools, bowls and Tupperware
• 21" trash pullout with drawer on top for ziplocs, saran wrap, aluminum foil, etc.

Next to the dishwasher, drawers for cutlery and everyday plates/bowls.

Some things that are still outstanding:

• I am going back and forth between a voided corner and a super susan for small appliances.
• I am debating whether to shrink the island from 54" to 51". I would like an aisle wider than 48" between the island and French doors, but at the same time I am trying to fit two stools on the short side of the island (with legs). I mocked up the 48" walkway with island seating and it seemed fine, but I'm still hesitant.

Any thoughts are welcome!