Can you switch the sink & the range? Seems like an awfully long walk from the fridge to the sink. The island looks like largely wasted space - it will be most convenient to prep between the sink & the range (why bother carrying stuff back & forth?.) If anything, I'd just put a round kitchen table there if you want kitchen seating.

Giant amount of wasted space trying to ignore the fact that this is two rooms that are poorly joined into one. It’s what we call a remuddle. The bay window area will always be best suited to a breakfast table. That island shape is too long, too awkward, and too expensive for the dysfunction that you are ending up with.

You're better off leaving the rooms separate. With a peninsula between the kitchen and eating area. This reduces the value of the home. And it’s an even bigger money losing remodel than average. 10 cents on the dollar. Maybe.

You have absolutely no countertop space. It would drive me mad.

You would be better off losing the bay window in order to get a functional space that looks intentional rather than fitting a round peg in a square hole.

In your plan, your work zones are crossed and all of the counter space is exactly where you don’t need it and won’t use it. There will be other sales. Wait to get it right.

You need to hire a real KD. Not s cabinet seller.

For better function, you should move the fridge to the left of the sink. Then you can shorten and deepen your island with seating on one side.

If you are not concerned about function, then you can leave all of the appliances where they are. That’s lots of money for just changing the look. But it depends what your goals for the reno are.

Is the bay window counter height? If so or if you're willing to swap it out for a counter height bay window, I think you can make much better use of the space.

Here's what I mean:

I assumed that since you are willing to add a header in the DR's load bearing wall, that you can do the same to the side wall to move the garage entry.

I added a row of shallow (12" deep) pantry cabs on the DR wall. This will provide lots of storage for food, small appliances, etc.

I moved the cook top to the exterior wall between window and bay window. Venting out an exterior wall is always a plus (fewer vent bends = reduced fan noise & increased efficiency).

I added a prep sink to the island. If you can't swing this, you can do without it but it makes for a more efficient work triangle between fridge and cook top.

The sink is centered on the bay window.

I flipped the seating to the other side of the island so that people on the long side are looking out the windows and not at a wall.

If you can't or aren't willing to make the suggested changes, then your plan will work well enough with couple of changes.

I think you need to reduce the length of the seating overhang by 30" nearest the wall oven. As drawn, you've created a pinch point between island seating and oven cab.

You also have too narrow an aisle between island and sink counter. I can't read the fraction after 35" but less than a 36" aisle is tight for a work aisle. Reduce the length of the seating overhang near the oven cab, shift the island towards the DR wall 6" and add that to the aisle between sink and island. It still won't be wide enough to open the DR and the drawers in the island across the aisle at the same time (need at least 45" between counters to do that) but it will give you some much needed breathing space in this aisle.

Oops, one more thing. = )

If by "front of the fridge" you mean fridge doors, you can't recess the fridge into the DR wall to have the front of the fridge flush with the adjacent cabs. You won't be able to open the fridge doors without clearance on each side of it. If you mean to the front of the fridge body, not doors, you're good. And you definitely need those extra few aisle inches that you gain by recessing the fridge.

Is there anywhere you can add some (IMO) much needed pantry storage?

Thank you all for your feedback. I do have some questions though. I think it is important to note that this proposed layout keeps the appliances where they are in our current peninsular layout. I guess that is why it didn't raise any red flags for me.

Sophie Wheeler, what is the wasted space in this new design? How does it reduce the value of our home? We have a peninsula in our current layout along with the table in front of the bay and I don't like it. I do not like to move the table every time I want to clean the floor. And since the table is used for virtually everything our kids do, it is often cluttered and can be viewed from our front door.

We have had three different designers (not cabinet sellers) draw up plans for this space in the past year or so and they have all used the same basic concept.

Anglophilia, with regard to the counter space, I am guessing you mean in between appliances? I plan on using the end of the island with the butcher block as prep space. We currently use the peninsula we have as our prep area which is a little further away from the stovetop and sink than the island would be in this design.

emilyam819, would you put the fridge next to the bay window? And then use shallow depth cabinets on the wall where the fridge currently is? I don't dislike the concept but wouldn't the fridge would block the light coming in from the bay? Or would that be about the same as the upper and lower cabinets?

lisa_a, I had looked at a layout like you drew up but the cost of cabinets was pushing our budget. And it put the sink about 14' away from the fridge. Currently, we are about 9' away. But the biggest stumbling block is that there is a great deal of plumbing (Big Bummer #1) in the wall between the sink and bay window (which is below counter height..Big Bummer #2) which prevents ventilation from being added and is cost prohibitive to move.

