Our 8-year-old lab/shepherd mix began peeing very frequently and the vet found out she was developing bladder crystals and irritation that caused her pain.

She had also looked fine, like your dog, but she wasn't.

We followed the vet's advice and switched her to C/D food, which cleared up her urination problems.

Please take your dog to the vet, just to give a urine sample, and see what they tell you.

Why put her down when a simple diet change may be all she needs?

Try cleaning the kennel with one of the enzymatic cleaners for urine- that should help with the smell.
Is there someone you could pay a few bucks to come by and let her out during the day to romp in the yard and do her business?
She should have just enough room in her kennel to stand and lay down. If it is bigger than that try putting something in there to minimize her space-like a cardboard box.She is NOT doing this to get back at you for leaving her- dogs do not think that way. It is possible at her age that she simply cannot hold it for as long as she is in there.

WE've cleaned her kennel with the enxymatic stuff, helps the smell, and we have to do it daily almost. Can't have anyone else come take her out, she won't let them. Some days she can literally be in her kennel for an hour and make a mess in it, others she can be in for hours, and no mess. It is only big enough for her to turn around. SHe doesn't care if she lays in the feeces or urine or not. I could understand the feeces when she got scared from a storm, that seemed to be more of her gland emptying, and boy did that smell. I think I will have to take her to t he vet to check her urine, she's had one bladder infection a few years ago, but it could be other problems. The urine doesn't bother me as much as the intense odor it has (WAY more intense than just regular urine), and the pooping in the kennel.

Vickey-MN

Foul-smelling urine is not normal, and it's not her fault, so there is no reason to have her killed because of it. She needs to go to the vet as soon as possible.

If you can leash walk your dog, especially older dogs they need the movement in their joints or they start stiffening up, that way she will not longer be going to do her business in the kennel, so that will be taken care of. Next - take her to the vet, if she does have crystals they can be painful and I dont know about the rules in your house but in my house the first rule is "no suffering", the secoend is "have fun" - I digress.
Leash walking your dog to assist it in doing its business is also going to give you information about your dogs health, you can tell if she is straining to go or not. If you think you are getting to upset about this, take the dgo back to where you go it, it does not deserve to be put down as a result of the problems you are facing. Hope all is okay

Older animals often need to relieve themselves more often. As mazer mentioned it's possible she's getting arthritic and she may be getting uncomfortable staying in one spot.
Is it possible to have a dog door in your home, or leave her at a daycare a few days a week?

A strong odor to the urine is not a good sign. Get her to the vet ASAP.

If you're frustrated with dealing with the urine & poop.........imagine how she feels.

I find your story very sad, and disturbing.

First of all, your dog should not have been crated all of these years. Crating should be considered a TEMPORARY situation for training purposes ONLY, usually for no more than A YEAR unless there are behavior issues. Even with other issues, a year would be pushing the very limit.

Aside from this, your dog could be seriously ill. This awful situation is not the fault of your dog's, it's YOURS for allowing this to continue and putting her in this degrading situation to begin with. I have three large dogs that have the run of my orderly house. None cause problems, even when I'm gone.

PLEASE don't scold me for being harsh. You might love your dog dearly, but this is not the issue here. The issue is your responsibility as a dog owner.

This is just the way I see it, like it or not. Somewhere along the line you have seriously missed how to deal with your dog properly, and now you are paying the price.

SG

I did a quick google search and found that foul smelling urine is usually caused by bacteria. A bladder infection can cause swelling and discomfort which could lead your dog to feel as though she needs to poop to relieve the pressure. I can't believe you've ignored this for nine months and are now considering putting her down without a check-up. Please take her to the vet for treatment instead. Bladder infections are not usually difficult or expensive to treat.

She also needs to go out more often. Unless she's vicious, you should be able to introduce her to someone who could walk her during the day.

When you adopt a dog, you should be prepared to care for it through all its life stages and issues. Like spiritual gardener, your post makes me troubled. You have an older dog with an anxiety order being kept in a cage all day and no one can get near it to walk it but you? It is eliminating foul smelling urine and then forced to sit it in during the day? You are considering killing it for these reasons? The poor dog! Your issues are obvious and need immediate addressing. If you can't handle the dog's needs, please consider having someone else adopt it.

Vickey, I know your main reason for posting here is that, as you said, you do not want to put this dog down. I admire you for adopting a rescue dog and caring for it.

However, the wording of your second sentence is unclear. Do you mean that, despite anxiety problems, your dog has been going into her crate nicely for the past 9 months, but just lately has started to pee in it? That's how I understood the sentence.

