I can understand why your situation is upsetting.

How has your relationship been with your daughter, as she grew up ? Did you always give her money?

Why do you think she has ended up as a person who does not pull her own weight and expects people to help her all the time ?

I think you have done the right thing and she will come to regret her actions, I am sure, when she has her own daughter to deal with.

My DD is 21 and I am planning a conversation with her, where I will say to her " I cannot tell you what to do anymore, my role now is as an advisor, I cannot make decisions for you anymore". Or words to that effect.

It's quite a transition - going from the "child" to the adult, and I really think some children don't "get it".

It's also a shame for you that other people in your family are not helping your daughter by continually handing out money to her, but you really have not control over that, other than suggesting to them that she needs to grow up !

Good to talk - get it all off your chest.

All the best.

P

P,
Thank you so much for responding to my post. I just needed someone to listen. I feel like I am banging my head up against the wall. I have beaten myself up over and over again about what I did "wrong." When she was growing up, I never had much money and she understood that. She was not spoiled by me, however, her grandmother (my ex's mother) who is quite well off spoiled in her excess.

I think the reason she doesn't pull her own weight is because she knows she can always run to grandma and she will pull her out of a jam. I can't tell you how many times grandma has lost money on apartment deposits because my daughter will not continue to pay the rent and ends up evicted.

By the way, my daughter has two children. Last summer she was arrested for child neglect. She lost the children for 6 months. Her ex got them. I was okay with this because she wasn't taking care of them. I knew her ex (who was living with his parents) would. After a few months, he dropped them off on her doorstep and told her that he couldn't deal with raising them anymore. So she has them back now.

Anyway, when they arrested her for child neglect, she immediately called "grandmama" and she posted her bail. I knew nothing of it until after the fact. (We weren't estranged then, but I guess she knew grandma would whip out the checkbook with no questions asked.)

Grandma pays for everything. I simply can't. I am still raising my two sons who are still living at home. I am not as well as off as grandma is. I have told grandma to stop because she is really doing my daughter an injustice. But grandma just laughs about it.

I guess what hurts me most is that my family (mom, dad, aunts, etc) attended this wedding knowing how hurt I was over being intentionally left out. I am not sure how to deal with them. By attending, I feel like they approved of her actions. My own father called me afterwards and told me that I missed a big shindig. Then proceeded to tell me how nice everything was. This was a stab in the heart. I couldn't believe he did that to me.

Meanwhile, all my family does is bash my daughter when she is not around. They talk about how lazy she is, etc...My dad was the one who told me I did the right thing. He said that she needed to be told the way it is. Yet, he goes to the wedding and eats it all up and I am the one left out. I am really confused.

I know I can't control what my ex's family does. But I sure didn't expect this from my own side of the family.

Any thoughts on how to handle this with my family members? I am thinking of becoming the estranged from my own family because the pain is too great. Am I being rational about this?

I am afraid I will never recover from this hurt. Can someone please advise?

kmtt

kmtt, I am so sorry for everything that has happened to you and can relate on so many levels. You did the right thing with your daughter, she was getting married and needs to learn to stand on her own feet now. Sounds like she's getting mixed message on growing up since her grandmother will give her any money when she needs it.

I would've given her the same advice over the job at the library. It seems so many kids today are waiting for the perfect job to come along and is there any such thing?

You stated:

"I guess what hurts me most is that my family (mom, dad, aunts, etc) attended this wedding knowing how hurt I was over being intentionally left out. I am not sure how to deal with them. By attending, I feel like they approved of her actions. My own father called me afterwards and told me that I missed a big shindig. Then proceeded to tell me how nice everything was. This was a stab in the heart. I couldn't believe he did that to me."

Oh how I feel your pain, I am dealing with the same hurtful behavior on both my side and my hubbys. You must feel like shaking them and asking how they could still go to the wedding when she wasn't including her own mom!

Our family members do not get how much their behavior enables my son and dil to continue acting the way they do. Heck, if everyone see's them and acts as if nothing is wrong that does send a message that they must be right.

I am so hurt that my brother has had the chance to talk to my son but hasn't. My hubby's family is considering including them for Thanksgiving dinner this year (we are spending it on my side of the family.) I told my sil that I don't want her to include them, that this just enables them to continue this behavior with us. My sil tells me that her daughter wants them to come (they are close to the same age,) and she doesn't want to have to tell her daughter no since she is already upset with her over something! My god, what is wrong with this picture?

I'm sorry, the entitlement issue is huge now, epidemic in fact. These kids are so self righteous and self centered, they care only about their feelings, most of which are exagerated beyond belief!

I'm done walking on egg shells and putting up with this. If my sil invites my son I seriously doubt I can or will have a relationship with her after that. I've put up with two years of this pain and almost complete lack of support from our family members and I"m done with it.

anniebal

Kmtt

Did you talk to your father about how you feel ? Sometimes people are really insensitive, maybe your family just did not realize the affect it was having on you.

