I think you'll enjoy her, monsoon99. I don't know anywhere you can walk in and buy a canned plant of her anymore. I have begged a few locals to include her in their mixes, even promising to promote them as sources, but so far, no takers. I wish I had the abiltiy... You should be able to purchase her on line from Burlington, Rogue Valley and Vintage. They will all be small plants which can be encouraged to grow more rapidly if planted in a can to keep the roots warm. GHat is excellent own root. The Ventura County Rose Society Auction should be in spring and they often have plants of her included. If you are of the "immediate gratification" mentality (NOT a judgement, simply a suggestion), you CAN plant more than one, but I personally wouldn't as it is NOT needed. One will easily cover the area you've stated and won't out grow it, where two very likely will and possibly give you too dense a plant, allowing for greater potential for disease issues. Grandmother's Hat is very healthy, but CAN black spot under the right conditions. ANY rose can have health issues under the right conditions. Some are just more prone to it than others. This one is a survivor! Which Laguna are you asking about? There are three on HMF and I haven't grown any of them. Don Juan you should be able to find most nurseries and garden centers (NOT "home improvement stores") that sell canned roses. It can be a little slow getting started, but that is a characteristic of large flowered climbers which flower heavily. A plant can usually bloom or grow. Few do both as well all the time. There will be equivalent roots to balance long canes and the plant is going to grow those before it puts out the wood. Finding one already started in a can, preferably from last year or earlier, will allow you more immediate gratification. Dortmund...well, it can be a very good rose. It's excellent for harsh, arctic type climates. I have one at a client's house in Old Orchard, Valencia. She loves it. It is VIGOROUS, terribly prickly, glossy, dark green foliage and it will mildew on the peduncles and prickles in these climates. It flowers reliably and needs deadheading to force repeat flowering faster. It will repeat without it, but it isn't as "tidy", so that will depend upon your taste and how OCD you are about maintenance. My client loves it for two reasons, it was a plant installed in the garden by a very loved friend who designed it in the first place and who has sinced passed away, and it reminds her of Bougainvillea, which is not sufficiently cold hardy there. I frequently hack large hunks of it off to keep it on her wall, cut out large clusters of spent flowers and hips and at least once a month, have to hose it out to remove all the debris and spider webs it collects. I appreciate it for the accomplishment it is in breeding. I do find the foliage attractive, sort of like plastic holly; it does impress me with the quantity and reliability of bloom for such a cold hardy rose being grown in a warmer climate. I agree it is a suitable replacement for a Bougainvillea where bougies won't grow, or are 'iffy'. Do I want one in my garden? Um, no. Would I use it for breeding? Perhaps. It's more a personal taste issue. Is it a good rose? In many ways, yes, very. It keeps the neighbors on their side of the wall and covers twenty feet of unattractive concrete block. It does what it is supposed to and makes its owner happy. It makes me happy to be able to keep it looking good to keep her smiling. Dortmund should be fairly readily available canned. Again, a more developed one will provide more immediate gratification. A repeat blooming Cl. Mlle. Cecile Brunner...probably your best bet is going to be buying one on line from a source which states theirs is from the reliable repeater. An easier way would likely be to buy a Spray Cecile Brunner. It's a more vigorous bush form which flowers continually and produces wood more elongated than the original seedling, yet not as over powering as the "climber". There is a range of traits a climbing sport can express. Observing a large block of Iceberg will illustrate that perfectly. You'll find anything from more dwarf, very lightly prickled to nearly prickle free all the way to seven foot "bushes" with large, sharply hooked prickles. It isn't an either-or, but a continuum. Where the genes of the bud used to create that particular plant fell on that continuum determines what that particular plant is going to express. Climate and culture will massage that expression greatly. Mlle Cecile Brunner is one of the most bullet proof plants of any kind you can grow in Southern California. The more vigorous types tolerate heavier pruning better than the "dwarf" bush. Once established, it is rudely healthy; continuous flowering (unless you have the spring bloom climbing sport); extremely shade "tolerant" in this climate; a very "long suffering" plant which will often out last the gardeners and gardens in which it is planted. I love that it was named for the 8 year old daughter of Pernet's major competitor. In the early 80s, there was a lovely lady from the Riverside area who volunteered in the herb garden at the Huntington, and who had her mother's climbing Cecile. She made rose petal jelly from it. It was DELICIOUS! In our climate, you can plant Mutabilis, the Banksias and Cecile and they will just GROW! They're seldom afflicted by any pests or diseases and will out grow anything thrown at them. If you want something very similar in a slightly different color, take a look at Perle d'Or, often called yellow or apricot Cecile Brunner. It isn't available as a climber, but it is as gorgeous and wonderful as Cecile. If it helps, Grandmother's Hat, Perle d'Or and all forms of Cecile Brunner are frequently found in old gardens and cemeteries where they've been forgotten and just allowed to do their own thing. THAT is MY kind of rose! Kim

