The old saying about men 'aging like fine wine' is ever more often leading to the thought that whoever came up with that bit must have a medical problem that affects their sense of taste so that the bitter and the gross tastes good.

The fact that it's often paired with some comparison of women aging like milk left in the sun or shriveled useless grapes just shows their misogyny.

I knew what gender wrote that within the first paragraph I read. Typical.

"Just make sure when you smack them there are no witnesses lol"

I would say exactly the opposite. The more who witness the reaction, the better. Might serve to shame the harasser. I might even react reflexively by yelling out in surprise and having my arm and fist land a punch to a very sensitive area-purely reflexive, of course.

Pretty sure there is more truth in that article than anyone wants to admit. Pretty sure the hazards listed are EXACTLY why it took women sooo long to break into these areas. We are sexual beings. It gets in the way TOO OFTEN. Add to that the women who live off their ability to tease and flirt their way and LIKE IT. They know the power they have and they feel completely free to wield it all day, anywhere any time. To say men are or will be confused is an UNDERSTATEMENT. The upside is children having their own moms at home raising them would be fabulous for the children.

Justerrilyn, that excuse of needing release is hogwash.

Acy you bring up good points.

I don't cyn, it's inexcusable but a lot of men go around thinking with the wrong head. They actually sometimes get build up and it comes out nocturnally.

That assessment of the male sex drive doesn't even address the ways that women have been socialized to view sex for centuries - women may have fewer partners in their lifetime because they have been socialized to believe that only 'bad' women have many partners, that no man will want a woman who has a lot of sexual experience as a committed long-term partner/wife...there are comparisons to a pre-licked candy bar, chewed gum, and so on. How can sex drive be assessed in women in an objective manner when human society has always, predominantly, enforced one standard for females and another one entirely for males? Women aren't supposed to want sex, they aren't supposed to care about sex and they most definitely shouldn't be having sex with whomever they please or on a rotation of new partners as often as they wish. We have anecdotes about mothers telling their virginal/newly married daughters things like 'lie back and think of England'; where the purpose of sex for women is to conceive children, and so must be tolerated until the objective has been reached. As long as we think of sex as something women do with the objective of having a child or to perform their 'duty' to their husband while thinking of sex as something men do for *themselves*, we will continue to misunderstand the subject of sex drives as related to gender.

Anybody with at least one hand and access to the internet can get all the “release” they need.

I do think that 1-2 years’ parental leave would be a wonderful thing for people in the USA. We get minimum 12 months on employment benefits here—my husband and I are splitting it. 24 months would be even better, 12 for each parent.

I don't know I'm not a sex expert but the study in the link I posted above does shed some good light on the subject.

Robo, I think parental leave would help a lot.

Oh my, justerri, I don't even know how to reply to that. You may want to look up "wet dreams" which have nothing to do with some imaginary "build up." Science is your friend. Really.

I'm not a 'sex expert' (well, the mister might say differently but I'm talking about more officially recognized forms of expertise...) either but found it noteworthy that the cultural and social aspects that are applied to the subject of sex and sex drives in women in real-world practice were lacking in his analysis.

Cyn427, yes I guess all the biology I read is wrong. And, all the U.K studies as well.

I do think your idea of yelling out the second a harassment happens is pretty brilliant. Everyone would then be witnesses. It wouldn't be a he said she said. I think you are the person to implement this action.

Me again! How about "Action Ssarah" If someone is getting harassed they scream Ssarah! It's harass backwards. Then, those around will immediately know what's up.

...Except a woman yelling out "STOP TOUCHING ME BAD MAN!" (or something like that) in the office will make everyone think she's a touch wacky in the head, thereby causing problems for her career and potentially other women's career opportunities in the future just in a different way than the caveman to the right imagines.

OMG! Putting blame on women for a man's need to "release" while in an office setting.

Think about what this means.

I am not a Duggar, are you?

Jenn, don't you think giving it a name will quicker bring people to attention on the exact problem at the exact moment?

like yelling fire instead of ... hey let's get out I think something might be burning.

I think having a word to yell would also help a flustered victim.

Maddie, are you high? Where did I say women should get gang raped at work on a daily basis?

I think "STOP!" is a perfectly good word!

Yes stop is good but if there was a word that directly associated with harassment I think it could give more of a punch. A shame to the man punch, a stop punch and a everybody note what you have seen and heard punch.

I mean, if you are in an office and yell stop it could mean stop taking my pencils. If you want a quick alert audience I think it needs a name.

His argument is so skewered he should be ashamed. I admit I don't pay attention to all accusers, but what I've seen is the accusers are talking about forced moves on them from the men, like forced kisses that are unwanted, grabbing their private parts & proud of it!, or rape. He's talking about joking around? Puhleeze.

