Does this help you understand why it makes more sense to put the Prep Zone in the island and the Cooking Zone on the perimeter -- in addition to all the good points MamaGoose brought up...

Kitchen work studies show:

• 70% or more time/work spent in the Kitchen is spent preparing a meal or snack [Prep Zone]

• 20% or less is spent cleaning up - and that includes not just sink work (hand washing a few items), but also non-sink work such as loading the DW (if you don't pre-rinse your dishes), unloading the DW, clearing the counters & table, wiping down the counters & table, and sweeping up at the end of the day. [Cleanup Zone]

• 10% is spent cooking - stirring, adding ingredients, checking things in the oven, watching food cook [Cooking Zone]

Based on the above, it makes the most sense to have the Prep Zone in the best spot - whether for the view or for visiting, whichever you prefer.

In addition, you need at least 24" of counter space on each side of the cooktop/rangetop/range for safety as well as 24" b/w the back of the cooktop/rangetop/range and the seats on the island, whether diagonal or directly behind the cooktop/rangetop/range.

Seats at the island...you only have room for 4 seats, not 6! [See "edited to add" text below.] The two on the short end will not work. First, they cannot share leg/knee space with the seats on the other sides and second, you need at least 48" for two seats. Look at how MamaGoose configured the seats on her layout -- there is no overlap on the corner.

Edited to add: It looks like the turquoise lines are your actual island edges, so maybe you do have room for 6 people. The drawing is a bit confusing and missing some key measurements, so it's difficult to tell for sure what's there.

Seating minimums:

• Minimum 24" linear space per seat for counter-height (30" for table-height, 24" for bar-height)
• Minimum 15" of clear leg/knee space - more if you are a tall family or have long legs
• Seats cannot share leg/knee space on corners.

Yes buehl I also like that the prep is right in front of the fridge. Easy to take food out and right behind is prep! Thank you! I know we can make this awesome and flow just needs a little tweaking. I have been lurking for awhile on here and it seems like there are just things that you all bring up that really polish the layout. This will probably be the only time I do this so I just want to make it perfect!

Just to clarify...you want three types of seating right on top of each other, correct? You appear to have the space (assuming that area to the right of the Kitchen is empty right now.)

Nook seating "above" the Kitchen, island seating, and a table b/w the Kitchen and Family/Living Room in the far upper right corner...is that correct?

Or, are you converting the entire Nook into an entry?

If not...Why not put the "formal" Dining Room table in the Nook area? It's much nicer there and will help "dress up" the front entry.

If you are....then put the Dining Room table in that open space b/w the Kitchen and Living/Family Room.

Now, you have

• The Dining Room table for dinner or any meal with all four of you
• The island for breakfast, lunch, and snacks

The Nook as a formal entry --or-- how about a nice sitting room with a couple of nice chairs?

I can get you additional measurements no problem. Sorry it's confusing - yes I do think the island is larger than you originally thought and 6 will fit. I would like the entire nook to be an entry. We have never really had one due to the position of the house and where the parking is at so that is important that we have a designated entry area there. I love the idea of a entry/sitting area I think some chairs would look nice maybe even a bar cart too.

I found most of what I needed on the original drawings. After studying them, they became easier to read.

Are these correct?

The red ones I'm guessing at.

It's after 1:00am here and I'm heading to bed -- more tomorrow!

Here's another version of the turned island plan. The range is moved so that the vent is not next to the front door, and the hood is more of a focal point from the new front entry. The island is dedicated to prep, but there is more zone crossing. MW is a drawer, which opens toward the fridge. The DW and dishes are not as convenient to the dining table, but there's still space for helpers.

Buehl - Updated layout with just dimensions and more notes of the current layout. Also put some notes on top of your layout. Thanks for the help!

