I love the "Coulterville Yellow". What shining foliage it has. The 'Irish Tea Noisette" is very nice also. Any chance of these making their way into commerce in the future?

Jill, is there any perceptible scent from the new growth, ovaries, peduncles and sepals of Coulterville? The foliage and flower color are from Foetida. If you can smell the "Juicy Fruit Gum" scent to any of the growth and flowering parts, it should point toward something early. If there isn't that type of scent from those parts, it's more likely a later Pernetiana/HT. Does it climb or is it more of a bush?

Could the pink one be 'Rainbow'? The weak stems seem to indicate a tea rose.

I thought of that when I saw the stripes on those three outer petals, but it seems to only be on those. I've seen another tea with a distinctive bend in the pedicel like this one has, but I can't remember which it was. I'm hoping someone will notice that and remember another tea like that.

Kim, it'll be a couple weeks before I can check scents. The foliage shape and color looks nothing like foetida to me, though the persistent yellow color may well be from that. Do you know any species with a bunch of red pistils like this has?

Banksiae, for one, but this isn't related to nor bred from Banksiae. What I see from the foliage texture, gloss, shape and color, and the flower petal coloring is a Foetida massaged Tea hybrid/Hybrid Tea. The part that throws me off are the yellow stamen. For something like a Doubloons or Golden Showers, they should be red. For most of the Foetida-based Tea hybrids, they were usually red.

Under wild guesses department, might 'Sungold' from Capt. Thomas be a possibility for the "Coulterville Yellow"?

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.6040

One parent is a Pernetiana, 'Souvenir de Claudius Pernet',. Pix of that rose do show the shiny foliage and yellow stamens.

I think you're right that 'Souvenir de Claudius Pernet' is a good starting place for the foliage and yellow color. Coulterville Yellow doesn't look like a hybrid tea, though, more like a hybrid musk or shrub. I'm also not sure if there is rebloom. There are so many descendants of 'Souvenir de Claudius Pernet' to look at!

I wonder if the yellow one could be Lawrence Johnston. It looks very similar to that rose.

They would be related through the foetida ancestor, but LJ doesn't have red pistils, and CY doesn't climb. I looked to see if LJ had descendants, but there are none listed.

I came across another photo of the bloom on "Coulterville Yellow". It's a much better view of the pistils and stamens.

Have you looked at 'Poulsen's Yellow' as a possibility?

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4935

:-)

~Christopher

How about Cläre Grammerstorf? I was looking her up for a possible order from Burlington.,

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.89801

Good guess, but Clare has red stamen. Coulterville, doesn't.

Poulsen's Yellow sure does strike a resemblance.

I'd wondered about Golden Showers, but no . . . The Poulsen's Yellow, though . . .

The color of the pistils and stamens are the problem with most suggestions- I really don't know of any rose with red pistils and yellow stamens. The neatly cupped semi-double form is another issue- none of the suggested roses have it. Any ideas about Irish Tea Noisette? It may well be a Dijon Tea, but is a paler yellow than any I've seen pictures of so far.

Could that yellow be a much more recent rose? the petal form in your last photo (as well as the leaves and new growth) remind me of Golden Holstein.

According to HMF, 'Poulsen's Yellow' is at the SJHRG, so you could compare it directly. And if you ever get to propagating PY, I'd love it if one were to make its way here, hint-hint. It's not carried by any US nursery.

;-)

~Christopher

BTW, Chris, Poulsen's Yellow is another fertile triploid... something which may prove useful in breeding difficult types. Well worth investigating...

Yes, I wanted it for that reason. Plus it's early and one of the few Yellows without HT in it. And no one carries it anymore.

:-/

~Christopher

I did look at Poulsen's Yellow at the Heritage, but again, red stamens and yellow pistils, as with most other yellows, instead of red pistils and yellow stamens. I took more pictures of "Coulterville Yellow, showing details of leaves, leaf reverse, bracts and buds, and those red pistils.

I don't recognize Coulterville, but the final pics you posted, Jill, makes me think of Crepuscule, and R. wichurana, and R. bracteata. Its got a bit of "Tea droop" to its foliage, and yet the first of the four recent pics screams bracteata hybrid, architecture-wise. But, but..... that foliage gloss is so very wichurana......

Jill, do you know anything about who planted it? Was this a division of something that person had in their own collection? Suddenly I am wondering if this might have been one of the Bracteata seedlings I shared with Mel years ago.

Paul- I collected the cutting in Coulterville in 2010. Fred was there last week and talked to the homeowner who said they planted it about 15 years ago. My cutting grown plant has been at the Heritage for a couple years.

Thanks Jill. That eliminates my theory. I have a Bracteata hybrid I made about 10 years ago that is remarkably similar in look and style to that plant.

Not that this is likely to help matters, but another rose with red pistils and pale stamens is this rose, which is an unstriped version of "Smith's Parish". The striped version also has red pistils, which is one reason I finally figured out the ID for my "Smith's Parish White"...

Virginia

Virginia, that's interesting, because the only other rose with red pistils I've seen is Austrian Copper. As far as I know there is zero relationship between that and Smith's.