Saying that, I'm sure there is a small minority of women who jumped on the Me Too bandwagon when they shouldn't have.

The guy's an idiot. :)

Someone said it's funny how these poor, poor men seem to be powerless to control themselves, when at the same time they manage to have plenty of power & control in their jobs, etc.. Why should women be blamed for these men's lack of self-control?

And is it impossible to imagine someone else's life experience might be different from one's own?

And ew yes! When someone is saying they were "kissed", they don't mean a peck on the cheek!

Tongue. Just sayin'...

I just reread the above and didn't see where anyone said men are powerless to control themselves.

For me personally they need training. They need moms to bring them up to have respect for women. Over the last decade a lot of cycles and learned behavior has changed for the better. We have a ways to go. I also said they can't be us.That is biologically impossible even with a sex change. However, they need to respect us. I for one don't want to de-masculine men but I do want manners and understanding. I also want women to start reacting at the time of the harassment. It was different in the past but now there is no excuse. I only put so much stock in 50 yr old accusations. Not because I don't believe women should have a voice but because it's almost impossible to prove as fact.

Add to that the women who live off their ability to tease and flirt their way and LIKE IT. They know the power they have and they feel completely free to wield it all day, anywhere any time. To say men are or will be confused is an UNDERSTATEMENT. The upside is children having their own moms at home raising them would be fabulous for the children.

And maybe women should remain barefoot too?

JT, why is it the mom's job to teach her sons to have respect for women? Fathers/men absolutely have a role/responsibility to teach their sons as well. One of the most important ways to do this is to model that behavior for them.

Yes, cycles need to be broken.

My point was that now that women are finding more of a voice they can do a lot of good.

I purposely limited my sons involvement with my own father and his friends. It was very...I can't even put it into words. But it was the best thing for my sons. I had to make some tough decisions. And, I love my dad. This is why I can't abide by those trying to find ways to attack me personally. I have made many sacrifices in odd ways. Sometimes I worry about all the hate out there. We have more in common then we don't even if in different parties.

Although, I do admit to looking at things in more of a kaleidoscope fashion. It's not something I can help. I see more fragments of all instead of a bullseye, even if I don't have a good way of expressing it in writing.

And who is to say that when a woman yells "STOP", that there won't still be people who think "Drama queen" and "She's sending him confusing signals"? Or an abundance of people who believe these things, who may be an alert audience, yet nothing changes?

I believe that all men are perfectly capable of restraining their 'urges' to get through the work day without sexually harassing or assaulting someone! Being capable doesn't appear to be enough for more men than it should be - perhaps they needed extended time learning to play nice with others, to keep their hands to themselves, and to respect both their work and their colleagues enough to not grope, leer, comment or rape them? Or perhaps there is something society tells men is more important to have, the qualities a man must possess in order to be successful - which more than a few have taken to mean "do what you want to the women, we're okay with that and won't punish you as long as you continue to make *us* money, and don't get turned into a public spectacle by the media over your disgusting behavior towards feeeeeeeeeemales for cripes sake"? Really, Caveman putting his foot right in the middle of his mouth pondering on the potential loss of male mentorship for women in the workplace only shows me how many industries need more women in top positions if just for the future mentorship factor alone - industries like tech have exhibited a practice where they hire a woman for a job that it will be near impossible for anyone - male or female - to successfully pull off. If she somehow manages to do it, it's because of outside help/unrelated positive changes in the business world/nothing she did was special and what she did could have been done by practically anyone at all. If she fails then she is lambasted for her incompetent blundering and it was a great failing on the part of the company to even entertain the thought of hiring her for such an important job which she was clearly and wholly not qualified to do. 45 has stated that the women he's hired for top positions work very hard, 'like they have something to prove' - not even realizing that well...they DO! If only because we're still dealing with this mindset of women not being able to do certain jobs as well as men and that if they somehow work their way up the corporate ladder they must achieve twice as much as any man who wanders into the office, put in twice as much time, and never do anything that might cause the head boss to regret giving her a chance because it won't just mean an end to her job but prevent other women from being able to move up like she did down the road...The pressure to not just exceed the standards set for men, but to prove that women have every right to be there doing that job...if she slips she's ruined things for the whole gender.