Spiritual Gardener took your explanation to mean that you have crated the dog for 12 years and it has been peeing in the crate for 9 months. I thought you adopted a dog from rescue a year or so ago, and it is now about 12 years old.

Which is correct (or are we both incorrect)?

If there is a kidney problem, the pH can go high and the urine can smell like ammonia. Is that the bad odor? Or, as deb said, it could smell if there is a bacterial infection.

I was glad to read that you will take her to the vet to check her urine -- that is the only way be sure.

The dog needs to be checked by a vet to rule out medical issues.

I will take exception to the statement that crates are temporary situations to be used for no more than a year. My dogs are crated 100% of the time I, or another family member, am not home. I've followed this rule for 15 years, every since I had a 9 yr old dog with no history of separation anxiety or storm phobia go through a closed 2nd story window during a thunderstorm (she lived but broke both front legs). I credit this policy with saving my dogs during a house fire as the firemen were able to quickly and safely remove the dogs from the burning building.

As already stated a quick check in with the vet is due. Just to rule out that concern. The strong smell to the urine does not sound right at all.

Not to stir up too much over the crate issue, but there are grounds to keep an anxious dog crated or confined. One, it stops them from the possibility of hurt themselves if their anxiety spikes. Two, if properly crate trained, a crate can be a safe, secure place to be and help keep anxious dogs remain calm.

Dogs with 'working' personalities like GSD can have a hard time 'shutting off'. They also bond extremely strongly, all of which can translate into anxiety. The crate can translate into being 'off duty'.

I've seen it in GSD rescue and more specifically with my mother's extremely high strung GSD. Left alone (meaning her not home -the presence of other humans don't count!), he patrols the house obsessively, opening doors, checking windows and cupboards. He will work himself into an absolute frenzy and go non-stop until her return. However, if crated he relaxes and sleeps while she is away.

It's a UTI, and sores on her vulva (I never looked, wouldn't have guessed that). So she's on meds and re-check in 10-14 days.

As far as crating her durring the day, it is necessary for her own safety. She'll get into the garbage, and her system is delecate, so she'll puke up whatever she eats; or she'll accidentally lock herself in a room, then LITERALLY chew a door to bits trying to get out--breaking teeth in the process. If I try to keep her in a room with a baby gate, she'll try to climb it. She is safest in the crate.

To answer a few more questions. Dog is about 12 or so years old. We've had her for 9 years. She's been crated when we're gone for many years due to her anxiety. She's had the foul smelling urine on and off for about 9 months. Yes she should have gone in sooner, it was an issue for DH that kept me from taking her in and I feel guilty enough. That's in the past now as she went in tonight!

Vickey-MN

Good news, Vickey, thanks for letting us know about what the vet said. It looks like both you and she will be feeling better soon! :-)

I am happy you resolved the issue and she has good vet care now. I think we all want the best for our companions, but going about it sometimes is different and sometimes maybe not in the best interest of the animal, but we all do the best we can.

Vickey, I understand "isues" with "DH" Mine did not like my dogs (that came with me when we married) I had to put my girl down last week, she was old and I dont think I would have put her through sugery anyway, but I knew if I did "DH' woud have really raised a stink. Glad yours is stil with you!

Re: crates. As I posted on another thread, my rescue puppy came with a crate. The previous owner bought it and had the puppy since he was four months old. She gave it up to the rescue group about a month ago. I like that he's safe there and he goes in w/o a fuss. Rescue lady said never put anything in the crate except something soft to lay on and real hard bone that can't splinter. You can stuff the bone w/ p-nut butter or cheese whiz..(He came w/ his own can) but no water or other food.This dog was in over last night but out all day till 20 minutes ago. At the foster place, he was in 6 hours at a time but she had many other dogs.

Re: Crates.

I can't tell you how many people I have dealt with who simply do not know the proper way to use a crate. This has led so many to believe that they are torture, or, that they should be used for the life of the dog. Both attitudes are completely wrong, wrong, wrong.

Crates should only be considered a temporary training tool, and the length of time using them depends on how fast the dog matures and progresses with positive behaviors. IF there are behavior issues that do not permit the dog to be weaned away from the crate, these issues simply MUST be dealt with PROPERLY.

Not dealing with negative behavior issues properly is a disservice to the dog. Humans should realize it is their complete responsibility to deal with this type of thing before they get a dog.

Except in extreme, rare cases, crates may be needed for a longer period of time. But this does not mean that the dog should be crated 100% of the time for the rest of it's life when left alone. If there is an extreme behavior problem, it needs to be fixed, not contained in a crate.

