Better. That prep sink is way out in the hinterlands. It would be more in use nearer the frig or art least on that side Also a single bowl sink and consider investigating induction for the range or cooktop. I like the deep counter spaces.

square off cabinets in corners with appliance garages or open shelves. The angled upper cabinets can make your kitchen feel smaller than it really is.

I think I'd streamline the corner to the right of the stove and just run the cabs to the wall on the right. No corner cabs and no pinch point there. Move the range a little further to the right and make the range aisle 48 inches.

Thank you all for your comments!! I agree that right corner is off. I met with my kitchen designer and we decided to move the microwave from under the island to the the counter in that right corner. I think that will make it more accessible to the pantry and easier to see what's inside. Thanks again!

What's off is the turn around that corner. There needs to be no turn and no pantry there.

The prep sink needs to form a triangle with the fridge and stove. So it needs to be on the fridge side of the island or else it is useless for prep. And it needs counter space on both sides of it.

I'm sorry, but this is not a very functional design - mostly for the reasons Emily pointed out.

In addition, your island is a major "barrier island" - it's b/w the Prep Zone on the island and the refrigerator (I'm assuming that's where you plan the Prep Zone - if not and it's going to be on the perimeter b/w the cleanup sink and range, then it's not as much of a barrier.)

Are those two DWs flanking the cleanup sink? If so, do you really need two dishwashers? Do you need what I think is trash compactor? Most people today get rid of them when they remodel - I've never had one, so I don't know how useful they are but given that so many people get rid of them, I have to question their functionality.

Could you please post a sketch of the entire first floor -and- a bigger version of the 2D/overhead layout? (The overhead layout posted above is very difficult to read b/c it's so small and the printing is somewhat blurry.)

Have you had a chance to read the Layout Help FAQ? It discusses information that we need to help you find the best layout for you and your family.

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

Some of the information we need (see above thread):

• What is your family composition?

• Where are you flexible? Can the window be moved/changed?

• Can the sink and range be switched?

• What's behind the range wall?

• What's "below" the Kitchen?

• What table/seating spaces do you have ? Nook? Dining Room? Other?

• How many stools at the island? If that's a table space below, do you really need seating at the island?

Regarding the MW - if you put in a MW drawer they you won't have to give up counterspace for it.

Does that upper right corner have to stay? Can you make that wall flush with the wall below it? I.e., no wall/corner sticking out on the right so the Kitchen is a simple rectangle with no interruptions on the walls?

Like this:

I suspect a simple rectangle would also be less expensive.

I found your older thread - a full-floor sketch would be really, really helpful! I wonder if we can come up with something better - including a Mudroom for you.

So...

• First, what is it you really need?
• Second, what is it you want?

Give us a full list/description instead of just a layout!

I strongly recommend you read the Layout Help FAQ!

Older thread: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4463312/thoughts-on-layout-of-remodeled-kitchen

Include the garage and its dimensions in the full-floor sketch.

Ok, I'm no artist, but I've done my best to sketch out our existing floor plan. ha ha ha. I'll post that below, along with a close up of the floor plan proposed by our kitchen designer. But first, to answer some questions. The impetus for this kitchen remodel is to have room for barstools at the island--3 or more, to have more eating space and a more spacious kitchen overall. We have a fairly large family. DH and I have 2 sons who live with us, plus two grown sons, one of whom is married and has 2 children, so when all of us are together, which is fairly regular, it's 9 people. Most holidays, we host so that my husband's parents and siblings and their family can see our grandkids, which means about 20 people at once. The "ladies" usually gather in the kitchen and help out as dinner is prepared, and I want space for them to "hang out" and sit at the island. We do have an eat-in kitchen with a table and 4 chairs. Otherwise, it's our dining room. I've always had bar stools at previous houses, so, when we looked at this house before we bought it last year to be closer to town, I knew the kitchen was too small.

I actually built a house with a similar kitchen layout about 10 years ago (with help from this board!) and knew the minimum depth (IMHO) for barstools in a u-shaped kitchen is 15' . Unfortunately, this kitchen is well under that, so I knew when we first looked at this house it would need changed. We had a structural engineer advise us we could remove the wall between the kitchen and laundry room to expand. Because the master bedroom plus 3 others are upstairs, we decided we could turn one small bedroom upstairs into a laundry, and I am very excited about this idea as well. (I DID feel I needed to build into the kitchen space to hang coats and backpacks, which we have planned in a little nook where the entrance to the laundry room is now.

We want to keep all work confined to the inside of the house, as the kitchen portion of the house is two stories off the ground due to our walk-out basement, and the estimate we've already received for this work is quite high (about $25K more than we hoped to pay for the whole project) which means the window and cooktop/range area will stay the same. The hood wall is on an outside wall. Below the kitchen is our basement.

Although I do love my current double ovens, I have decided to forego them in lieu of a range with double ovens to allow me room for a beverage center/wine bar, which I also had in a previous kitchen. The beverage cooler was a great space for storing drinks for kids (both big and small!) and for staging drinks when we entertain. Therefore, that is a major "want" in the new kitchen.

Another major "want" is two dishwashers. We've long dreamed of being able to use clean dishes from one and load into another, so we decided while we're going to all this trouble, we should just do it. (My initial thought was to put a set of dish drawers in the island to supplement our dishwasher, but that is one thing in the whole kitchen my DH thinks would be amazing, so we're going to go for that.)