There aren't a great number of women who, if given to excess all the power and privilege as the boss - say as a movie production company exec - are going to blacklist any young actor who rejects her invitation to a hotel room shower, after being lulled into a false sense of security by her inclusion of male staffers in the initial portion of the interaction...Young men don't have the same tiny window on their acting career, young women can expect even the loftiest career success to only last a decade at most after which they will only get made-for-tv b-movie stuff or simply fade into obscurity. Actresses with long careers are part of a very tiny and exclusive bunch, but even they have noted that while Jennifer Lawrence started getting roles written to portray 30 and 40 year old women while barely into her 20's, these actual 30 and 40 year old women begin to see themselves cast to play the mother of Lawrence's 30-40ish character. Leading men continue to age, always with an ever-younger actress cast as the love-interest lead beside them. This age difference can begin to border on ridiculous and edge closer to disgusting depending on the box office power the actor represents - if he's the title character for a franchise box office success you can pretty much count on his female co-star and romantic interest being barely 20ish when he's in his 50's and beyond. She'll eventually be replaced, for another barely 20ish starlet pairing with a guy who could be her dad...or her granddad...or....*ew*.

Life isn't fair, but to judge and punish women for getting a place at the table that used to be reserved for men while letting men put all the responsibility to control MEN'S BEHAVIOR on women for just existing? For being there at the office and female? With all the grumbling about personal responsibility why is it that when sexual harassment and sexual assault is involved, the only responsibility society is concerned with is that of the woman? Like I said, I know men are perfectly capable of controlling themselves - the problem is that too many of them just....don't want to and won't. But it's not my fault if they don't want to and won't because I happen to have breasts at the office.

We tell women to be vigilant and to protect themselves, but refuse to do anything about the wolves roaming free, even when they have been caught and brought to our legal system in hopes of obtaining justice in the form of at least caging a dangerous animal - we wonder if she led him on, if she drank too much, and how such a 'nice man' possibly be capable of such actions since the mask he showed everyone but the victims never slipped otherwise. Why must women quit their job, tolerate the lewd, creepy, and persistent, endure in silence lest their whole future lives be destroyed, and should they dare to speak up while still within the demanded time period they will be labeled, shamed, blamed and exiled even if their attacker is convicted. The defense attorney in court, the media, everyone she knows and everyone he knows...after he gets out of jail his life will be restarted and it's very likely he'll find a woman to have a relationship and family with (depending on his age), he will just go about the business of living. His victim lives a shadow life, the victimization by him and by the process of seeking justice will never not be part of her. When do men start having to actually measure up to a comparable standard for behavior as that expected from women? When will whining about women going to college reducing their job prospects as men be declared ridiculous for men who can go to college themselves but chose not to in spite of all evidence that the jobs of the future will need higher education as the manufacturing middle class careers vanish as they have been fewer and fewer FOR MORE THAN A DECADE? Basically - when do we stop making excuses for men and stop letting them make excuses for themselves? When do we recognize that they are not the victims of women? When does it change? When does it STOP?

Well, if you don't think STOP would be effective, how about NO!!

Okay Oly but when Gloria Steinem comes up with a "word" remember you heard it from me first lol.

There is a big difference in asking a co-worker on a date and showing a co-worker your genitals. If men today don't learn the lesson of how to keep it in their pants and their hands to themselves, then they deserve whatever exposure they get in 30 years. However I doubt it's going to take women 30 years to come forward in the future.

We're in the midst of great social change. 30 years from now who knows what society will be like? More gender fluid and accepting? More prudish? I suspect that ancient patriarchal modes are going to be thrown out as society moves toward a more accepting and tolerant interactions. Women aren't going to be silenced any more.

I find the original piece cited in this piece to be patronizing, and honestly, typical (of an entitled, 50+, white, middle-aged guy).

justerri, I will definitely yell out and react "reflexively" should I ever be grabbed or touched the way these women have been. :-) The men had better protect their own genitals.

You know, biologically I want to eat bon bons all day and if my id had its way, I would. But being a "homo sapien" (from "sapient" meaning knowing) I am wise enough to know better. Same goes for my sex drive. I have lived with men all my life, their natural sex drives are not uncontrollable. Wanting to do something, having the urge, does not make your behavior uncontrollable. All our natural drives will bend to our mind's will, our brains are that strong. But many people rarely use their brain's full capacity. And the habits you feed grow, and the ones you don't nurture die. Your choice.

So where is this time machine that would enable someone to travel back in time 20, 30, 40,50, 60 or more years and raise all these kids right?

What about acknowledging the reality of what actually happens, what has happened, rather than declaiming what should happen? How is that useful?

I just read a deeply disturbing story that illustrates what I wrote earlier in this conversation. It also provides an enlightening view of what sexual harassment does to the victim, and how it is wielded by powerful men against them.

Thanks for that link, runninginplace. It was hard to read, but powerful.