Time will heal...I know you know this and it's really not very constructive for me to make that comment. I think you should take some time out from thinking about all this, and just let it go for a while. It is not going to make any difference to the situation, is it ? Just carry on as normal and focus on some joy in your life.

If you give it time, you might come to some sort of resolution.

Did you daughter marry the father of her children ?

I guess your side of the family might have thought attending the wedding was the best thing to do, for them and your daughter. Maybe they just don't know what to say about it, now.

It's probably best to keep communication open with your family, and definatly have a gentle talk with them about how you are feeling.

I hope things improve for you.

P

That is awful and I would pray that the children find a surrogate parent in one of the neighbor's families and/or sports (instead of gangs or the drug scene).
I've seen great people come from horrible families and horrible people come from great families. Just because a person can make babies (even quite a few) doesn't mean they are even a decent parent.
My advice would to be to only look at your part in this(not that you are "doing wrong", WHERE you are and have been for quite awhile) leaving the other people to chose for themselves and put it out of mind "fair" or not. You've been hurt and need a way to find healing in your own life. It sounds like this is going to be a chronic situation that will not change. It may turn into an endless cycle of pain,abuse and false hope over and over and over again. That is a terrible waste of a precious time.

They have groups (coda,al anon etc...) to help people to get past these hard times. My way of coping (my situation is the opposite I have a toxic family of origin) is to get involved with outreach programs for the needy,disaster victims etc... it helps me take my mind off my own personal disasters (that I cannot change) and help where I can. It's a lot more rewarding to help someone get BACK on thier feet(working and being a useful part of society)than watching someone you want to be close to and care about act parasitic. PJ

Popi, Annie, & PG,

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and respond. You are all three full of wisdom and what you are telling me does make sense.

For my family to go behind my back and attend the wedding is just too much for me to bear. It's like you were saying, Annie, it sends the message that she has done nothing wrong. That they approve of the way she is treating me.

Popi, you suggested for me to have a gentle talk with my family, and that is what I should do. However, experience has taught me that we are not allowed to share "feelings" in my family. No one is supposed to "feel" anything. My parents have hurt me over and over in the past. Whenever I would go to them and explain how much I hurt, dad would laugh in my face and tell me that I am crazy. My mother, who is bi-polar, would start a crying jag that last for days. She will scream and wail at the top of her lungs. I end up taking the blame for everything and retreat back to my misery without resolving anything.

I had no concept of unconditional love until I married my husband. This was because in my family, love comes with a price tag. If I did everything perfectly, my parents would make me feel loved (if only for a little while,) however, if I messed up and displeased them they would tell me that I was worthless. Four years ago my mother decided it was time I knew the "truth." She then proceeded to tell me how she got pregnant with my by accident and how my dad didn't want me. She said that they were forced to marry her by his parents because of the pregnancy. As I was growing up and displeased her, my mother would frequently tell me, "If I knew I was pregnant with another one like you, I'd kill it before it was born."

Unfortunately, she almost did that very thing. I was an only child until my brother came along. I was 13 at the time and like me, his birth was unplanned. My dad told mom to get an abortion and she did consider it. It was not a blessed event. It was 9 months of stress, arguments, and pain. Mom has made a point of telling my brother many times that he wasn't wanted. She constantly reminds him that he was almost aborted. He, as a result, is estranged from the family also. He still speaks to me on occasion. But like me, he is filled with hurt. He tells me that it is better to stay away from our parents because they never wanted either one of us to begin with.

It's really funny how I have managed to push most of that toxic stuff out of my mind for so long. It wasn't until this happened with my daughter that it came creeping back in. For years I have tried to pretend that all the bad stuff with my parents didn't happen. I lived in a fantasy for so long. Now, it has slapped me in the face again harder than ever.

It was a roller coaster ride growing up in this type of environment. Guess it's no wonder why I let my daughter treat me like a door mat. It was what I was used to. It feels familiar to me.

Anyway, to answer your question, Popi, no. My daughter did not marry the father of her children. She married another, who just like herself, won't hold a job. He also has a police record and a son that he won't support by a former marriage. Oh, I just heard through the grapevine that she is also EXPECTING AGAIN! SO now there will be another innocent, little life that will soon be sucked into this mess.

Also, Popi, based on the way my parents have always treated me, I can't help but wonder if my dad was intentionally trying to hurt me with that phone call about the wedding. I know it's hard to believe, but I just don't know anymore.

Annie, I am so sorry that your hubby's family is taking the side of your son. I know we shouldn't label it "taking sides," but when you are in this situation, you feel like that's what they are doing. I also understand why you would consider cutting ties with the SIL, I am considering the same for my family. (except my brother, who, by the way, did NOT attend the wedding because he doesn't do family functions anyway) But I guess people don't know what to do sometimes when they are caught in the middle.

PJ, You are so right about refocusing my energies. In spite of everything I still manage to hold a job. I am a teacher by the way. Guess it helps me to help others too.