That's facinating about AC's red pistils...and CY's. I don't think yellow R foetida has red pistils. (Or does it?) CY is a very mysterious rose! Carol

If the assumption is that "Smith's Parish" is actually 'Fortune's Five-coloured Rose', then it is very puzzling.

I'd love to know when "SP" was first noted as growing in Bermuda. It may not be very old at all... the earliest date I can find mentioned is 1954.

When I was first searching for an ID, the light green foliage had me thinking there might be Pernetiana ancestry, so that's an interesting parallel with the red pistils observation.

There is a record of a single-flowered rose, Rosa lutea pallida that was a seedling of Austrian Copper. No known offspring, but I do like to get my exercise jumping to conclusions...

Virginia

"...I do like to get my exercise jumping to conclusions...". Ha! Ha!

I think Basye's Purple has red pistils. Mine isn't blooming, darn it. Maybe the photos on the internet are revealing.... Carol

Well, Carol, have a look at this parent of 'Basye's Purple':

R. foliolosa

Now is when I want a botanist to step in and say if those are red pistils or not...

Virginia

I would suggest a whole lot of folks go out to their roses and begin pulling flowers apart. You will learn a LOT about what's inside of them. Red pistils are the norm for MANY roses. I find them all the time harvesting pollen from moderns, OGRs, minis, etc. So much so, I doubt it is a useful trait to use for identification. I would post some examples, except the wifi in the hotel in which I am staying this evening is so lousy, photos on HMF won't open. Look at Gloire des Rosomanes, Banksiae, Flamingo (Rugosa), Frances Ashton, and a host of others. The actual filaments (pollen tubes?) which carry the sperm into the ovary are red. The sticky tips are often red, but just as often clear, white, or translucent.

Basye's Amphidiploid 86-3 (Banksiae X Laevigata)

Kim, what can you tell us about red pistils... how common they probably are and how (and where?) the trait shows up in breeding lines?

I know that when I was trying to ID my mystery white ("Smith's Parish White"), the lack of red pistils amongst contenders was striking. And helpful, ultimately.

Virginia

Hi Virginia, red pistils and red stamen are as common in roses as blue or brown eyes are in people. Meaning they are not rare. They happen. You can tell what colors are possible in a cross with a rose by what colors occur in the entire plant. A yellow with yellow stamen and pistils or white ones, is "unstained" and will breed a pure yellow, an "unstained yellow". If you want to stabilize a purple, you can cross it with a strong yellow and it will enhance the purple. If there is red anywhere in the yellow flowered plant (including foliage, prickles, stamen, etc.), the purple can be "stained" with red. Think Paradise and Angel Farce. If there is no red in the yellow, there should be no red in the purple cross. But, the red occurs all the time and sometimes appears out of seemingly no where.

Now, we saw Coulterville Yellow today at the Heritage. Susan (poorbutroserich), Jill and I scoured the plant. Here are photos.

Notice this weird trait. Three leaves on new growth and it's virtually prickle-free.

Now, lookie here! "Cl. Yellow Blaze", which is Climbing Sunflare. It has similar foliage, similar blooms, the same three leaflet new growth that "morphs" into the usual five with age, and it has prickles. So, this must be "Cl. Yellow Blaze" with some mutation, perhaps Round Up? I dunno, but it shouldn't "rare". Yes, I edited this to change from my mis typed identification to Cl Sunflare. I had originally typed Cl Gold Badge. Sorry about that.

You guys are pretty clever to solve that one. Thanks for the info on red pistils, stamens, etc.

Have a safe trip home,

Virginia

Thanks, ma'am. Perhaps, but luck played a significant role. The potential mate happened to grow not too far from the unidentified plant. The really fortunate part was both expressing the same foliage color and texture as well as that odd three leaflet new growth. I honestly figured it had to be something like that from the first photos. When you see a plant and it "speaks to you". I'm sure you've experienced some of that before. Thank you. We head up to a large garden in Aptos in the morning, then off to San Juan Bautista to play in the "heat". My two partners in crime head back up here to Santa Cruz while I head south to my own warm, snug, overly populated bed for the first time since last Sunday night. It's been a real blast, but there still is no place like home and your own bed. You well understand that. G'nite!

It is a significant discovery if someone has found a non-virused specimen of 'Cl. Sunflare', which unfortunately became infected with RMV sometime in the late 90s or early 00s. I had some correspondence on the subject with Malcolm Manners about seven years ago. At that time, he stated he might be interested in using 'Cl. Sunflare' in the virus cleaning program at his university. I was at that time not able to supply cuttings so nothing came of it then.

Coulterville Yellow is not Cl. Sunflare.They have several similarities, and there is likely to be a relationship, but the shininess of the leaves on CV looks different from Sunflare, and Sunflare is well armed with big prickles, while CV is thornless. The bloom form is a bit different, too. Kim thinks it could be a sport, but I think there are too many differences for that. A seedling or product of the same breeding seems more likely to me.

There is a lengthy list on HMF of first generation progeny of 'Sunsprite', including a lovely single yellow floribunda from Warren Millington which won't have made its way here on account of rose wilt disease; one wonders how Australians manage to grow roses at all with so deadly a plague rampaging through their gardens. 'Mirabella' was sold in the US in the mid-90s, but seems in pix to have a few more petals than CY.