Extremely powerful, runninginplace. Thank you.

Just want to add that I heard a woman today, a conservative Christian writer, who was abused by a preacher when she was a young girl, point out that predators prey on those they perceive as weak and vulnerable, not the strong.

So the idea that anybody can simply resist a sexual predator is just so wrong.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/13/570603492/nancy-french-on-implications-of-alabama-election-for-christian-conservatives

I agree Carol, this isn't a topic where it's a one size fits all. There are many roads. Many forks. Many paths with all different sorts of Scenarios . In some ways we needed a president at this stage who makes a mockery of our government, on purpose. It has oddly taken the plug out of the dam. I think it good for America for the pendulum to swing left and right, right to left.

That was a great read, runninginplace, thank you for sharing that.

I understand the temptation to put some onus on the victim when it seems like "if they just........." but I think as a matter of integrity, we need to work diligently to treat sex crimes like any other. We don't implore hit-and-run victims to just stay out of the streets, we don't blame homeowners whose homes are robbed, we don't blame victims of identity theft, etc. -even though in all of those scenarios there are things the victims might have done to protect themselves. We have to resist the temptation to shift the blame to the victims and insist that it rest squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator. Yes, most men are, in general, more sexually assertive than most women. But there is a great, vast field of truth between normal, male sexual behavior and the behavior of these bullies. I have a theory that most of these men act as bullies in other aspects of their lives as well. I believe many/most/all of these perpetrators are serial attackers and that they treat abominably anyone they perceive as below them -women, children, disadvantaged people, etc. Change will come when we stand up to them and stop making excuses for them.

I am a survivor of domestic abuse, the man I was in a relationship with before I met my husband, battered me physically and emotionally. To say that I had to do a lot of work to heal from the experience is an understatement. I could have chosen not to, but then I would not have met or married the man I now am with.

My ex is a living breathing contradiction - the most dedicated friend who beats the women he gets involved with. How could someone so caring to his friends (of either gender) be so cruel to someone who he commits to a closer relationship with, a deeply intimate one? In truth, his dedication to friends masked the control and willingness to use violence to keep them from betraying him as well. But I (and undoubtedly everyone else) couldn’t see that until we had been lured in, to his trap. My ex is merely a different variety of Weinstein, and there are many varieties and many in these categories.

Thank you for sharing Jenn! I'm the child who lived in such a home. It's a tough thing to share. As a grown women I have a wonderful husband who is also the polar opposite of...I have a say. I'm very happy with my life. I did go through a stage as a young adult where I was not very trusting of others as a result of my earlier life.. As an adult I have noticed that often those that preach the loudest about opened mindedness tend to be the least open minded when things don't fit perfectly into their preconceived notions. I try to give them a little slack though.

Edited to add:

By the time I was twelve I had lived through a divorce, parental mental illness, neglect ,abuse both mental and physical, attempted suicide, alcoholism, prescription drug abuse and a host of social stigmas. In my twenties my younger and only brother was murdered. With his death I see a direct link to learned behavior on his part. Yes he was an adult and should have made better decisions. However, I'm not sure if he grasped what those better decisions were. So, I strongly believe good parenting could have made a big difference.

I love your writing Bestyears! You express the bigger picture very well. I think we also need to remember that some of these perpetrators are women. It's maybe not as often but it is real. Not all men welcome sexual advances from women just because they are a man. See my mention above on an experience my husband had with a female boss and her lack of underware.

My parents have been married since 1968, and their marriage is the kind of relationship I always aspired to and feel I can actually have with the mister. I think the one thing that growing up in the home I did with their amazing example that left me open to an abuser was the trust in one another. They trust that neither will or would ever harm the other, that their love can overcome all things, that as long as they are together in the 'fight' they will succeed. Being too trusting with the wrong person made it easy for me to pass right on by signs that he was a dangerous individual, I'd never seen the abusive dynamic at home, and it doesn't always play out like these kinds of relationships are portrayed in tv/movies/media. But without trust there cannot be romantic love, nor unconditional love. And so to heal I had to rebuild my ability to trust in others, just more selective about *who*.

As we were watching the online news last night, they were talking about the Salma Hayek article and how big of a deal this is with the Time cover, that we have unmasked a societal/cultural change, and that is something that is normally extremely difficult to do.

I wanted to add there has been a crowd-sourced survey of harassment in academia. There are over 1500 people who have reported. I have never experienced anything like this and have had wonderful mentors, and all the grad students were supportive of each other.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/12/08/what-can-crowdsourced-survey-sexual-harassment-academia-tell-us-about-problem

Like a PP said, how hard is to keep your hands to yourself, your privates in your pants, your pants on, and NO means NO.