SG

Spiritual Gardner,
Are you a trainer? I must say that your attitude surprises me. Every trainer and competition person I know ( and I know LOTS)crates their dogs when not home. I certainly crate mine 100% when I'm not home. These are dogs that are titled or with 1-2 legs left toward titles, defintiely not dogs with extreme behavior problems.

Yes, I am a trainer. Just because other trainers and competition persons crate 100% of the time when they are not home does not make it right.

This is one reason why there is so much confusion about this issue. Lots of people have HUGE amounts of problems with their dogs and see the crating process as cruel and inhumane. They hear stories like this, and read things that to them seem cruel. They just cannot get it through their head that the PROPER crating process is a TEMPORARY one, not one that is forever. BUT the way they think is almost impossible to change, all they see is a cage with no way for the dog to get out. Sadly and inevitably lots of dogs wind up injured or worse because of this.

I know of competition dogs who are wonderful creatures, but they know almost NOTHING about being a GOOD dog. The humans in charge of them have the crate misconseption and simply refuse to teach them even basic commands, resulting in severe damage taking place in the house.

The ultimate goal for the dog should be: Crate free when READY. If the dog is not ready, or, if there are issues that prevent weaning away from the crate, then the issues need to be corrected and dealt with that will bring the dog, and the humans in charge, to the ultimate goal.

SG

I'm another one who's surprised that someone purporting to be a trainer would make such blanket comments about crates and even about competition dogs. I can assure you that my OTCH dog is not a good dog, but a great dog. However, she is a dog. A dog that I've put a tremendous amount of time, effort and money into and I won't be taking chances with her life by leaving her to her own devices when I'm not home.
Training is well and good but even the most well-trained dog can and has gotten into trouble. There's a case where a K-9, a 9 year veteran of the force, went after a squirrel in a parking garage and fell to his death. The dog was certainly trained to a degree far beyond any companion dog. An acqaintance's 12 year old dog, well beyond the puppy chewing stage and a dog who had free range of the house for years, ingested a sock. He died from surgical complications, but the death could have been prevented by crating.
In my long history with dogs, I know of only one dog injured while crated. This was a dog with extreme separation anxiety and she broke 2 teeth on a wire crate with the owners were away. Of course, she also chewed through a cement block wall, broke several windows, chewed through door frames, ripped up flooring, etc. Training and behavior modification would have been completely ineffective by themselves and a military -style crate of aluminum sheeting and some doggy Prozac eventually fixed the problem. I know of many more dogs who became severely ill or died because owners relaxed their vigilance and decided that crates were cruel and that the dog should have free-range of the house or, even worse, the yard. Anything can happen and, with a dog, it usually will.

I personally only use crates as a training tool... but I have no problem with someone crating a dog that has the potential to hurt himself if left unattended in a house.

A dog with severe anxiety probably will always need to be crated. Rescue dogs especially may have this problem. It is extremely difficult to deal with and I have the highest admiration for anyone who takes in a dog with separation anxiety.

Not all problems can be solved and in that case, it doesn't make the person a bad owner. I would rather see a dog crated and safe, and in a loving home, than allowed to run free, become destructive and then returned to the shelter. I see it happen all the time.

Dogs who go easily into their crates obviously like being there. If the dog had to be forced in, then I would see it as a problem.

Vicki I'm glad your vet found the problem. I hope your dog is feeling better very quickly. Thanks for sharing your story.
Sher

Forthedogs, you are completely missing my point.

If you or anyone cannot trust your dog to be left alone, then something has been missed in the training department. When you crate your dog 100% of the time to keep it out of trouble when you are away, you have not solved the problem, you have contained it. Your type of thinking does nothing to alter the misconceptions about crating.

Even with all of my experience, I rescued a mutt 2.5 years ago at four months. I had no way of knowing until I got involved with her training that she was severely traumatized before I came along. I spent TWO YEARS making corrections in the most minute way, building on extremely small successes and weaning her from her crate to get her where she is today (not all the way there but close). Typical training techniques simply did not apply here.

I have had dogs for about 18 years, I now have three large dogs, crate trained, but away from it. They all have complete run of the house at all times. I fully trust, let me repeat that, FULLY TRUST that they will not destroy my tidy house, or get into trouble when I am away. The reason I have this trust is because I have spent the time with all of them during the crating process and made the necessary corrections.

To me, crating unnecessarily is a failure of the human in charge to do things properly. You can say anything you want about why 100% crating is being done to justify it, you can also say numerous things about other issues such as war to make a justification, but this does not make it right.