Thanks so much for listening. You all have helped me in more ways than you know. Sometimes getting someone else's perspective really helps.

Please, let's continue this journey, as horrible as it may be, TOGETHER. Let's continue to post and chat. It gives me something to look forward to.

Take Care

kmttsmom, I'm so sorry for what you went through with your parents. No parents should ever make a child feel that they were not wanted. It's one thing to say it was a surprise, or perhaps it was an accident but the end result was wonderful. I do have to say that it is no wonder that your daughter did walk on you, however I was walked on too and I didn't grow up in that type of atmosphere.

Right now I'd like to be a recluse from most of the family. I'm so disappointed and dis-illussioned. At least you have parents who were less then loving and supportive to begin with, but our family puts on this love everyone attitude, and 'we're all so close.' I don't know how to reconcile with the fact the obvious hypocracy of it all.

There is a wedding in the family next August so I know that a niece will be having a shower and I"m sure my dil will be invited as well. I'm not going which is going to put a huge strain on my relationship with my sil, but she knows how I feel. She could just not invite her since I'm going to be there, but she won't do that. Then I have the problem of the wedding which is going to be small and intimate with immediate family only. Are they going to seat us at the same table as our son? It is too much to think about.

I do wonder if your dad called you after your daughters wedding to rub it in a little bit, because I can't imagine how he wouldn't know how much that would hurt hearing. Still, there are plenty of insensitive people out there, and your parents do sound like they fit that description.

anniebal

Wow, it just amazes me how many women are going through similar painful experiences. I agree, when something like this happens to you-your brain retrieves other bad memories
I also was not invited to my son's wedding. Which was a "fancy" affair, band and all. I hurt so bad that day that I thought my heart would burst.
Then I realized something terrible about my children, they have the ability to be mean. Just mean. I saw pictures of the wedding at my Mother's house and he looked so happy, not a care in the world. AND all the pictures without his mother in them...I cannot image ever being so cruel-even to a total stranger, just can't even get the vision in my head.
My Mother was also abusive to me, from the time I was born until now (whenever she gets the chance). She also shared with me that she wanted to get an abortion, and because her cousin had had one earlier in the year and almost died, that wasn't an option for her then...That does make you feel awful, and of course I felt her ANGER also.
Another Mother who's son and daughter in law were moving extremely far away told me how she handles it: She said: "When they are grown, they are just people, not our children-just people." I throught about that a while and it started making a lot of sense. No longer your's
to love and "expect" love in return.
What really gets me depressed is when I would see (old job) children whom were badly abused and how they couldn't wait to see their mothers. I do really believe that if I jumped through one "fiery ring they would just want more and more. " And I refuse to "walk on broken glass anymore in this lifetime. So, I am now working on who I am and what I really want-it's a new day; every day. We can't change anyone else, but we can change the way we rea

I'm confused!

Our family members do not get how much their behavior enables my son and dil to continue acting the way they do. Heck, if everyone see's them and acts as if nothing is wrong that does send a message that they must be right.

I am so hurt that my brother has had the chance to talk to my son but hasn't. My hubby's family is considering including them for Thanksgiving dinner this year (we are spending it on my side of the family.) I told my sil that I don't want her to include them, that this just enables them to continue this behavior with us.

Why would u be hurt if you don't want family acting like your son is doing nothing wrong?? Wouldn't your brother's actions (not speaking to your son) show him that he's on your side??

My entire family continues to think the world of my children. They went to my son's wedding knowing I wasn't invited. They visit each other-My mother and her husband tell me how great they are! No wonder my children think it's just fine to disown me. But, boy,when one of them needs something-guess who they call-YEA ME! The only time they call otherwise is to ask me noisy questions-so I know they all sit and entertain themselves talking about me.
You know we are all going to have to get strong and start standing up for ourselves by not allowing this behavior-from our children or our families...this has all just gotten too much for me and I am really having some serious issues with depression. So I so understand how you feel, and how much it takes over your whole life.

Khandi - even though I appreciate and respect your response, I really don't understand what you are confused about. I must be missing something. Please clarify?

Straycat -sounds like you and I might be kindred spirits. We have several similarities. So, let me ask you this: did your relationship with the rest of your family members change as a result of them attending the wedding that you were not invited to? I am still in shock that my own parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles could do this to me. I just feel like I had absolutely no say in the matter. (Guess because I didn't) I feel like they "chose" her behavior over my feelings. I am really trying to fight the urge to lash out at them over this. I hope I never see the wedding pictures, that would really put me over the top.

I just want the whole bunch to leave me alone now that it is over. Every time I think about what that day must have been like for my daughter and my family, I become hurt all over again. Oh, and my middle daughter, was the maid-of-honor. It couldn't have been any worse. Right now, I don't even want to see her. (She later told me that she thought I'd come even if I wasn't invited)

I am sick of having so many ill feelings toward so many people. This feeling of betrayal is hurt in its roughest, rawest form.