How do some of you feel about the porn industry? It certainly doesn't help women and the stuff that is readily available on the internet these days will certainly give many (maybe most) young boys a very twisted view of what is normal in male-female relationships.

Most of us grew up with an inanimate magazine, but what is out there now is at the other extreme ... interactive with cameras and women performing whatever the men ask them to do. I wouldn't want to be a young woman in this day and age and have to deal with young men raised with this type of porn.

Was blown away by Selma Hayek's article. To have a meaningful discussion we need to differentiate between rape, sexual assault, and harassment. Hayek DID say no, repeatedly, and did fight against Weinstein. But he continued to bully her in a sexual way, which is harassment. And he got away with it because of the power he wielded in her industry and a lack of an accountability force in his work.

Weinstein seems to fit standard psychopath behaviors--charming and charismatic on the surface, good at manipulating people, gets a kick out of pushing boundaries, and has the inability to ever respect them because to respect social boundaries you have to be able to empathize with your fellow humans. The golden rule of how to treat people which is totally logical, makes no sense if you cannot imagine an "other" as being anything outside of an object. And that goes for the way psychopaths treat both men and women. Psychopaths are not all Hannibal Lecter's, many are highly functioning and respected members of our society, due to their charm and for some, intelligence. And many do not "mean" to harm people and can be taught to treat people well, but in a mechanistic way. But by the time someone is in the position of Weinstein, too many people are invested so it will take a "village" so to speak, to hold them accountable. It takes quite a while for enough people to understand how twisted the person is, because if you have never seen it or experienced it in person, based on the person's outside face, you find it unbelievable. They can hold it together for a while and say just the right things to gain sympathy and positive attention. Ask me how I know . . .

Years ago I had a very weird boss, who everyone thought was a saint but could be casually cruel just as easily as casually eloquent and charming. He would mouth the words about how we were all one big family and folks would believe him . . . until they experienced his dark side. One of the people who worked with him told me once, "I used to think he was a great guy and my friend, and then I realized he was NOT a great guy, and NOT my friend, and the only person he cared about was himself." But hard to pin anything on him since so many folks practically worshiped him.

The porn where the women perform based on requests from their audience usually requires the watcher to pay if they want to request anything in particular, so it's unlikely that young boys are going to gravitate to that (unless they have some kind of job, but even then I'd guess that they'd spend their cash on stuff more important to them - game systems, etc - than live camera porn...). While I'm not against porn per se, I believe that it has created problematic expectations for both what naked women should look like and sexual activity. A super skinny woman with large breasts that the guy can basically do whatever to while she seems to be at the very least uncomfortable and more likely in pain. The problem with STD and HIV transmission in the adult entertainment industry hasn't eliminated it, they just find new performers and move to whatever area or country they can operate from for the most money with the least regulation or oversight. (the movie makers and distributors - the performers don't really make as much now that the majority of content is created outside of the San Fernando valley area of SoCal. Europe, Asia, and to a lesser extent South America are where things are coming from these days.)

Worldwide sex trafficking is something I'd be more concerned about than porn, though some porn is made using trafficked women and girls. Brothels and pimps are supplied with sex workers through abductions and deception (they tell the individual they will be working as a waitress, maid, model, etc and when they agree to this arrangement they are flown or otherwise transported out of their home country and when they get to where they are going their documents are taken and they are put to work as prostitutes). It would not surprise me at all if some of the 'cam girls' are trafficked. It would shock me if they are *not*.

This may be a stupid question but can one put a complete block on a computer for access to porn sites? Sort of like parental controls with TV viewing for the children in a home? I no longer have children at home but was wondering.

I didn't allow my kids a bedroom computer till they were seventeen. The main computer was right off the family room next to the kitchen so I could monitor. But, even then I found a downloaded picture of a naked women with Britney Spears head super imposed.

I'm obviously not a techy.

Anyone who is getting ideas about how to treat women from magazines, porn or otherwise, is seriously sequestered. I guess some folks are very susceptible to media influences, and I think we need to train our young folks to be aware of how their environment influences them so they can be more conscious/deliberate about it. I know I am very particular about what media I will allow into my world, but many of my friends and even my SO, are not. They see it as way more harmless than I do. So this could just be my bandwagon, but I know this struggle has been going on for a very long time . . .

People spend a lot of time online these days, the possibility of internet porn influencing young people's views of sex and women - and they are much more likely to be viewing things but lacking real life experience to indicate differently - is entirely feasible. Pair that with how few parents talk to their kids early and often in age-appropriate ways about sex and their bodies, it's a recipe for trouble.