"I think you need to reduce the length of the seating overhang by 30" nearest the wall oven. As drawn, you've created a pinch point between island seating and oven cab." Do you mean where the butcher block top will go? (There is a 47.5" allowance there now.) Or do you mean where the countertop will jut about past the butcher block?

I appreciate any feedback you can provide!!

The space between the island and the fridge wall looks very tight -- I feel like the island is too long and awkwardly sticking into the eating area. Don't rush this to save a buck before the end of the year. Find a kitchen designer to give you multiple options before deciding on a final layout.

I agree, the whole thing is awkward because your house was built for the kitchen it came with. If you don’t change the architecture, don’t change the appliance layout, and insist on an island, then that’s what any KD has to give you. My parents had the same kitchen. After years of considering inferior oprions, they changed the windows and bumped out a few feet.

Did you consider recessing the fridge and adjacent ovens/cabinets into the dining room?

We did consider recessing everything into the dining room wall but since it is loadbearing, it added an additional $5000 to the price tag, something we were trying to avoid.

To those of you who think it is an awkward layout, if we added some cabinetry to the left of the bay window, do you think that would help with continuity?

The 47 1/2" isn't a true aisle measurement because of the seating overhang that is almost directly across the aisle from the oven cab. Your diagonal measurement from oven cab to seating overhang is much less less than that. I estimated it at approximately 33" (had to make an assumption or two because not all measurements are provided on your drawing.)

That's a definite pinch point and why I suggested shortening the seating overhang.

However, there are also pinch points between island and fridge door and between
cook top run and fridge.

Your proposed plan does not consider diagonal aisle measurements, which are narrower than they should be and will definitely affect how easily you and your family can move through a space and how much door swings and open oven doors will hinder movement through the kitchen.

Here's what I mean:

I calculated the above based on fridge placement as drawn but it gets only marginally better with the fridge recessed into the DR wall. The aisles will still be narrower than NKBA's recommended minimum of 42". (NKBA is National Kitchen and Bath Association.)

The aisle between sink run and island is too narrow as well. DW doors are much taller than they once were so a 36" wide aisle is no longer sufficient. 42" would be better but even that isn't wide enough for you to be able to have the DW door open at the same time as island drawers pulled out.

I'm seriously questioning the skill and knowledge level of the 3 designers you met with. If they were kitchen designers - a specialized field - they aren't worth a hill of beans. That's harsh, sorry, but this plan has serious flaws that will impact how well it functions for you. Given how much kitchen remodels cost and how much the process disrupts life, that isn't right.

Regarding your comment, "1) the front of the fridge will be flush with the adjacent cabinets." Even if you are able to recess your full size fridge enough (could be up to 6") into the DR wall so that, kitchen-side, it looks like a counter depth (CD) model, the front of it won't be flush with adjacent cabinets. If you do this, the counter will extend beyond the front of the fridge, increasing the chance of dinging the doors against the counter when they are opened.

My CD fridge measures approx 29" deep, front to back, including the required air clearance behind it but not including the handles. Its box is flush with the fridge cab, which is 25 1/2" deep so that the adjacent counter dead-ends into the cab side. The doors are in front of the fridge cab so that they can swing unhindered.

Here's mine:

Honestly, if you want appliances and cabinets on 3 sides of your kitchen, you need to
give up the island. Your kitchen just isn't wide enough to accommodate one, at least not one that uses standard depth cabinets as its base.

Assuming that you can recess the fridge into the DR wall so that its box is flush with the adjacent counter, and 42" aisles between sink counter and island and island and oven (est 26" deep to handles), you can fit an island with 18" deep cabinets and 1" counter overhang front and back for a total depth of 20".

I'll echo what others have written: do NOT rush this process. You won't save money buying cabinets before the price hike if you end up with a kitchen that doesn't function well. You'll be trading one set of problems for another and have spent a good deal of money doing so.

Give us what you can and are willing to change and we'll help you figure this out. If you can't swing changing the kitchen's footprint, you have two choices: stick with MOL your current lay-out or wait until you can afford to do it the way you would like. If you plan to stay in your house for more than 5 years or if your neighborhood can support a major remodel, then I recommend the latter option.