Thank you mama goose. Talking to DH today and he would like to avoid a sink in the island if we can due to the cost of adding water and drainage. We are trying to stay around 30k with DH doing most of the work himself (he is a contractor but that's not what he does for work). We will have some stuff we sub out but most will be done by him. I would prefer stove on the perimeter and sink in island but I just don't know if we can make it work budget wise.

Having a sink on the island would make it much more efficient for multiple cooks, but I have no sink on my island, and I still consider it one of the best--if not the best--features of my remodel. My sink and range are in m/l the same locations, relative to the island in the second plan I posted, and I often stand at the short end of the island, across from the sink, to knead bread dough and roll pie crust. I made 8 batches of noodles for a family dinner on Father's Day, and was able to spread all of them on the island to dry.

I also have a view of the DR from that aspect, as well as a view of my china display. It looks as if you'd have a nice view of the fireplace.

Do you have a basement below the Kitchen? Or, are you on a slab?

If you have a basement, it's actually relatively inexpensive and easy to add/move plumbing.

OTOH, if you're on a slab, then it can be more difficult and expensive -- depending on how the original plumbing was installed.

No basement we are on slab.

Ah! That would make it more expensive -- understood!

So, does that mean that the existing sink cannot move at all?

It can move but preferably on the same wall.

For additional information, there are three main components to a successful/functional Prep Zone:

• Direct access to water
• Sufficient clear counterspace; the bare minimum is 36"W x 24"D - 42" or more is much better
• Location, location, location -- it should be near the Cooking Zone (with the range) - either next to the range or across from it. It should also be separated from the Cleanup Zone (with the DW)

I understand about the slab. But I do wonder how important it is to you to have multiple work zones, b/c right now, it's going to be tough getting functional work zones in a functional "order" (following workflow) without being able to add plumbing elsewhere.

You have several significant constraints:

• Biggest/most impactful constraint: Water cannot be added or even moved much

• The Laundry Room is forcing both a narrow alcove to the right and it's shortening up the overall depth of the Kitchen (top-to-bottom)

• Major traffic through the Kitchen from the new entry/foyer, so the aisle behind the island must be wide enough to accommodate the traffic - but that's also where your Kitchen is not as deep b/c of the Laundry Room.

Some people may say they don't need water to prep, but you do. (Read Marcolo's Ice.Water.Stone.Fire thread about it - it's in the Read Me thread with the Best Practices/Good Design Guidelines post.)

Does the island have to seat 6? You are a family of 4...

In case you haven't seen them...

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads - These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Layout Help - FAQ for asking for layout help. It has a sample measured layout as well as a description of the other information we need

Read Me thread - Other, helpful information for using and navigating the Kitchens Forum. Especially useful if you are new to the Kitchens Forum!

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New to Kitchens? Read Me First!

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4306041/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first

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Layout Help:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

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Not sure if you will find it useful, but if you search for nightowl's 2016 kitchen reveal, you may see something to help your plans move forward.

I will say that big proposed island in your plan doesn't leave much walkway would bother me. I also agree an oven in the island seems sketchy.

For a pantry, have you considered a stacking washer/dryer? That might free up space to make a nice closet pantry on the kitchen side. Just a thought without understanding your plan much.

Thank you for the feedback. Feeling like we should just start over at this point :( Yes Buehl I have checked out all of those links I think it's now more of convincing DH we might need to re work it. He doesn't think the oven in the island is a problem. I would prefer it in the perimeter but I do understand we have to work with our budget. This is so hard! I am so glad I posted the plans for professional eyes it has brought up so many items I wouldn't have thought about. I Continue to be very appreciative of the help!!!

The island does not have to seat 6, 4 would be just fine in my opinion.

Night owl - searching for the kitchen now. Haven't thought about stackables but I will now!

I feel like we have the space to make it work but just feeling so overwhelmed by the design aspect.

***** WARNING -- Tough Love Follows *****

Take a deep breath...I'm not trying to be malicious, I'm trying to bring to light major issues and sometimes it takes blunt talk -- sorry! (I really am trying to help!)