Also, I will explain the reason for the weird configuration of the right corner. My kitchen now is a perfect rectangle. Unfortunately, we cannot move the entire right wall as I had hoped, to keep it a perfect rectangle, because on the other side of our walk-in pantry are the breaker boxes in our garage. The contractor said it would be hugely expensive and a pain to re-locate those and was not really willing to do them. (I should add, I am in WV, where "jack leg" contractors are rampant, and it's extremely difficult to find one who is reputable and will do a good job, and I feel confident the person we've chosen is one we can trust to do a good job.)

Ok, I hope this is enough info. I'm happy to answer any questions and am eternally grateful for all the advice here. I'm typing this on my laptop, so I'm going to re-post below with my sketch of the kitchen. Thanks so much!!

Here's a closer view of the dimensions of the new proposed expanded space. One thing it doesn't have is dimensions of the walkways around the island. I believe the left walkway is 48" and the right is more, although I'm not sure.

How do you enter the pantry? And what is at the bottom right of the new layout?

Am I remembering correctly from your previous post- do you want the stools on the right side of the island?

I'm thinking your fridge should be to the left of the sink, then your work triangle and barrier island problems will be solved.

Emilyam819, hello! Yes, you are remembering correctly--we want bar stools on the right side of the island. And the current pantry door is to the left of the fridge. In the plan, we'd be foregoing the walk-in pantry for two pantry cabs flanking the fridge.

Speaking of the fridge, I actually had it in the location you suggest in the house where I built a similar kitchen. It was super functional but here, I'm wondering where I'd put the trash compactor & 2nd dishwasher, neither of which I had when I built a house with this floor plan.

Finally, the big box on the bottom right is a pre-existing coat closet, which I wanted to remove, but we have nowhere to relocate it. Therefore, we're doing a very narrow (about 11") depth "message center" with charging station on the kitchen side of it. Hope that answers everything and thanks so much!

I agree with emilyam--there should be just enough space for the fridge and DW. Do you need a trash compactor?

I pulled out the base cabinets on the sink wall to match the fridge box:

Mama_Goose, I do love that that plan that keeps my double ovens! I think I'd save money with this plan because I'd keep my existing fairly new double ovens and just buy a new cooktop. I also get deep drawers under the cooktop, which I also really wanted. With my double ovens in that corner, where would my microwave go? And what would be in the space on the opposite side of the island after the pantry is slid down to where the fridge was going to do? Another pantry or counter space? I was hoping for two pantries, so this might do the trick. :-) Thanks for your thoughts.

Maybe a beverage/snack center could go on the pantry side of the kitchen- beverage fridge, microwave, etc. Or maybe you want the 2 nd sink over there instead of on the island.

I'm sorry, but I don't see much improvement - the refrigerator is still going to be an issue to get to/from the Cooking Zone b/c now you have to dodge two DWs as well as someone working at the island back-to-back with someone working at the cleanup sink (or getting a clean dish out of one of the DWs/loading dirty dishes in the other DW).

Similarly, when you prep, you will also have to dodge two DWs and someone working back-to-back with you at the cleanup sink.

It becomes even more of an issue b/c the reason you're putting in two DWs is for dish storage, not b/c you actually need two DWs for washing dishes. This means you will always be using both throughout the day - one to get clean dishes out to use for a drink of water or for a snack or to set the table; the other to put the dirty dishes in - and they will be switching off as to which is which on at least a daily basis.

If you must keep this layout, then please have at least a 54" aisle b/w the island and perimeter - it will give you enough room for all the activity that will be in that small area of the Kitchen.

Tip: Be sure you have a way to easily determine which DW currently has the clean dishes so you don't accidentally use the dirty ones. This is especially needed if you pre-rinse your dishes to the point where you can't easily tell if the dishes are clean or dirty.

I wish you had posted the full floor layout we asked for as well as the garage dimensions - I was hoping we could come up with something better all around.

Depending on your garage, you might be able to create a Mudroom inside the garage.

I get the breaker issue, but I was still hoping we could do better overall.

I'll let the layout gurus handle the most efficient layout but do you really think it's practical to store dishes in DW? That entails opening door, sliding out rack to retrieve dishes vs just opening a drawer. Try living with it for a few days Using your curren dishwasher. I hate unloading dishes and to have to retrieve dishes from a dishwasher seems like such a pain bending and twisting vs opening a drawer.

Another thought, I would highly recommend a steam conv as one of your double ovens. You can use it to reheat things as well as cooking. I have the wolf and I love it! We put a small MW in a shelf on our appliance garage

I don't have the skills to mock up your plan, but I take Buehl's points. Can you move plumbing? Could you move the main clean-up zone to the recessed wall on the right (where the fridge and pantries are in your current plan), and then move the fridge to where Mamagoose had it? This would make your clean-up zone with the 2 dishwashers a distinct area, separate from the traffic in the rest of the kitchen, and the dishwasher doors would open into that recessed space, interfering less.

The left wall could then have the pantries, bev station and fridge, as well as a nice triangle from fridge to prep sink on the island, to the range area, and a big prep space run?

If you can change the closet on the end, the island can be moved out a few more inches, as buehl suggested, and the pantry moved closer to the fridge:

It was late when I made my last post, so I'm back with backyardfeast's suggestion, with a twist on the pantry, since you'll need nearby dish storage. I moved the island closer to the fridge again, to leave more space between the DWs and seating:

If you can upload a hand drawn sketch of the whole house layout, as buehl suggested, you might get more ideas.

In Mamagooses last plan, I love the dish hutch for dish storage. So convenient and a perfect spot close to the DW and outside the main kitchen zones for ease of setting the table. It's almost like my U shaped layout except my dish hutch is on the other side of sink (your location is better), I couldn't get a prep sink and my ovens are next to fridge.

Is your cooktop on exterior wall with nice views? If so, consider windows flanking the cooktop