We waited more years than I wanted to wait to remodel our kitchen so that we could do it right, which meant changing the lay-out and fixing the function issues. It was really hard to wait but I'm so glad we did because I *love* my kitchen. It's 2 1/2 years since we finished the remodel and there isn't a single thing I'd do differently. That's what your goal should be, regardless of what you do and how much you spend.

Oops, one more thing.

You stated that my proposed plan "... put the sink about 14' away from the fridge."

Not exactly. I added a prep sink to the island to create a good work triangle between fridge and cook top. But I completely understand if these kinds of plumbing changes aren't possible. A friend of mine used to say, "it's such a pity that we aren't all independently wealthy." So true, lol. Budgets and compromise: that's what kitchen design is all about.

Oooh boy. I agree with all the advice. I think that when the island extends out past the perimeter of the kitchen too far looks so weird. Sorry, I know that is not what you’d prefer to hear. But I’m sure you appreciate honesty.

I'd have to agree that without moving something an island just won't work well. I'm guessing this is a colonial style house? Is it a modular? (that can actually help a little-maybe).

I spent a little time fiddling with the plan this morning even though there is not enough information in the drawing to tell what is reasonable/doable to move. (how does the garage relate, the door to it is drawn as an opening with no door or casing, how big is the family room, what is the siding, what is below the kitchen and is it finished, what's going on in the Dining Room, how do those stairs work, what's the jog in the wall, which way is North, what is the view out the back..) Ran through 4 or 5 options quickly...even at the most optimistic I don't see an island solution without completely opening to the Dining room.

Since it sounds as if you're close to the limit on budget then an independent KD is not a good answer either. There are Cabinet Salesman who are decent designers (I'm one and know several near me) they are just harder to find. I doubt that is what you found- first off 3 designers in a year sounds like nobody got a retainer, secondly the drawing you posted is from 2020- software that's single advantage is cabinet pricing- the drawings don't show the complete space or enough information, AND you say all 3 had pretty much the same (not very good) plan.

Someone should be telling you "NO" but these are your options. If you absolutely can't move anything it is still possible to improve the kitchen as a U shape as Sophie suggests.

No seating at the peninsula to begin with-more clearance to the dining table.

An often unpopular solution is a corner sink at the peninsula end increase counter space and provides a large prep space.

Nothing will solve the the issue of the children's clutter at the table from the front door- find another place for them (hence the need to see the entire space and adjacent rooms)

Might reconsider your appliance choices- if this were mine there is no way I'd have a tall oven cabinet. Might go out now and buy a hi end toaster oven and give it a try. A few hundred bucks to see if it is an acceptable solution for your needs. If you entertain often enough or host a large extended family and need more consider a quality warming drawer, also consider a micro drawer. Yes those last two impact the budget so you will have to have someone sort out price/value/design for you.

Two statistics to keep in mind- most folks use the oven 5% of the time compared with the stove top (I bake so a bit more), similar figures for prepping versus washing dishes (with this you look out the window preping)

So here's one option (I didn't fuss with all the details like hood or show pullouts correctly), it's what I'd likely do if it were mine and I couldn't manage major changes to the architecture (mind you I hate peninsulas)

MarkJames & Co wrote what I was thinking: you need to go with a range, not a cook top and wall oven. Not only does a range suit the size of your modestly-sized kitchen better but it's a less expensive option than separate appliances.

We had a corner sink before we remodeled but it wasn't indented like the one Mark drew. I did a few test runs to see if I'd like that and decided that I'd end up with bruised hips more often than I'd like (but I am a bit of a klutz). Plus it didn't make it easier - and might make it harder - for more than one person to be at the sink. A corner sink makes it harder for 2 to use the sink at the same time - although DH and I managed to figure it out - but that's already the case with a 30" wide sink cab so likely a non-issue for you.

I came up with a peninsula plan, too, one that doesn't require moving plumbing or gas lines or structural changes, other than recessing the fridge into the wall.

Not sure if it addresses the issue of kid clutter visible from the front door but short of changing your line of sight or correcting their habits, I'm not sure how you'd do that with your existing footprint.

Eliminating the wall oven cabinet made room for a, IMO, desperately need pantry cabinet with ROTs (roll-out trays). A pantry cabinet provides more efficient storage for dry goods and large appliances than standard base and upper cabinets.

Like Mark, I'm also confused how the 48" wide landing zone cabinets fit into the kitchen plan. If you're widening the kitchen doorway and extending this cab and counter run outside the kitchen proper, you'll have a longer stretch than I've drawn.

The seating overhang is concept only. You'll need to discuss shape and support with your counter fabricator. Aim for at least 15" of seating overhang for comfortable counter seating.