Regarding your designs...if you're going to be spending so much $$$ on this remodel and it has to last you 20 years, then you need to start thinking about long-term needs, not short-term (as in right now). Don't be so shortsighted that you hurt yourself later.

Once your very young children start really helping in the Kitchen, you will definitely need more workspace! If your husband helps in the Kitchen, then you are now looking at 3 or 4 people working at one time. They might not all be cooking -- you could have someone cleaning up or unloading the DW, a couple of people working on the meal, and another person setting the table or baking bread. So, rather than plan for what goes on now (for a very short time), start looking ahead and plan for what will most likely be happening very soon and lasting for many years (children grow up very quickly and are helping in the Kitchen b/f you know it -- and continue to do so for many, many years to come!)

If the driving factor for not adding water to the island is money, then I recommend saving for a few more months to save enough to break into the slab. I don't know how you're saving (and I don't want to know), but even if it takes another year or two to save the additional $3K or $4K, it would be well worth it in the long run!!

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I'm surprised your husband doesn't understand the issues with a range in an island -- especially the one in your proposed layout...the most obvious:

• Not enough safety margin on the sides (need at least 24" on each side) -- especially with children and b/c it's on a very busy aisle
• Not enough workspace on the sides (need at least 36" on one side)
• Too far away from the Prep Zone (the non-DW side of the sink). Imagine trying to carry a pot of boiling water to the sink and having to dodge all the traffic you now have coming through the Kitchen b/c of inadequate aisles and poorly placed work zones other people trying to work in the Kitchen, and, possibly, an open DW door
• The Cooking Zone should be the most protected work zone in your Kitchen, not the least protected!!
• Oh, and btw, venting a range in an island (or peninsula) is quite a bit more expensive than against a wall.
  -- Hood needs to be finished on all 4 sides, not 3
  -- Hood needs to be extra over-sized (at least 6" wider, preferably 9" or 12"; 27" deep)
  -- If not mounted properly (usually 30" off the cooking surface), you will need an even stronger fan - which may require makeup air (MUA) -- which can be very expensive!
  -- Hood will be a major focal point and distraction in your Kitchen

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In addition, as your design stands,

• Your proposed layout has virtually no workspace in the Prep Zone! As mentioned above, the Prep Zone is on the non-DW side of the sink.

• You have a lot of wasted counterspace on the island b/c it's not very useful as a Prep Zone.

• The most expensive pantries you can have are 24" deep pantry cabinets -- and the least efficient/least usable if they're more than 18" wide (even 18"W is poor if it's not a pullout pantry).

• Your aisles are too narrow, especially b/w the island and outside wall -- minimum aisle for seating is 44" with no traffic and not a work aisle. You need at least 48", with more if at all possible b/c the entry is going to drive all your traffic through there. (Plus, you have the range there -- more danger so more aisle width needed)

• The refrigerator will not work where you have it --
  -- You will not be able to open the door fully b/c the wall is in the way on the right. Since all your work zones are to the left, the refrigerator door hinges will need to be on the opposite side - against the wall.
  -- With the exception of true built-in refrigerators, the doors of refrigerators must stick out past all adjacent items -- counters, walls, other appliances, etc.

• One of the least efficient cabinets for storage (and one of the most expensive base cabinets) is a corner cabinet -- whether it's a corner susan or a blind corner. They only make sense when there is plenty of additional room on both sides of the corner to warrant the loss of functional cabinets. The "top" corner in your design is not useful. There isn't enough space to the right. Instead, the cabinets on the outside wall should die into the wall blocking the entry from the Kitchen - you will not only have much better and more useful storage and workspace, you will also have more room b/w the island and the sink run of counters.

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In the end, this is your Kitchen and your home, so it's up to you what you do. We can only point out the issues and give you possible solutions -- you have to decide what do do with the information.

At the very least, you will be making an informed decision -- knowing the pros/cons of whatever you decide.