There are plenty of Salvia growers but you might want to rethink using them for cutflowers. They're not the best for that purpose; they "shatter" quickly. Take a look at some of these: CALIFORNIA NATIVES FOR CUTTING For flowers, foliage and/or berries Arctostaphylos MANZANITA Artemisia californica CALIFORNIA SAGEBRUSH Bloomeria crocea GOLDEN STARS Brodiaea elegans HARVEST BRODIAEA Carpenteria californica ÂElizabeth BUSH ANEMONE Cercis occidentalis, C. o. ÂAlba WESTERN REDBUD Chlorogalum pomeridianum AMOLE, SOAP PLANT Clarkia amoena GODETIA Clarkia unguiculata ELEGANT CLARKIA, FAREWELL-TO-SPRING Collinsia heterophylla CHINESE HOUSES Comarostaphylis diversifolia SUMMER HOLLY Corethrogyne (Lessingia) californica CALIFORNIA ASTER Dichelostemma ida-maia FIRECRACKER FLOWER Dichelostemma pulchellum BLUE DICKS, WILD HYACINTH Dudleya pulverulenta CHALK LETTUCE Epipactis gigantea GIANT STREAM ORCHID Eriogonum arborescens SANTA CRUZ ISLAND BUCKWHEAT Eriogonum giganteum ST. CATHERINEÂS LACE Eriophyllum confertiflorum GOLDEN YARROW Eriophyllum lanatum arachnoideum GOLDEN YARROW Galvezia speciosa ISLAND SNAPDRAGON Hesperocallis undulata DESERT-LILY Hesperoyucca whipplei CHAPARRAL YUCCA Heteromeles arbutifolia TOYON Iris Pacific Coast Hybrids PCH IRIS Isocoma menziesii COAST GOLDENBUSH Juncus balticus BALTIC RUSH Juncus effusus COMMON RUSH Juncus mexicanus MEXICAN RUSH Juncus patens RUSH Juncus xiphioides FLAT-BLADED RUSH Leymus condensatus GIANT WILD RYE Leymus triticoides BEARDLESS WILD RYE Lilium "Corallitos Hybrids" CORALLITOS LILIES Lilium rubescens CHAPARRAL LILY Madia elegans ELEGANT TARWEED Mahonia ÂGolden Abundance G. A. BARBERRY Mahonia ÂSkylark SKYLARK MAHONIA Melica californica CALIFORNIA MELIC Mimulus aurantiacus and Hybrids BUSH MONKEY FLOWER Monardella crispa WAVY-LEAF DUNE MINT Monardella villosa COYOTE MINT Myrica californica PACIFIC WAX MYRTLE Perityle incana GUADALUPE ISLAND ROCK DAISY Philadelphus lewisii californicus CALIFORNIA MOCK ORANGE Polystichum munitum WESTERN SWORD FERN Rhamnus californica COFFEEBERRY Ribes aureum gracillimum GOLDEN CURRANT Ribes sanguineum glutinosum RED-FLOWERING CURRANT Solidago californica CALIFORNIA GOLDENROD Solidago spathulata COAST GOLDENROD Symphoricarpus SNOWBERRIES Trichostema lanatum WOOLY BLUE-CURLS Triteleia hyacinthina WHITE HYACINTH BRODIAEA Triteleia laxa PRETTY FACE, TRIPLET LILY Vaccinium ovatum EVERGREEN HUCKLEBERRY Wyethia angustifolia NARROW-LEAF MULE EARS Zigadenus fremontii STAR-LILY Joe

I'll have to look for Clausen. The tree we lost to a freeze came from a grower. It looked bad when we bought it, but the nursery said it should be fine. Wrong. It rarely freezes here. This year it was too warm for snow, but up high, snow fell and actually stuck. My seed avocado is very happy with new growth. The old leaves show some freeze burn. Neighboring Temecula got 2 feet and stuck for 2-3 days! It snowed in Fallbrook too. Hopefully this year's supply of trees didn't get hit by freezing temps. I now know what to look for, and would love a Sharwil, but driving almost to Mexico for that Bonita Fruit Tree Nursery doesn't float my boat! Our mango, macadamia, citrus, olives, are all thriving, and I may just get another Mex Grande. We don't need a dwarf. Plenty of room here. We can swing by Atkins next Saturday when we go to Temecula for the grand kid's soccer. Prolific limes make great guacamole, and we have them!

kt, Glad to hear I'm not alone in my driving aversions. Yah know, ya can learn something about yourself every day. I never really thought about it, but scent _is_ important in my gardens. Maybe that's why I grow so many herbs? As for Roman chamomile, I think that in warmer climates it could be invasive. Mine usually dies back every year (although it stays green well into the winter) and comes up from the roots and a few seedlings around the mother plant. It has never spread out in to the rest of the garden. I kind of wish it would, because it would be a nice groundcover under the roses. The leaves themselves look very light and feathery. Hey, maybe I should buy some more..... I agree that the herb garden is rather full, even with some plants in pots on the wall and others in the walkway. But, I tell ya, working in that garden on a summer morning will be real multi-sensory pleasure. kt, if your design software is a no-show, I can take a crack at mapping out an herb garden in Excel based on these elements. I also have a house design package that I used for the additions this year. It has a garden function that I haven't used. It doesn't look to be optimized for curved/circular gardens, since it is primarily for foundation plantings, but I can give it a try over the holiday and see if I can produce something useful. Like you, I have my entire family coming up for our traditional New England Thanksgiving. My 82-year old parents, sister, brother-in-law, six kidlings from three to 18 and their dog, will be invading on Wednesday. On Sunday, when they all leave, I also have to head down to Newark Airport to fly to Brazil for a week long business trip. Yes, I plan to sleep for the entire flight down. So, if I disappear from the forum again for a few days, ya'll know why. Just in case anyone drops out before me to prepare for a similar invasion (that means you, kt), have a Happy Thanksgiving!!! narcnh (who snuck outside in his jammies while typing this just to crush and smell some Roman chamomile)