I am determined to get that process started this summer for next year, get some dark plastic down and some Roundup. My only catch is finding someone to till it up when it's ready, since I can't do it myself. And someone to bring in the concrete blocks to surround it with. And how to pud down Roundup while I have live plants growing in the same area that I do NOT want to Roundup.

LCDollar, There's no easy way to get rid of bermuda and build a raised bed garden on top of that spot all in the spring time. I agree it would have been better to kill off the bermuda last summer and then solarize the soil from then until now to keep the bermuda from rebounding. Most people don't think or work that far ahead though.

Rototilling now just chops up the stolons into a million pieces that each will resprout into a new plant, and most new gardeners are impatient and won't spend the time to very carefully rake out and pick out every little piece of bermuda grass stolon the tiller created. At least they won't be patient and do that their first year. Sure, they'll rake out the big pieces but ignore the tiny ones. I see it all the time, right here in our own little neighborhood. Then they build the raised bed, or even plant at grade level in, let's say....March and April. They tend to ignore tiny new bermuda grass sprouts that appear, and by June, they have a big garden full of bermuda grass with veggies growing in the midst of it. In our neighborhood it doesn't stop there. They get frustrated with the bermuda grass and give up trying to pull it out. (Of course, they should have been digging it out as soon as it reappeared, but what fun is that?) So, they abandon the garden and by August they have a garden full of dead and dying vegetables, tall bermuda grass sending out runners and going every which way, and Johnson grass that is head-high or taller.

The sad thing is that most people will do the very same thing the next year. They complain they had to abandon the garden because the grass made it too snakey to go into even to harvest, but then they repeat the same mistake the next year, and every year thereafter. Only a few will learn from their mistake and work to get rid of all that bermuda before planting and then also work to keep it out. I've watched this happen in some gardens we drive by ever since 1999. It makes you wonder why, if they want a garden, they inevitably let the grass take it back every single year. Sometimes it is because people are ambitious and rototill a bigger plot of land than they can maintain with the time they have available, but then when they do it year after year, I start to wonder why they bother to try if they aren't going to follow through.

I feel like if I don't stay on top of the bermuda grass and Johnson grass they'd creep back into the garden and take it back in no time at all. I always start in late Winter or early Spring near the fenceline, seeking out and digging out any grass that's growing through the fence and attempting to invade the garden. It is about the least fun thing on earth to do, but the alternative is that the grass wins.

I like putting down cardboard, but in wet years it will decompose pretty quickly so, depending on the depth of the soil they placed on top of the cardboard, they still can have bermuda grass and other pernicious weeds pop up in their raised beds. If they put 10 or 12" of soil on top of the cardboard, maybe the bermuda doesn't make it back into the bed, but if they put 4 or 6" of soil in there, then there's a good chance the bermuda comes back.

All that works is to diligently remove it whenever it evades...day in, day out, month after month, year after year. The stuff is relentless.

The ones that make me laugh are the people who think they will have carefully controlled bermuda grass pathways in between their raised beds. I wish them luck with that! We all know that the bermuda grass isn't going to stay where they want it to stay. Some times folks won't listen, though, and just have to learn for themselves.

Rebecca, Clearly you need to hire a gardener! I wish I had one. I'd let him or her do all the dirty work and I'd do all the fun stuff, but since we are not wealthy, we are our own gardeners.

There are ways to apply Roundup without having it drift, though I've never used them since I don't use herbicides. I see them in garden catalogs all the time. Here's one type of applicator with a little cup around the nozzle to reduce drift and overspray:

Herbicide Applicator

There's other ones that have a roller similar to a paint roller than allow you to roll on the herbicide:

Herbicide Roller Applicator

And, now there is a Round-up Precision Gel that is in a sort of large, flat tube (looks kinda like a large stick deodorant bottle) that you squeeze on to the target plant while not applying it to desirable plants nearby. I have no idea if it works, but I saw it on store shelves last year. I can see where it might work for precision placement to spot kill random weeds, but I cannot imagine having the patience to apply it to a large area.

Bermuda grass and its invasiveness are a classic example of someone with good intentions bringing in a foreign plant thinking it will be good and useful, and having no idea what horror they have unleashed on the gardening world. Kudzu is another great example of this. I wonder if kuduz would crowd out/shade out bermuda....not that I'd ever plant kudzu, but it might be fun to watch the two of them battle over territory.

Dawn

Maybe the kudzu and bermuda will end up killing each other, and then we don't have to worry about either one anymore?