Wow ok thank you....digesting it all now :) sad about losing the pantry pull out shelves but I don't know where else it could go.

It flows so much better now.

I agree with thinking about what long term will be like. I also like a wider walkway from the front door. I will have to look at some examples of a pantry set up like that to get a visual. Thank you again.

"...sad about losing the pantry pull out shelves..."

Trust me, you will be better off with the shallow pantries and so much more storage space than those pullouts would have given you!

I know that gadgets & gizmos look great on paper, but sometimes the reality is different! (As an example, a blind corner pullout looks great -- until something falls off and you cannot close it until you send a small child inside the cabinet to retrieve the fallen item!)

Not to say gadgets & gizmos are always bad -- I have quite a few in my Kitchen that I really like and at least one that I realize now could have been better, long story...

Pantry thread:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2401919/pantry-photos-pics-of-pantries

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[BTW...I finished editing my layout post above.]

Really good points on the pantry. I have a visual now and I think it's a better use of space.

With the money we save by not doing that pantry we can probably afford to put water in the island.

Ha! a small child lol I can totally picture my son doing that. The analysis is great and really gives me a clear idea and purpose for everything. I may even be able to find a great antique hoosier or pie safe to incorporate into the pantry area.

joshdame - buehl's wonderful illustration is very close to my recently redone kitchen. The only significant difference in the perimeter is the frig, and I would have preferred that if I could have done it that way.

I love a lot of seating choices and have no trouble with island seating next to table seating of all kinds. In our house, we do a lot seated at tables other than eating.... That said - do you really need all that island seating? If 2-3 seats would do, your storage in the island would multiply, which might help with your food storage concerns in some way.

I would still explore a closet pantry. We had one in another house that was about 2.5 feet deep and 3 feet across. Amazing storage and no expensive pull outs - just wonderful adjustable shelves and I also had Elfa shelving on the inside of the door. - That closet fit it ALL.

ETA - trash!!! If you think ahead of the space and type of sink, you can put a trash can under a sink. We have that and it is great. You have to really plan for it and have the sink drain planned and your plumber on board because some creative piping may be required.

Buehl - if I didn't want to open the plans up to critique I wouldn't have pushed him to let me get all of your opinions. Design and visualizing things is so hard for me. Everything you have brought up I am so thankful for. Like I said originally I have never done this before and although I have an amazing contractor DH it's these aspects that we are both not experts in.

Nightowl I do want at least 4 so we can eat breakfast and lunch at the island. We do almost always eat at our table so I would imagine we will continue to use the formal dining for dinner.

I do have metal shelving in the garage that holds all of our surplus goods (i.e. Costco size purchases) so that will take some load off the pantry. I am going to keep thinking about where a small pantry could be. However, the more I research pantry design the more I think Buehl has a very good point with the long shallow set up.

beuhl, would there be a way to put a trash drawer next to the prep sink as I think there would be the best space. Caveat, if they are allowed to put in an insinkerator then the trash where it is, would be fine.

brittdame...I was just trying to find a way to help you understand what we were all telling you - I have found that at some point, bluntness helps -- even if it initially offends or puts someone on the defensive. That's what others did to me back when I was insisting on an island in my Kitchen -- which absolutely cannot support one! That's what it finally took for me to realize everyone was telling me this for my own good, not theirs!

I waited to post it until I had a possible solution so I could, maybe, soften the previous post. On a positive note, if I don't think someone will try to understand, I don't bother posting the "tough love", I just quit posting -- I saw signs that gave me hope with you and your DH!

CPArtist...I put the trash pullout next to the range b/c I didn't think there would really be a sink in the island and, so, the island would only be a tertiary Prep Zone. By putting it next to the range, it put it near the Prep Zone to the left of the cleanup sink, next to the range/Cooking Zone, and, on the off chance the island was used despite no water, not far from the island.

If there is water on the island, then I agree that it would be better there.