I am also sick of sitting here with my mouth shut. I feel that I should have the opportunity to be heard. I know that people were wondering where I was on the day of the wedding. I have no idea what she told the guests. I can only imagine what all 200 of them must think of me. Meanwhile, I was sitting her waiting for an invitation and a chance to jump in and be a part of that day.

I thought about writing letters to at least my side of the family explaining the situation, but am afraid that would look childish and/or vindictive. What do some of you think about this?

kmttsmom,
I am so sorry I know how much it hurts. Yes, I saw the pictures...I visited my mother and her husband and they were displayed so I couldn't miss them. Sad to say, but true before I came I had asked not to see them and that is what I got slapped in the face with. That and a video, which she handed me and wanted to know if I didn't want to WATCH IT! There on the cover was my son laughing-having the time of his life, not a care in the world...I died more inside, in fact I hurt so bad I thought my heart might literally explode.
About my "family" I used the "" to mean only in words, not my heart, not in the least anymore. Did it change my relationship with them, yes and no. Yes, because I will no longer be the caregiver, the one who is always there for them, who is the peace maker...no more. One of these "family member is an Aunt who is just 16 years older than me. She had cancer about 10 years ago and she and my mother were on the outs with each other. I drove eight hours one way to see her and help take care of her. My mother not knowing if she would even live, refused to go...I would call back and forth and let her know how she was, this and believe me a lot more, and this is my "Thanks"...So, for me-it would take too much out of my soul, much more than they are worth for me to tell them how much they have hurt me-besides...they know...so I write them off in my heart, and I pray that the next time they call me to rescue them I will say "no." Keep in mind-this includes my mother. Who by the way, gave my son-Power of Attorney-and left everything to him in her will, just him-excluding my other two children-wnating me to jump up and drive and drop my life whenever she needs something. Then (believe this) she got mad when I told her to call my son-he is the one she "put in charge."
BUT, my advice is this; if you think it would make you feel better and help you in any way-tell them all off. Make it clear-and make it loud- make sure when you turn around everyone could hear a pin fall...and when they take a deep breath it makes them dizzy! I say- You think about what YOU need. They need to learn some respect and if you have to yell at them to get it-so be it. They may not respect you when your back is turned but they had better to your face.
Personally, I think we have all been "to nice." In doing so failed to set appropriate boundaries, but "now" is not too late. "NOW" will work for me, and I bet you too.
One thing for sure we just learned from our "families" is -just because they are your family doesn't mean you owe them anything-so now we can "kiss them off" with their own actions-no guilt-none.
Oh, the wedding wasn't the only thing I wasn't invited to...it just adds up for me-
My daughter received her PhD, and asked me "NOT TO ATTEND"..
it just keeps adding up doesn't it? And you know what-it will NEVER, ever stop will it? It just keeps adding up and as it does my heart just keeps breaking into smaller and smaller pieces. I think at times I'd like to move where they couldn't ever find me, then I realize that starts and ends with me...I have that control, and to survive, I'm going to take it! It's the only way I know of to survive this heartache and begin a "new life." and I am sure I will still miss my old life, but I've got to say that every day I spent with my children I enjoyed to the fullest, and those memories can never be taken away.
Keep in mind, you are not alone in this. I am but an e mail away. Please take care of your self and protect your soul and your heart, because I can tell they are very, very good and I know they hurt. So, do something nice, just for yourself today, and if someone asks you why, tell them you're kindred spirit asked you to....

Thank you so much for encouragement, Straycat. After taking a verbal beating from Carla on the other post (about giving grandchildren gifts), I really needed to hear a friendly voice. When someone has walked in our shoes and has the wisdom to share advice, I will accept that. Until then, I don't want them to smother me with their self-righteous blah, blah, blah. I guess to someone on the "outside", we must sound like a spiteful, vengeful, bunch, but they just don't get it, so why waste any time trying to explain it to them. It doesn't matter to them anyway because they are not the ones affected by it. Some people like to prey on those who are already hurting. It's sad, but true.

Anyway, I feel better now having said that. I understand what you mean completely about wanting to run away where family can't find me and start a new life. I think it would give me a sense of power to know that they can't bother me unless I allow them. It would be nice to be the one in control for a change.

Yes, my mother is a user too. She called me in August and chewed me up and down for not being there for her when she had the stomach virus. Meanwhile, I live two states away from her. And she didn't even call to tell me was sick until AFTER it was over. Knowing me, I would have taken a couple of sick days from work, drove over 200, and made sure she got to the doctor to see about her stomach virus because that's the type of person I am. But instead, she waits until she's all better than calls me and chews me out. Like I am supposed to have ESP and know when she's sick.

I flat out told her to stop putting the guilt trip on me because I wasn't accepting any guilt for something I didn't know anything about in the first place. Then she cut me down for moving away from her (no small wonder as to the reason why). She ended the conversation by flying into one of her bi-polar crying jags, told me that she wouldn't bother me anymore, and hung up the phone.