SG

"you can also say numerous things about other issues such as war"
Where was anything like that said? I read forthedogs replies several times and didn't see that reference.
I think your only point is that you are a "trainer" and therefore you know everything there is to know and every way to solve a problem and nobody else can have an opinion or thought of their own that might make sense! Seems like your dogs are so well behaved,why would they ever need a crate!

O.K. Lets try it again. I am finding this interesting, because, I am currently dealing with three clients who have pups. They are all going through the crating process as I suggested. When I start with a new client, and pups need the crate, I am VERY specific that the process is only temporary, and should/will never be considered a permanent thing. I am also very specific, that when the dog is NOT CRATED, "IT SIMPLY MUST BE SUPERVISED, EVERY SECOND, WITH A LEASH ON". This of course is a big thing.

Supervising a young pup every second is lots of work, and most people just don't do it. They supervise most of the time, but not every second. When I inquire about how things are going, and they say the dog had an accident, I always ask about the supervision which get's their attention.

With this supervision, comes correction. When you are constantly supervising a dog and it get's into mischief, you can easily make a correction. In general, the younger the dog, the easier the correction. This process could very well take 9 months to a year or more, depending on how the dog matures. If you have an older dog that has issues, you simply treat it like a pup.

Chewing for instance is a major issue with pups and some dogs in general. When you catch the dog chewing on something like your wonderful antique table, you scold it and give it something you want it to chew on, then give tons of praise. This may need to be repeated 1000 times, but eventually, the dog will "get it" and chew on what is permissible.

This type of supervision and correction allows humans in charge to see potential problems before they get severe, and make the correction. Dogs that have negative issues, simply have not been dealt with properly in the crating/correction process.

IF there are extreme issues that the dog has, such as anxiety, potty problems, chewing, teething, etc. EVERY EFFORT should be made to deal with it. Lots of times this means backing up and starting completely over, lots of times it may mean that the dogs and humans need extra help. Either way, no matter what the dog's problem, it is the duty of the human, as a dog owner, to make this correction, no matter what it takes. This will get the dog and humans to the ultimate goal of crate weaning.

There are of course extreme cases, I have seen a few, but these are relatively rare. Even with extremes, some unsupervised freedom should try to be an ultimate goal.

My dogs are all very well behaved. I rescued them all when they were pups. My problem child was one of my biggest challenges. I had to completely alter typical ways of training to help her. This was an extreme case, it took me two years (I kept track).

As for my reference to war. What I was trying to say, was you can say lots of things about all sorts of issues. Lots has been said about other trainers and competition people crating 100% of the time when they are away, to me this means that it is being said to justify it. Lots can be said about going to war (or for that matter, if you talk to some people about dog fighting they think it's right), but that does not justify and make it right.

SG

We have had nine dogs as part of our family over the last 49 years. Most came here as puppies but some were adults. As new arrivals they were watched and learned our routine. They were leashed when learning to walk with a leash and generally that was done within 3 days.

I purchased my first puppy crate five years ago. NOT for any dog! It was to house a ring-billed gull that was recovering after being hit by a car.

We have never crated any of our dogs. They have the run of the house because we DID teach them and they know the rules and we trust them. They can eat, drink, play with toys or the cats, sleep .... whatever ... if we are home or not.

As SG stated ... it does take some extra effort but, at least for us, it is well worth it. I'm not a trainer either. Just a small animal and exotics vet who can see reasons for both scenarios. I opt for the cage free lifestyle for our doggies.

I have never used a crate until I got my current adult rescue dog, a Dachshund, 5 years ago and I have had dogs all my life (50+ years). And I only use a crate because that was how she was trained and it is the place she goes to sleep at night. She is never crated during the day but has free run of the house. I have never had any problem with her or her doing damage to the house. I really believe it is a matter of training.

Have you ever watched or read the Dog Whisper? You could have worked out her getting into the garbage, chewing a door and other destructive behaviors. One thing he would say is a big problem is she is not getting enough exercise. Can you imagine being locked into a space no bigger then your body all day? That must feel like prison. No wonder she has anxiety and other problems. I feel sorry for a dog that has been crated all day for 9 years. What kind of life is that?

And I can't believe the urine problem went on for 9 months before taking her to the vet. What kind of person is your DH that he wouldn't let you take your dog in for medical treatment when it was obvious she was ill. I don't mean to sound harsh but that sounds really strange and borderline abuse. I am sorry but I have to ask, why do you have a dog if you don't spend time with her and keep her locked up all day? And when you don't get the proper medical care for her? I don't mean to be judgemental but I honestly don't understand it.