Thanks buehl. I knew you'd have a really good reason!

Since the stub wall is not structural, but included to block the view of the kitchen from the new entry, you could move the fridge over slightly and add a tall cabinet on the side. It would be convenient for dropping keys, purse, phones, hanging a jacket or two on pegs, or you could keep a broom or snow shovel near the front door.

Buehl - Working with our cabinet source to see if they can accommodate the plans. Will continue to post photos for sure. Super excited! Your help has been immensely appreciated. Thank you again! Which thread do I post in as we move forward?

Mama goose - great ideas. I LOVE the grocery pass through and wanted it when we started. I will show DH the fridge cabinet and see! Thanks so much for the idea!

Interesting modifications MamaGoose!

However, be aware of a couple of things:

Garage wall:

• First, to meet Fire Code, the "pass-through" door will need to be "fire-proof" (ranging from 20-minute to 1-hour fire-rated -- depends on locality). That's why you usually have a heavy duty fire door b/w garages and homes.

• I think the door must also be self-closing -- but you could get around it with a hook to keep it open while you're unloading groceries.

• Second, Any opening must also not allow carbon monoxide & other fumes from the garage to enter your home. This can be accomplished with weatherstripping/seals on all four sides of the opening.

• Finally, that wall is probably load-bearing, so it won't be as simple as breaking into the wall - you will have to build a load-bearing header.

I don't know of any pocket/sliding door that meets the Code, but there might be some out thee. I suggest looking around.

If you can do it, then I think it's a good idea! It would make bringing groceries into the house so much easier than walking from the new garage door! You will lose quite a bit of upper cabinet storage, but with the pantry on the far right, I think you can "afford" to lose it!

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Message/Command Center facing the front door:

Is this going to be your family's every day entrance? Or, are they going to be using the new garage door? If the new garage door, than I'm not sure how useful having a Message/Command Center is next to the front door -- it would be better located near the new garage door where you will want your keys, etc. No one will want to store their keys far away from the main family entrance - and they won't, they'll put them wherever they can that's close to the every day entrance. It will also be inconvenient for just about everything else a Message/Command Center is used for -- purse, family calendar (if you use one), mail drop/sorting, etc.

If you do plan to have the family use the front door every day (and can enforce it), then MamaGoose has it in a good location.

• You will probably need at least 3" of filler b/w the cabinet and the wall to allow it open fully.
• Or, consider doors that swing/roll into the cabinet instead of opening out -- but that will only be possible of the cabinet is deep enough to accommodate the size of the doors. So the doors will need to be no wider than the depth of the cabinet - 1" or so (to accommodate the back wall of the cabinet).
• Definitely include the doors of some sort on the cabinet so you can hide the clutter when you have parties, etc.

One negative: You lose the 21"W upper cabinet to store glasses. You could use a drawer, but I find upper cabs better for glasses than base cabinet drawers.

You also lose most of the 18" workspace & base cabinet, space that I was thinking could be used for stacking dirty dishes when needed to help keep them out of the workspace b/w the range and sink and out of sight from the Entry. The refrigerator does a great job of blocking whatever is right next to it. Once you move away from the refrigerator, things become more visible very quickly, if they're not already visible from the entry.

re trash - my kitchen is very close to this plan. Please see photos below for trash. You have to work the plumbing and get a sink that allows for it, but this is a GREAT feature in our kitchen. Please excuse the mess - we just fed 18 hungry teenage basketball players.

Buehl - regarding where we will enter....it will most likely be through the new garage door and I have already picked out a backpack/coat/drop zone so yes it would be more useful out of the kitchen. Good idea though for sure. Nightowl interesting I will show DH and see what he thinks. Our plumber is pretty creative so I think he could handle it. Getting new cabinet and counter quotes first thing Monday!! Super excited!

BTW...at first, I thought the location of the trash pullout in MamaGoose's layout would be better elsewhere. However, as I started working on another version, I realized it's probably a good location! It allows you to have two separate Prep Zones on the island.