I guess it worked because she hasn't called back since, nor have I called her. I am the type of person, had I been guilty of something, I would be the first to stand up and admit it. But I can't be guilty of something I didn't know about in the first place.

Talk about a "toxic" family. Well, I got one. My husband and I have done so much for my mother, but it never seems to be enough. We bought her a car when hers stopped running. Heck, we STILL pay her car insurance every six months, no strings attached. We even bought her a $899.00 leather recliner she wanted. Yet, she has the gall to call me and chew me out for "not caring enough." So I know what you mean about you being the one they call in a crisis. Sounds like our mothers deserve each other.

Meanwhile, my father is so wrapped in my step-mother and her kids, it is sad. According to him, they can do no wrong. Ironically, her two sons were estranged from her for years before she married my dad.

I did type up a letter entitled "my dear family." I am debating whether or not to send it because as soon as I do, guilt will overtake me.

When I graduated from college, no one came to the ceremony. Not mom, not dad, NO ONE from my family. I was and still am so hurt. I've never moved passed it. I am still holding resentment. Dad said he couldn't come because he had to work and mom said she couldn't find a way here (200 miles away) I know those were just excuses because they really didn't care. Anyway, this was in 2003, and I sat down and wrote each of them a letter telling them how much they hurt me. I mailed them, then got the guilts. I actually called the post office the next day and had them not deliver the letters. So, I never got to express my anger and hurt over that either. That Christmas I didn't go home because I was still hurting and my dad called and told me to "get over it."

I am so afraid of hurting others, that I have learned to "suck it up" and take whatever is dished out to me.

Thanks again, straycat for giving me the strength and courage to face another day.

kmttsmom

Khandi - even though I appreciate and respect your response, I really don't understand what you are confused about. I must be missing something. Please clarify?

Sorry, that question was meant for Anniebal.

I did type up a letter entitled "my dear family." I am debating whether or not to send it because as soon as I do, guilt will overtake me.

This to me sounds as if you don't feel you have a right to your emotions. You do. Of course you feel hurt that your daughter had a wedding and didn't invite you, and of course you feel betrayed that the rest of the family would attend and be oblivious to how you felt.

Here's the thing though: you need to first be clear with yourself that you're responsible for how you feel, and then be clear to others that your feelings matter. And you need to do this from a place of strength, not of victimhood.

Here's an idea for your letter:

Dear Family,
You must have been in an awkward position when DD invited you to her wedding, knowing that I wasn't invited. You might have felt uncomfortable talking about it with me ahead of time. And now that the wedding's over, you probably don't realize how I feel. I've made a mistake by not telling you how I feel, and I want to correct that now. I'm not upset that you went to DD's wedding, but I'm upset that by going, you've saying that how she's behaved towards me is OK. It's not. I feel (insert how you feel here). But we're still family and I still love you. I love DD and will work towards improving my relationship with her.

Based on what you've said about your family history, you can't expect very much understanding. You know this. What will the best case response be from them to a letter from you? What will the worst case be? What will help you to move on? I'm guessing some apology or at least a sign of awareness from them will help. What if you don't get this? What can you do to move past this? Maybe simply writing your thoughts on this board will be enough, or talking to a friend?

My best to you.

khandi, when I stated that I am hurt my brother had the chance to talk to my son but didn't I meant that he didn't broach the subject of what my son has done. My bro went out to dinner with my son and dil and never said boo about what was happening between me and my son (his nephew.) If he isn't going to at least broach the subject, then don't see my son at all because that just makes my son all the more self righteous. Does this explain better?

I want my family letting my son know that they don't approve of his behavior, but instead they just continue enabling him.

Anna - you are right, I don't feel that I have a right to my emotions. I was taught to "suck it up" and not to appear weak. We were never allowed to "feel" anything with my parents. So, when I do have a "feeling" towards something that involves them, I feel guilty about it. The worst case scenario for sending the letters would be that they would cut me off. I mean, they ain't much, but they are the cards I was dealt 40 years ago. Then, part of me feels like this is "my" problem and to not involve them. I am so confused right now. One minute I am enraged, the next I pity them.

Annie - You are right on the money about your family's approval of how your son treats you. And let's face it, that is what they are doing by avoiding the subject with him.

What happened to the days when you respected your parents, grandparents, etc... no matter what. There was no "cutting people off." I don't know what has happened to an entire generation of kids who have this sense on entitlement. I keep going back and asking myself, "what did I do wrong?" I must have failed somehow for her to turn out like she did.

What's her face, (Carla) was talking about "pride prevents happiness" or some kind of crap like that. Well, were does your pride lie, when your child cusses in your face, tells you that she hates every being of you, calls you a "wretched woman" and your womb "vile?" No matter what you do or say, you are always wrong. My daughter told me, that when my other children realize how horrible of a mother I am, to let her know and they will all have a big party. Now, tell me, how can a person possibly hold onto any sense of pride or self-respect after being told this by the very person they carried in their own body 9 months?