I'm going to look for those Roundup products. But, I bet I can do it more cost effectively by buying a jug of Roundup, a paint roller, and a disposable paint tray. At least, better cost for a larger area. Then I can put the dark plastic down for the rest of the summer. Hmm. Then I'd just have to find someone to till up the space next spring.

Cattle ranchers like bermuda. At least the one I worked for did. He seeded a pasture with it. I was kind of incredulous, but i suppose it is cheap, and we know how quickly it spreads.

The only thing we use round up on is poison ivy. I would much prefer a jell to a spray. Unfortunately the tree in the yard next door is covered in it, so nothing we do will actually end it. I fear some day they will figure it out and spray the tree. That will be the day the wind is blowing toward my garden.

Dawn, I hate glyphosates. But until they come up with a safe substitute (which won't happen in our lifetimes), I know the only option is to dig by hand. But, if the glyphosate works it's way out of the soil within a few months, then the plot would (theoretically) be safe to plant in the next year, correct? I already have autoimmune disease, and my aunt had her first MS symptoms a few months after using Roundup on a huge poison ivy/oak/sumac plot. It seems the effort to feed people economically doesn't include the need to feed them safely.

Rebecca I dont know if we will ever fully comprehend the damage some chemicals have done to us as Americans. I too suffer many issues and know chemicals are part of it because I am hypersensitive to them. I use tiny amounts of bleach in the home and neem oil rarely in the garden, and thats all. I dont want to have the stuff on the property.. It does make gardening extremely challenging. And downright frustrating some times. When weeds grass etc take over an area I could just scream but somehow I keep pulling and hauling them off. Someday I will have help here and will get this all caught up.

I use the heck out of Round Up to control weeds around the house. Will continue to do so, I'm not the least bit scared of it.

Ya know folks, at what point will everyone be scared of their own shadow ? We've become a nation of scared fearful people.

I have no doubt that Round Up has been studied intensely, if there was any chance it was harmful , it would not be on the market or would be heavily controlled. And there are many people looking for any good reason to take it off the market because it was invented by the hated Monsanto.

It is interesting that autism, food allergies, celiac/gluten intolerance, and asthma are so much more common now. In fact, it's normal almost. It only seems to be getting worse. I don't remember many children having these issues when I was little. Now, every other child has something.

Cancer and Parkinson are rampant out here under the crop dusters.

I'm certainly not scared of my own shadow, but I'm smart enough not to stare into the sun that causes it. I keep glyphosate around, but I rarely use it. In fact, the only time I do is when there doesn't appear to be a better solution and it's never anywhere close to my food source.

As to whether or not it's as harmful as many claim, only time will tell? My question do we really want to take that chance?

One only has to look at some of the other chemicals that are approved by the EPA, based on studies. Too many of us have seen the results of some of the persistent herbicides to put much trust in those studies! I still have pictures of that little bit of fun.

I'm not a big Monsanto hater. I do not like their methods, but then I have to add DOW and DuPont, right in there with them.

I almost never use Roundup, for reasons Dawn mentioned. It is reserved for poison ivy.

My choice for suppressing Bermuda is shade. I think, if I were planning a raised bed for next year, I'd corn, cowpeas and rampant squash in the spot this year. I'd aim to grow a thick, shady jungle there. Then, in the late fall, I'd hit the spot with my trusty spading fork, pulling out the Bermuda roots, as much as possible, before putting in the raised bed. After that, I'd mulch the raised bed like crazy, just to make it easier to pull the Bermuda, which invariable returns.

George

What about Johnson grass?

I make exceptions on use of glyphosate when it comes to johnson grass! I typically use a brush and 'paint' the plant with it. Seems to knock it back fairly well. Certainly as well as any method I've tried! I know I've dug and chased the roots until I thought I heard what sounded like oriental conversation and it still came back! May have just been the heat, tho?

Round Up has been available for use for at least 35 years, that's how long I've used it, I'm not gonna Google it to find out exactly. But that's plenty long enough time for attorneys to fund studies, if not the FDA to waste billions , to find it harmful.

There's risk in life. There's somebody today, who died in a car accident on the way to work, somewhere. You measure the risk and you measure the reward , and Round Up makes my life much better , rather than spend my time on a hot summer day diggin out weeds.

And not to mention how many other scams are out there , to scare the public, like GMO. I can't believe how far that dog has hunted. CBS Sunday Morning blew that hoax away entirely, but it persists.

If I ever were to use Roundup, maybe it would be to wipe out some Johnson grass. However, since the use of Roundup Ready crops became widespread, some states already have documented the development of glyphosate-resistant Johnson grass. I think the first time I became aware of that, the state in question was Arkansas.