I did a few test runs to see if I'd like that and decided that I'd end
up with bruised hips more often than I'd like (but I am a bit of a
klutz)

Since the indent is to the face of the sink 4" it's pretty hard to hit hips. I had one on display here and tried as hard as I could to hit my hips (and I'm a scrawny runt of an old man) without success. About the only way is to make believe you're playing hockey and hip checking the counter.

When doing corner sinks this is the ONLY way I ever do them. I've done maybe two dozen of them and no one has ever managed to bump hips. Just saying sometimes folks scratch things that don't really itch.

I did write that I'm a klutz but others here have posted that this type of set-up did not work for them so I'm not the only one who is not a fan. A friend of mine who is a CMKBD in the Bay Area discourages them as well.

To each their own. However, the OP should still be made aware of this potential downside to help her determine if this type of corner sink is right for her.

I know they are not popular on here, been around this place a long time. My experience IRL leads me to believe that it is more the look than the reality. I have particularly short legs and my hip bones are 39" from the floor, about where the average woman's is. Aside from actually trying to hit the sides the display I mentioned was our working coffee area for 7 years. Until we sold it this month no one had managed to bump.

The advantages to the recess are easier reach to any wall cabinets in the area, easier reach to clean all the way back and better clearance to adjacent base cabinets. Only a real world try will help someone decide.

I did try it IRL, Mark, in a showroom and at least twice on the many new and remodeled home tours I attended over the years while planning my remodel. Unless I stood centered on the sink - which I don't generally do in reality - I'd bump or come close to bumping my hip when I turned quickly to move to the adjacent counter. I like the look and disliked how deep my counter was behind my corner sink so I wanted this to work for me but it was not a good fit. It had zero to do with whether they were popular on this forum. If that was what drove me, I'd have a white kitchen. I don't.

You've made your point, I've made mine. Let's move on and let the OP decide whether this will work for her or not, okay?

Sorry for the delayed response. My notifications about posts were going into my junk mail. I will respond in depth tomorrow, but here is my current floor plan, MarkJames & Co.

A quick summary:

1) I am not against changing the appliance layout, but the proposed layout I started this post with is already a $50k plan and we don't want to even spend that much. If the layout can change and $$ can be saved elsewhere, I am more than happen to make changes.

2) I am not fond of a corner sink.

3) I don't like peninsulas (at all) but would do it if we could get more space without adding an island (although I'd love to have one).

4) lisa_a...I like what you propose but am concerned what the budget would need to be. I will have to investigate.

I also wish everyone could make their points in ALL without being mean and bi*%#y about it. So many of you have disagreed with this concept but have pointed out its flaws in a polite manner. I appreciate that.

More tomorrow...and thanks for your input!

"lisa_a...I like what you propose but am concerned what the budget would need to be. I will have to investigate."

My plan really doesn't have more cabinets than your plan did so cab costs shouldn't be that different.

The range is shifted down a bit from where you had it on your plan to give you a little more counter to its right but it's only by a few inches so perhaps not enough to incur costs to move a gas line (if you have one). Additionally, you'll reap savings by going with a range instead of a separate cook top and wall oven.

Thanks for posting your 1st floor plan. I see that there's a pocket door to the DR where I spec the fridge to be recessed. Since the DR will become your only table seating, do you still need a door to this room? IOW, how often will you close that door?

btw, we got rid of our pocket door between kitchen and DR when we remodeled. I thought I'd miss it but I don't.

" I don't like peninsulas (at all) but would do it if we could get more
space without adding an island (although I'd love to have one)."

I came up with an island plan but it requires moving plumbing (sink from perimeter to island) and electrical or gas for the range (range from right wall to exterior wall). Since you've said that your budget is pinched, the island plan is likely as far out of your reach as the first island plan I created so I didn't post it. Plus, it's lean on storage and I doubt you can give up cabinet storage without regretting that decision.

I tried to find another way to add an island to your kitchen but it's just not wide enough with cabinets and appliances on 3 walls without ending up with a skinny island that is more of a nuisance than a useful feature in your kitchen.

I wish I'd been able to find a way to add 2 more feet to my kitchen without spending a dime, too. But I never found the magic kitchen stretcher wand, dang it. = )

Could something like this work? I’m not sure I have the scale and isles correct. Just for an idea.