Believe me, any shred of pride, self-respect, and dignity that I had disappeared the day my daughter said these horrible things to me. It's not pride that makes us and keeps us feeling this way, it is hurt, pain, and ridicule.

kmttsmom:
You expressed my sentiments perfectly! In fact, sorry to say I have the same same of Mother and Stepfather (my) as your parents. Thank goodness my natural Father is a Jewel.
I guess that's what we have to do...find the good things in our life and not look back...(oh, how I'd like to be able to do that!)...

Well, it is now Thursday. I have spent the whole week with a turmoil of emotions. I have went from being enraged, to being just mad, to being sad, and now it's full-blown depression.

Do some of you find that these types of feelings run in cycles? Do these feelings deaden over time? Or does this misery continue to move full circle?

I have been so shaky and irritable the past few days. I am finding it hard to focus on just one thing at a time.(it's not PMS) I was just wondering if this is all just part of some twisted, miserable cycle that results from estrangement.

It is...and you know a lot of times we really have little control over the things that set our pain in full blown motion...like for me it's looking up with a mother and her son or daughter and a grandchild. Or seeing a grandparent holding and loving the child...or someone experiencing a memory I hadn't even thought of in a while. You know the other day I was in a Target and a child hollered out; "Mom!" and I automatically turned thinking they wanted me...
I do think it helps us to write and confide in others who understand our pain...it gets it out rather than hold the pain inside, where I know causes it to come out in inappropriate ways and certainly not to whom should be sharing it. I was raised not to share or talk about my feelings, in fact my mother's favorite and only response was .\, "to straighten up." All that ever got me was colitis...and not healthy psychologically either. So., I do think because we are here and we are sharing with people who really understand (and I'll alway say, if you haven't gone through this one-you can't understand) no matter WHO states differently....sometimes you DO "have to be there."
I think kmttsmom that the pain continues but less consuming as you build strength and form other relationships and carry on...nothing is ever going to be able to replace that which we miss...but I do think that in these cycles we do have to remember-our children are strong and not dependent on us, which is what we hoped for, they are not seeking our approval, which means they are secure, and in all our pain we still have love-no matter what happens we have that never ending all consuming love for our children...just as we always knew we did. But now, we have proof...and we can rejoice that even though no one is perfect...We were and in our love-still are very good mothers.

kmttsmom, I'm sorry to read of your emotional turmoil. Those emotions do come and go and as straycat stated almost anything can trigger an episode. I am much stronger now than I was a year ago, so things do improve. I still have my very bad days but there are far less of them. Much of the anger I had has gone and that was/is a huge part of the difficulty. I needed to let go of the anger and realize that my son felt that he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Being inexperienced, immature and naive lead him to believe he needed to evict us from his life since his wife convinced him of what terrible people we are. I know he didn't and doesn't know how to handle her and all I can hope is that one day he will learn. It doesn't have to be either or, it can be both.

I agree that the hurtful things our kids have said to us are quite a mountain to get over, yet I believe that deep down inside they do love us. I think their anger (for whatever reason and probably not justified to this degree,) is so strong that no other feelings can come out.

I've often thought and still do that our children expect us to make things better just as we did when they were babies. I feel that my son wanted us to leap through hoops and jump hurdles in order to make this relationship work out between his wife and us, and even thou we did just that, it wasn't enough. His wife has an insatiable appetite for drama that needs to be tamed by my son being assertive, time will tell if that ever happens.

anniebal

Straycat & Annie,

I know it will get better. We are mothers not miracle workers. Maybe that is the problem. Annie may had hit the nail on the head when she said, "I've often thought and still do that our children expect us to make things better just as we did when they were babies." Maybe when they realize that we can't always fix things for them, they become angry at us and lash out the only way they know how? It kinda makes sense in my case anyway.

It just sneaks up on me in the most unexpected places/times. Like yesterday in Walmart. I was walking along with my cart and stopped in the Halloween aisle. Along came a set of grandparents with their two little granddaughters. They were laughing and checking out the costumes. The littlest one was in the cart and her grandpa showed her a scary mask. She giggled with delight and said, "grandpa tried to scare me."
They all laughed, me included. Then it hit me that I don't have/probably never will have those moments with my two grandchildren. I almost broke down right there in the store. As the tears flowed, I quickly moved away from the aisle and thought of the things I needed on my grocery list.

You know? It's pretty bad when a trip to Walmart can bring Seeing little ones with their grandparents is just way to painful for me still.

I know that out there somewhere is a young lady who would give anything to have a loving mother. It's really a shame that our children turn their backs on us, while there are others out there who are searching for what we can offer. It just doesn't make sense.