• The Prep Zone to the left of the sink would have over 48" of workspace
• The Prep Zone to the right would have over 40" of workspace.

The Prep Zone to the left of the sink would be the better one to use on a day-to-day basis (along with the one b/w the sink and range) b/c:

• It's closer to the range
• It's closer to the refrigerator
• The island is not as much of a barrier to it as it is to the space to the right of the sink
• There's more aisle space b/w the island and the cabinets/range behind it
• Less conflict with access to the Pantry
• You wouldn't be prepping directly in front of someone sitting at the island.

Therefore, it makes sense to have the trash pullout in the left Prep Zone as well as the larger amount of workspace. BTW, it also puts the trash pullout close to the Cooking Zone and somewhat near the Cleanup Zone & Prep Zone b/w the sink and range. However....

Nightowel's trash idea would be even better b/c the cleanup sink is quite wide and that idea just might work -- it would then put a trash pullout in the Prep Zone to the left of the cleanup sink and close to the Cleanup Zone.

One change I suggest is to move the MW drawer to the range wall -- probably b/w the range and Laundry Room wall. -- to get it out of the middle of a Prep Zone and out of the way in general.

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Here's what I worked up using some of MamaGoose's ideas:

Layout #2:

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Layout #2 - Zones:

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Yes I like the MW location much better. I think we will keep the trash in the island as opposed to putting it under the sink. DH doesn't like the pass through so we will omit that. Everything else looks awesome! Thank you so much!

Here it is without the pass-through to the garage:

Layout #3 - island sink, island trash pullout, no pass-through to garage

(same zone map as Layout #2)

Thank you so much!

Buehl is there an alternative to the microwave drawer? Does it have to be a drawer type?

If you want it under the counter, and don't want to bend down, then yes you want a drawer type. The other option is to put it above the counter on a shelf

Just checking out cost on the microwave drawers and it's such a huge difference between a regular microwave. Not sure if we want to spend so much more for it.

It is definitely more. Don't look at any except Sharp since all the "brands" are made by Sharp. So don't pay for a label. I had one for 6 years in my condo and loved it. I'm putting in a new one in my house we're building.

I have had a MW drawer since early 2008 and use it several time a day every day. I have had no problems with it. In fact, with one exception, it has outlasted all my "cheaper" countertop MWs by 4 years or more...so factor that in when you do a cost benefit analysis.

The one that lasted the longest was a big Montgomery Ward's MW Convection Oven I bought in the mid-80s -- it lasted around 10 years.

The one that lasted the least amount of time was a Panasonic (about 2 years).

Sharp and Amana lasted about 4 or 5 years each.

Note that I did not buy cheap countertop MWs b/c I happen to like the bells & whistles -- I use them all the time. My countertop models cost $250 to $300, I think. (It's been over 10 years now since I bought the last one, so they might have cost less...I just don't know for certain.)

My 30" MW Drawer cost $800. So if the MW Drawer lasts another 4 years or so, I will have "broken even" with 3 countertop models at $300 lasting approx 5 years each. After that, I'm ahead of the game!

The 24" MW drawers cost less than 30" and are the same size, so don't get a 30" model.

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If the MW drawer is a budget-buster, then I suggest a countertop model installed above the counter (hanging from the upper cabinet) b/w the range and Laundry Room wall. However, you will probably have to move the range toward the sink another 6 to 9 inches to accommodate it. With the exception of, I think Bosch, all countertop MWs open with the hinge on the left, so this is the best location.

[There is one that opens like an oven, but I don't know for certain that it's a Bosch nor am I certain it's a countertop model -- it might be designed to be installed as a built-in, which will then make it more expensive. The brand name may also make it more expensive...]

Make sure the interior of the alcove for the MW is finished to match the exterior of the cabinets. That will add to the cost, but it will probably still be less than a MW drawer.