I got so excited when I saw your idea, Rebunky, thinking you'd found a way to make it work! But then, durn it, I did the math .... there's room for an island but not one that includes seating along the long side. It works best if Katie swapped out her standard depth fridge for a CD model.

156 7/8" room measurement, top to bottom

- 25.5" sink cab & counter depth

- 45" aisle - extra room to open DW door and island drawers at same time, plus open fridge door and still have room to get by.*

- 12" shallow pantry cabinets

- 44" aisle for seating

________

30 3/8" width for island

* aisle between fridge and island shrinks to 36"-37" with a full depth fridge. No one's getting through when the fridge door is open.

But maybe there is a way to make it work. Let us play with this for you, Katie.

Here's my take on Rebunky's suggestion:

I drew it with a CD fridge but you can use a full size fridge. The aisle clearance from door to counter is marked in the parentheses. Subtract about 2" more for distance between fridge handles and counter.

If you get a CD fridge, you can shift the island 3" towards the sink wall and still have a decent aisle between fridge door and island. That would allow you to increase the pantry cab depth from 12" to 15" to give you more storage. Given that you'll only have room for 3 - 18" wide cabinets on the perimeter, extra storage would come in handy.

That isn't possible with a standard depth fridge, though. You wouldn't have room to maneuver the fridge into place or move it out to clean behind it or have it repaired, etc. The aisle would be roughly the same depth as the fridge (including handles) so zero wiggle room.

The island would be something like this but without the shallow seating area, which looks to be about 6". That's not enough of a overhang for anyone to sit comfortably for any length of time. 15" is the recommended minimum for a seating overhang; 18" is better, especially if you and your family are tall.

The bay window seat would be a great place to hang out with a friend and a cup of coffee. Or an adult beverage. = ) (I'd add a seat cushion for tushy comfort.)

This upside of this plan is that you get an island. Another upside is that it flows from fridge to sink to counter to range, the usual progression for making a meal, without lots of extra steps. The addition of the window seat with storage helps make the island length and placement into the existing breakfast nook look less forced and odd.

But ... the L portion has limited counter and cab space, the DW is in the prep area between sink and range, and you won't be able to open the DW door and the range door at the same time. The above reasons are why I don't think this plan works for more than one cook nearly as well as the 2 peninsula plans presented above.

btw, as I worked on this drawing, I realized another serious flaw with the plan the designers presented to you. It would be very difficult to get a full size fridge through that 33" pinch point between seating overhang and oven cab without damaging the fridge, the cabinet or the counter. Or all 3. The installers would have to take the doors off the hinges to get it in place. Doable but a PITA.

PS Your existing lay-out isn't that bad, really. I'd move the sink and DW to the peninsula - I expect you're having to twist from sink to DW in the current set-up - which would give you a lot more counter between sink and range.

It's likely not all that different than Scrappy25's marvelous kitchen

A lot of the photo links are broken, but you can find several that still work if you scroll all the way down the thread. It's really too bad that the links are broken because she did wonders with the footprint she had.

Here's a photo I found on another thread.

I don't like Peninsula's either. OTOH I would not crowd a lovely window.

I had a hunch the garage door wasn't going anywhere and budget was what I would have guessed. Re budget-

Appliances- double wall oven, cooktop and some sort of micro- $4k plus vs Range, toaster oven, and micro drawer- $3300

Peninsula plans have about 38 ft of cabinet; Island plans shown hit 48- Counters are also more.

I prefer putting budget towards more efficient cabinets than spending it on just more cabinets that are not efficient. Same goes for counters- (and I get paid for those things but not any extra for selling less)

This plan has sink in peninsula not in corner.

Trick here is keeping the DW from being slammed into a corner while keeping clearance from the fridge. There is room enough to recess the fridge some (I'm guessing you already have the fridge? and with kids and water through the door a french door counter depth isn't likely to work for you) Clearances shown are adequate.

NOTE that the bumped out sink and the niche above ADD to the counter costs- something to balance.

That's about it for me- final note: while I get paid by selling cabinets (except when dealing with other professionals).. if presented with the island plans I would send the client elsewhere. OTOH as much as I dislike peninsulas I'd be willing to live with it or a variation in my home if need be.

Nice plan, MarkJames & Co.

katie1966, this is quite similar to scrappy25's lay-out, which works very well for her. IIRC, she really wanted an island, too, but finally realized that it wouldn't maximize her kitchen as well as a peninsula plan. btw, I found photos of her kitchen via a Google image search. I'm going to post them in her reveal thread so check there shortly.