We are good people. If we were half as bad as our children say we are, we wouldn't be on this board in the first place, right? We would be going on with our lives without giving them a second thought. The fact that we are hurting proves that we are not cold, heartless, people. We do have feelings, and these feelings that allow us to hurt, also give us the capacity to love.

Hugs,
Kmttsmom

Kmttsmom,

"I figured she'd call and we'd make up, but that call never came."

Have you considered calling her? Telling her that you love her and miss her and are sorry for the distance between you? Sometimes it's hard to make the first move.

kmttsmom, your description of your trip to walmart hits home with me as well. About six months ago I was pulling into a local grocery store parking lot when I saw two people walking from the store to the lot. It looked so much like my son that I had to keep watching to be sure it wasn't him. It made me so sad inside to think that we live so close and yet we are so far away. The wasted time is a crime, and can never be made up. Just what's the point of it all.

Of all the things my parents did to annoy or anger me growing up and into married life, I could never even imagine having taken a step as my son has done. What happen to love, respect and forgiveness?

anniebal

Silver,

1) No, she told me to never contact her again.

2) I don't even have her phone number. She changed it and told the family that I am not allowed to know it. So they won't give it to me.

3) And before you ask, I don't have her address either.

It isn't as simple as it sounds. I wish a phone call could take care of it, but it goes way beyond that.

Kmttsmom

kmttsmom,
Wow- you are so right and way beyond that is a good way to describe it. It's like we have pain we can't even explain, and no one can begin to feel it unless they experience it. Then it may also leave some mothers out because I know everyone doesn't feel as deeply for their children as we do. My daughter has friends that their mothers required to be invited to dinner. When she turned 16 she had to work to pay for her own food, toiletries, soap, you name it...my cabinets got cleaned out pretty often when she got out of things she needed. She lived at our home more than she did her own. AND guess what!!! They are really "close" now and she has all kinds of respect and love for her mother.
It makes me physically nauseous when I think about it.
Just goes right to the middle of my heart and drills away...What in the world is wrong?

I just want to say that I am so glad I found some of you on this board. Your have been a source of strength and inspiration for me to keep going. It is a shame that others like to come in here and feed off of our pain, but that is the way the world works sometimes.

Anyway, to those who have shown me nothing but love, understanding, and acceptance, I am deeply in your debt. Once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

kmttsmom

I agree! Thank you for all of the support-"Supporters"
You know I remember another "person" who cam here to "trash"...wonder if they are all the one and same-???
Who cares-just ignore those who "don't know what they are talking about" -after all-they are probably one of the spoiled brats who caused someone pain in the first place.

Well put, Straycat. It seems from the posts over on the other board, that maybe there are a couple of people who are "on the other side of the fence" i.e. children estranged (by choice) from their own parents. If that is the case, then I guess they are just as bitter about their situation as we are hurt about ours. And they certainly have that right. I might be wrong, but that is the impression I got.

I didn't mean to fly off the handle, it's just that when any animal is in pain, it will lash out at anyone who appears to be a threat. I was simply lashing out at those, who in my opinion, were judging and condemning me as a parent.

I am hard enough of myself these days and I certainly don't need someone else making me second guess myself. My parenting skills are in question enough (with myself) as it is.

I do apologize if I offended anyone. I'm just tired of feeling like I have to constantly defend my position.

I do understand that everyone has a right to their opinion and I respect that. I just had to wonder if some people were trying to get a reaction out of others by posting some of the things they did. And if that was the goal, then I fell right into the trap.

Anyway, I just want to move on. Move past this. I came to this board to chat with other women who are going through the same pain that I am feeling. I came here seeking friendship, consolation, and acceptance. I didn't come here to be a part of verbal brawls about who is right and who is wrong. I really don't have time for that. Who does?

Once again, I sincerely apologize to anyone I might have offended. This includes you, Silver. From now on, if someone posts something that I don't agree with, I will simply shut off the computer and wait until I can come up with a positive, constructive response. I have to admit that I could have/should have taken a more constructive approach to this situation.

This whole estrangement thing is new to me and I am still wearing my emotions on my sleeve until I learn how to deal with it. This is not an excuse for my behavior, but it is an explanation.

Straycat, I think you are wonderful. I feel like I have known you for years. Thank you for being so accepting of me, a stranger, and for standing by me when I need you.

Hugs,
kmttsmom

Hi Kmttsmom,
Thank you for being kind. I'm really not trying to get a reaction or hurt anyone and I think I've stated it over and over, but it bears repeating. :)

I'm hurt too, and confused at how my estrangement got to the point it did. Years and years of misunderstanding, letting things go when they really should have been talked out then, not feeling like I could say anything because it would be taken the wrong way. So I'm just trying to understand it from a mother's point of view. And it seems like a lot of mothers are defensive (that's ok, they have a right to be, but then they take it as I'm attacking) and words like "spoiled brat" come into the picture. I'm not, nor was I ever, a spoiled brat. I was raised one of the least spoiled people you would ever meet. No electricity, no television, catchment water, no neighbors. No Christmas tree, very few presents for my birthday. My mother never bought me a car, paid for insurance, college, rent, bills, etc. I had to give away my toys to more needy kids time and again. We recycled everything. I moved out at 14 to live with my dad because of her emotional abuse, and I lived pretty much on my own because he had to work 150 miles away and would be gone for days at a time. I walked to school a few miles away and walked home, did my homework, made myself dinner, and went to bed. And I forgave her in high school. I was able to put it all behind me and move forward. And I included her in my daughter's birth. And when she needed a place to live, I let her move in with me. And then I realized she was an energy vampire. She literally sucked me dry, blamed me for everything, took my friends and started to turn my daughter against me. And she walked all over me. Time and again.