Vickey -- I am happy to hear that you took your dog in and got a diagnosis and medication.

I hope she improves right away, and that your husband continues to be supportive in prioritizing your dog's health in the future.

I know you did not intend to discuss the crate thing, but do you mean that you crate the dog from about 7 in the morning until 6 at night? (while you are at work). You let it out for awhile then crate it at night?

Someone else said that they know people who compete with their dogs, and keep them in crates?

I don't understand any of this. I agree with SG. You don't have to be a trainer to know that the dogs don't belong in a cage. If the trash is an issue, you put it up high or in the bathroom. There are all types of structures you can create for pennies so that the dog can roam .

I think it is sad for the dog to be caged up all the time. If there are trainers who suggest that, I would like for someone to post the names.

You know I've read the OP's statements several times and never did she say how long the dog was crated. I've gone on record as stating that I crate my dogs and i will continue to crate my dogs when I am not available to supervise them. However, 10-13 hours is entirely too long. I know many trainers and many competitors at top levels and none suggest caging up a dog all the time. The dogs I'm involved with come from field lines and positively define high energy. They would very quicly go competely bonkers if not given an appropriate outlet for their energy. If I am to be gone more than 4 hours, I make arrangements for a responsible party to take care of the dogs. Having seen personally or heard of too many "accidents" with dogs who had been completely "trustworthy" in the past, I feel it is in the best interests of the dogs to safely confine them when I am not home. I do not believe in doggy doors either and I will not come home to a dead dog or a dog in need of immediate surgery because of my own pride in my training techniques.

Perhaps if it were not the hot button issue of crating, this philosophy wouldn't be under attack? For example, I train my dogs not to counter-surf. I can prepare dinner and know that the 12 course dinner I'm preparing will not disappear behind my back. I expect to still see Tom Turkey on the counter if I leave the room to answer the phone. Tom had best be unmolested when I'm done showering. However, I'm not silly enough to insist that a turkey left alone on the counter for 4 hours would just get up and walk away on its own while 4 loyal dogs lay innocently with heads resting on crossed paws. I trust my training, but dogs are dogs. They are animals and to them, 5 minutes of joyfully devouring a turkey is worth a punctured esophagus. I cannot reason with them after the fact anymore than I could reason with a 3 year old. I didn't leave my 3 year old children home alone either and no matter how much we want to think that dogs are children, they don't ever progress past the mentality of a 3 year old. Could i leave my 10 year old lab out while I'm gone? Probably. She sleeps in her crate while i'm gone and I'm )almost) sure that she would sleep on the floor while I'm gone. But I don't want to find out I was wrong at the expense of my dog's life, especially when they ENJOY their crates and LIKE being in a safe place.

I was given charge over these animals - I will care for them and not leave them to their own devices. Part of my responsible dog ownership is ensuring that their minds and bodies are stimulated enough to desire rest and re-charging when I'm not available. To this end, I play with each dog individually for 30 minutes each morning - hard play equivalent to the most strenuous aerobics class. We then take an 30 minute walk and brush up on obedience skills. Breakfast is served while I shower and prepare for the day, followed by potty time and a bit more fetching. Crate time is generally from 11-1. After errands, the dogs go back out to enjoy the fresh air and relieve themselves if needed. Before starting dinner for the human family, the dogs get another 30 minute aerobic workout. They lounge inside (or out if I'm grilling) until after dinner (theirs and mine) Two are competing and they get another obedience session in the evening, followed by a family walk. Before it gets dark, I take the one dog who is competing in field trials out for some bird work. Everyone then gets to watch TV before a final pit stop and retiring to various sleeping spots.

I've owned dogs for 40 years now. Always multiples and always highly trained. I've lost plenty, but it was always due to old age or disease and never to something preventable like a car accident or foreign object ingestion. This is due to careful supervision and superior training and I'd like to keep my record and my conscience clean.

I agree with all you said, Jamas, especially the fact the a dog is like a three year old child and who would leave a child alone in the house or unsupervised??

Just to add my two cents - I have NEVER crated my dogs, they are taught early not to put things into their mouths they are not suppose to. They are given enough time to play and run outside that when they are inside they are sleeping or are just trying to recover from their time outside. While some dogs prefer a crate, and some owners prefer a crate, I dont, I think that like a promise halter there is too much room for misuse or abuse, it is too easy for people to crate their dog than deal with the attention the dog is needing.