I love scrappy’s kitchen too! Shoots Lisa, I was hoping to get that island in their somehow for Katie. But yeah those isles would be too tight. I knew my scale was way off. Even if you did a 10” seating overhang to gain some inches (I have 9 1/2” and it works ok for us, but I know it’s way too small for most people) the dw placement on the right of sink would be a deal breaker for me. Also agree if you keep a standard depth fridge it will be a beast that does block your nice bay window.

I like MarkJames plan a lot. My mom has that layout with sink on her peninsula, then the big expanse of prep with windows, then turn the corner to the stove. Fridge and pantry across the U. It works great.

MarkJames & Co, thank you for layout concept. It is pretty close to the layout we have now (with MUCH nicer finishes and the sink moved). I am going to examine it further.

I would love to see more of Scrappy25's kitchen you reference but can't find photos of it. Anyone know where to find them?

lisa_a, I like your Plan A and am going to investigate whether not the cooktop and hood can be moved there without incurring too high of a cost with the plumbing that is currently located in the wall in that location. It includes a 3" pipe and two 2" pipes. Luckily, the basement below is unfinished but I have no idea what needs to be moved and if it would cost $1,000 or $5,000. Plan B, with the angled peninsula, is not a design that I would like. Plan D would be an option too, if we decide we don't want to use the brand new double wall oven that is in our garage. (Bought at @ 80% off so I couldn't resist!)

We are willing to replace that bay window with some sort of counter height window if we need to, although we would lose about 12"-14" of width unless we add a series of double-hung windows. We cannot make it a reading nook or anything like that since it is too high to serve as seating. Also, adding any type of cushion would cover the bottom of the windows.

We do have a french door full-size fridge, range and a double wall oven. We still need to buy the microwave drawer (Sharp 24") and possibly a 30" induction cooktop.

Please take a look at this photos and see what you think of this concept. (Sorry, but I don't have a top view right now. I think it has addressed some of the original critiques.)

FINGERS CROSSED!!!

Ah, did not realize that you already owned the appliances and that some of them are new. Okay, that nixes any plan that doesn't accommodate them.

I like the concept of the plan you just posted but the math still won't work, not without creating serious pinch points. You just don't have enough room to have a counter run on the exterior wall, an island and a fridge on the DR wall with adequate aisles between perimeters and island.

If you want to do a version of my Plan A, you have to move the fridge to the same wall as the wall ovens.

156 7/8" room width

- 25.5 cook top wall cab & counter depth

- 29" depth of full size fridge recessed into DR, *not* including hand depth.

- 42" aisle between island and cook top wall

- 42" aisle between island and fridge door

______

18 3/8" remaining for island.

You need a minimum of 27" for 24" deep cabinets with 1 1/2" counter overhang front and back. That's 8 5/8" more than you have.

Shrinking the cook top aisle from 42" to 36" - the bare minimum - won't do it and I strongly recommend that you do not shrink the fridge aisle from 42". You want enough room to be able to maneuver your full size fridge in and out of its cavity for cleaning, repairs, etc. If you cut it tight, you run the risk of damaging counters or fridge when you move it out of its cavity.

Is there a reason why you resist moving the fridge away from the DR wall? Moving it next to the DO wall cabinet eliminates the need to mess with the DR wall, which saves you money that you can apply to plumbing changes.

I realize you already have the double wall oven - but there’s some really good ideas here that have a range instead of separate cooktop+ovens - maybe you could sell the ovens and make a decent profit (since you got it for such a good price = more $ for the reno!)

either way, good luck with your kitchen!

That thought occurred to me as well, damiarain. I see brand new appliances on craigslist all the time.

What if you got rid of everything on the dining room wall. Then fridge on the bathroom wall, prep sink next to it, turn the corner to prep under the window, then range. No double ovens. Sell your 80% off find on Craigslist. Then the cleanup sink is in the island with dw to the right, then a big dish drawer for unloading. It’s different, but your space is too. :-) oh and do the island with seating further across sink then in Lisa’s plan A. I think that you might get decent isle widths with it....maybe 36-37 behind seating, 42” on range wall???

eta: woke up this morning thinking, where will glasses go, micro, food, etc...! :*) There is just such a lack of storage trying for these island designs because of not having enough isle width for the dining room wall to have the fridge and bigger pantries. Really hoping that you will look closely at MarkJames plan. It really does work well in my mom’s kitchen. That or Lisa plan A. The sink under the bay window would be awsome if you can swing it financially.