Dave, didn't even realize I was correcting you...saw you suggested a search and figured I would recommend my favorites real quick. Anyway, just to clarify for anyone who didn't know...the Ball Complete Book and the Ball Blue Book are different. The Blue Book is small and cheap. The Complete Book is at least $20 and it's much, much bigger with tons of recipes, including some really interesting combinations. It also includes all the directions you need for the canning process. The Blue Book, at least the older editions, is mostly about the canning process and doesn't have as many recipes, mostly directions for tomatoes, plain jam/jelly with pectin, etc. Make sure you're buying the one you want. Melissa

How much of a safety factor is built into the recommended processing times? The times provided in various modern canning books tend to be very sweeping in some ways yet specific in others. For example, vegetable pressure-canner processing times range from asparagus (25min) to whole kernel corn (55 min). Yet dried beans processing times don't very except for container size. If I understand correctly, the goal is to get the internal temperature of the item to 240deg (achieved by venting your canner completely and bringing the pressure to 10psi @STP) I've read on some websites that only 4 minutes at the 240deg temperature is required to kill the spores. I suspect then that the different cooking times reflect the ability of the food item to internally transfer heat throughout the entire container (I understand this is largely due to density, plant chemistry, and the cell structure). So if my understanding is accurate, there should be different cooking times for dried beans based on: 1. bean density/moisture content. 2. size of the bean. 3. type of bean. Yes, it is much safer to make a generic recommendation and err on the side of safety. This said, unnecessary processing reduces the quality of the product. So I undertook an experiment: Last week, I processed a full canner load (18 * pint/500ml jars) of red kidney, turtle, and garbanzo beans. I vented vigourously for 10 minutes, and processed for 75 minutes at 11-13pounds. Tasting the beans the next day, I found them all to be way too soft. As well, the intergrity of each bean suffered (splitting, disintergrating, colour change). Today I did another load of the same beans but processed them for 60 minutes instead of the recommended 75min. The results: 1. The turtle beans texture and appearance in the jar was very close to commercially canned beans. And they tasted just the same. 2. Red kidney beans were softer than commercial products but looked the same. 3. Garbanzo beans were a wee bit harder compared to commercially canned beans but similar in firmness to non-canned samples. Appearance wise they were similar to the commercial products. Each of the beans exhibited different results from processing. These leads me to think that USDA should develop bean-specific processing times. Does anyone know what commercial canners do? And how much extra processing time is required to go say from a safety confidence level of 99.99% to 99.9999%

Should have posted this sooner but here is a reply I got back from an inquiry - Thank you for your interest in the National Center for Home Food Preservation. Regarding your question: (My sent message) Background, I am a home food preservationist with an extensive history of home sausage making (both with hot ((refrigeration required)) and some cold smoking ((humidity and temperature controlled to produce country cured sausage, no refrigeration required)), home canning (pressure canning only, I do not trust water bath under any circumstances) and extensive dehydrating experience. I have done a little pickling under the recommendations that the USDA has out in regards to fish and hardboiled eggs (including the need for refrigeration). However in my research into historic preservation techniques I have found references to pickling (especially) fish preserved at room temperature. The references also stated that the vinegar solution used at the time was homemade and was of strength higher then the present 5% available for modern commercial sales. Given that botulism spores growth is inhibited at a PH of 4.6 and they can not therefore produce the toxins, the fact that! a 10% or 15% acetic acid can be readily produced using food safe glacial acetic acid (99.85% available commercially mixed in proper ratio with water (yes, acid to water, I remember basic chemistry) and the PH of the 10% solution is approximately 2.4 and given that 1.5â x 1.5â x 0.75â pieces of fish would readily equalize PH is this theoretically a safe preservation method. Please do not give me the standard rely of not recommended or approved due to lack of experimental data etc. brush off, I am just looking for a theoretical answer. (The reply) This is Elizabeth Andress, Director of the National Center. I personally apologize for not getting back to you sooner, but we have been trying to keep up with people needing help with more standardized recommendations and methods of preserving. I can tell you that under the circumstances you describe with the low pH environments, that theoretically botulism spore germination and toxin production does not seem likely. But that is indeed as much as I can say. You would want to make sure the fish pieces get below pH 4.6 throughout fairly quickly to keep it longer at room temperature (probably at least within 24 hours). It is not a brushoff but a fact that no one here has any practical experience with pickling fish at room temperature (or for that matter, at any temperature). We do not have USDA pickling or smoking for fish on our website or in the USDA canning guide, but there is information from Oregon State University we have shared on smoking fish. I have pretty much relied on contacts in Alaska, or formerly in Oregon, for issues related to smoking and pickling of fish. You also might find an actual food microbiologist actively researching with bacteria at Univ. of Wisconsin who knows more in detail of C. bot. patterns. Thank you, Elizabeth Andress

Carol - it was confusing b/c the recipe said " Seal jar. Let cool; chill. Will keep up to 1 month." (that's from website, I could have sworn the magazine said "1 month unopened"). So looked like maybe it was open kettle canning? It sure wasn't clear to me it was to be kept refrigerated. Not to mention (as I pointed out to editor) that "sealing" the jar by screwing on a lid (1 or 2 piece) with a silicone sealant would cause a weak vacuum to be pulled as the jar cooled, and botulism toxin could form even in the fridge, b/c I wasn't sure about the 50:50 acid/water ratio in this recipe (NCHFP and Ball recipes are higher acid), and certainly topping off with water if necessary wasn't going to help! I suggested that they vet any future "canning" recipes through food safety expert. Still haven't heard back. Got the farmer's market newsletter for market going on tonight, someone who "grew up canning with her mother and grandmother" is going to be doing a "mock" demo and handing out recipes "to preserve all the fresh fruits and vegetables available now". I suggested that the market manager check the recipes to see that they were from NCHFP, Ball, or university extension(s), and perhaps limit the demo (and info, if possible) to fruits to limit the town's liability. They said it's market day and it's a bit crazy, don't know if they can get to it. I emailed them a link to the elk story, said the same could happen with corn, squash, beans so this literally could be a matter of life and death, they don't want to be handing out potentially dangerous information on canning vegetables. Haven't heard from them either. I wish the state would regulate who can teach canning (at least lo-acid canning) like they regulate (require training and testing) acidified foods (and you have to have a commercial kitchen to sell pressure-canned foods).