So, my defenses go up too, when mothers just say that kids just need to respect their parents, and "get over it".

It's a very emotionally charged situation. I didn't come on here for support, I came on here to learn what others think. So I think part of the conflict is our approach to what we expect from this board.

I'm shocked at being told to go away, that my opinion is not wanted or needed or valued because I don't agree and I'm asking questions. It seems it's either one way or the highway. And when I apply this to what women here are saying about their damaged relationships the correlation seems too blatant to ignore.

I don't think anyone here is a "Bad Mother". The fact that people are even talking about it indicates that they are truly trying to be good people. I'm sure everyone on here has their good and bad moments, and it can be hard to judge emotion when it's in writing, without any facial gestures or other non-verbal clues.

I guess this isn't the place for me to be asking my questions because it is seen as an attack, and I felt just terrible the past few days, because I feel bad that people are taking my words that way, and now I feel attacked too.

Thank you again, for your very clear, from the heart post. I do wish you the best in your situation. No one should have to feel like this.

~Silver

Kmttsmom,
You are more than welcome! I am just sorry this is where we had to come to get to know each other....I feel the same way about you, you know.

Silver, I do apologize. It's just very hard when you are hurting the way we are to hear someone suggest that it's our fault, when we have tried and tried and tried and our hearts are literally bleeding...
No, it doesn't sound like you are a spoiled brat, not at all. In fact, I can't help but wish you'd lived close to me...you would not have gone without. I took in so many of my children's friends, time and time again. In fact some of the teenagers I ended up trying to help I met at some of my oldest son's track meets. I won't go into that, but I will say I loved them all.
Hopefully we understand each other better now. I know I do.

Silversword, I ,for one, enjoy your posts. You ask questions to make people "think". Sometimes, an objective opinion/suggestion is what is needed.

Why some people get so defensive puzzles me at times. It's only a "discussion", not an "attack".

So sorry Kmttsmom to hear about your situation. Your father is a weak and cowardly man. There are three parties involved in abuse, the perpetrator, the victim and the bystanders and in this case you father, mom, etc were the bystanders.

What is the moral role of uninvolved bystanders and why do they believe if they stay uninvolved they have no responsibility. Yet, the LACK of response by bystanders is a crucial factor in the promotion of cruelty because their inaction does have a causal role. Silence gives consent. Daughter may well have changed her actions had other family members stood up to her deliberate abuse of you.

Your father and your entire family should hang their heads in shame. While they likely want to hold on to the belief that they were minding their own business, what they were actually doing was encouraging your daugther. People need to take a stand against this kind of cruelty. It is the only way to stop it.

I also agree write a letter to the whole family about your feelings and their abhorent lack of empathy. They aren't taking it very seriously it appears to me.

Khandi, thank you for taking my words as I intended, which was to question and learn from others going through similar situations. It's understandable that all will not always agree and for those stuck in their personal dramas and their "creation story" it would be very difficult to consider an alternative way of looking at things.

I am not looking for bosom buddies on this forum. But I never in my wildest imagination believed people (adults! mothers!) would go to the lengths they have to name-call, insult, and make insinuations about me for stating my opinion as neutrally and kindly as I could on a public forum. It has opened my eyes to human nature.

Silver,

We have apologized. There is nothing more to say or do except, cut our losses and move forward.

I never once said or thought you were a spoiled brat. I simply implied that you, as a estranged child, were on the other side of the fence. Because you are in this situation, maybe you can give me some insight on how my daughter sees things. Heck, you may even be able to come up suggestions to make things better. Who knows?

I am so sorry to hear about your situation with your mother. I am new to this board, and I had no idea about your background. But those of us here (mothers) were good to our children. My child never went without anything she needed or wanted. Because I suffered so much emotional abuse from my own parents, I was determined that my children would never go through that. I was always there for my daughter. Maybe I tried too hard and in the process she felt like I was smothering her? I have to admit that I do tend be a bit controlling. I am take charge person, it's just my personality. However, as my daughter got older, she resented my "advice."

I wasn't allowed to tell her anything. No matter what I would tell her, she would do the opposite anyway.

Anyway, I really hope we can all move past this and continue posting on this board.

I think if we start listening to one another, we can learn a lot.

Regards,
kmttsmom