I am not afraid of any chemical, but I choose to live and garden without them as much as I possibly can. I survived cancer the first year after we moved here. Since then, I have made a concerted effort to avoid chemicals as much as possible in all aspects of my life. People are free to use whatever they chose, but I just chose not to use those sorts of things myself.

We are surrounded here by families who've lived, farmed, ranched and gardened here for generations. Cancer rates, especially among the men, seem very high and quite a few of them and their friends blame it on heavy chemical use for decades. One of them kept telling me "they told us to use this stuff, they told us it would be okay". What can you say to a dying man who feels like he listened to his local Ag Ext agents and followed their advice and now felt betrayed? I'm not blaming his or anyone's death strictly on chemical use, but they certainly did feel that way.

What bothers me about testing is that they test individual chemicals alone, and not in combination with other chemicals. While any one of them may seem safe in the type of testing that is done, no one studies what they do when combined.

There's also a huge revolving door between the government agencies that regulate these products and the top executives that produce them. That makes me uncomfortable and it absolutely does cause me to question if the studies are legit.

I ignore all nutritional and gardening advice from our U.S. governement. They were wrong about the role of fat in our diets despite the heavy emphasis for decades on telling us to eat High Carb, Low-fat diets. What happened? Americans became obese and diabetes and other illnesses skyrocketed during the exact time that the regulatory agencies and medical establishment were telling us to eat low fat, high carb. Now, they admit they were wrong. Now they say we should be eating high fat (using what they deem as the right fats) and low carb/low sugar. I am glad they are correcting their earlier incorrect policies and advice, but I think it may be too late for too many people who put their faith in bad nutritional advice. For decades, they've pushed statins. Now the doctors are saying "Never mind" and taking a lot of people off of them. One reason why? Mortality studies for deaths of all causes show higher death rates among people taking statins, not lower death rates. Some doctors believe the use of statins is implicated in the skyrocketing Alzheimer's rates. You see so much contradicting info coming from all our government agencies that it gets to where you don't know what to believe. So, I just ignore all the crap they say and try to eat in the most healthy, most natural way possible. It works for me. I use the same philosophy in gardening. The whole world can use glyphosate as much as it wants, but that still won't make me use it.

And here's the problem I have

" Cancer rates, especially among the men, seem very high "

This can be studied scientifically and exactly quantified.

All recognized research is peer reviewed, there's a lot of educated eyes looking at every study done, no matter whether its done by industry, government, or on a college campus.

But still, I think its wise to be skeptical of studies , and not accept everything on its face. But it depends upon the area being studied. I generally trust most medical research. But I'm even more skeptical of alarmists or activists, and am very cynical of their motives.

Here's the piece from CBS Sunday Morning on GMO's, and in this case, I think CBS has done a good job of getting to the truth. This is an area that ya don't have to be trained in advance sciences, to get your mind around.

Digging for seeds of truth in GMO debate

I lost an extended family member a couple years ago to an aggressive, incurable form of brain cancer. He was a rancher, and used the pesticides the company he was farming for (wheat mainly) told him to use. There has been a rash of the same kind of brain tumor, as well as other types of cancer, among ranchers in north central Oklahoma. My grandfather, also a rancher in north central Oklahoma, passed in 1987 of the same type of brain tumor that the other family member had. He stopped farming in 1970. Now, I am no researcher, but I'd think that anyone with eyes could see that correlation. I don't know what chemicals they're using, though. I wish I did. My mom has told me to use what I need to use on her squash plants this year to prevent the vine borers and get her squash. I'll limit it to what I absolutely have to do, but she is not convinced that those pesticides will end up in the squash she eats. She just warned me to wear gloves, a mask, and make sure I'm upwind when I apply it.

I followed the high carb/low fat diet religiously for a long time. I did nothing but get bigger and less healthy. It destroyed my metabolism, and my body. I ended up having weight loss surgery a couple years ago, because it was my last option. I don't regret the surgery at all, but I regret that I trusted the experts in the field at that time. Now I eat a little of everything. But I'll live with the damage that diet caused for the rest of my life, and it'll always be a struggle to maintain a reasonable weight.

There is so much they don't know when they make a declaration that something is safe or the best thing to do, because we don't know what we need to know yet to know that it's not safe.

If I worked with chemicals of any kind, no matter what the chemical, I would do everything in my power to protect myself ..... no matter how much science knows about the chemical. I have a friend who refinished hardwood floors, worked with lacquers daily. Me , I would find another line of work.

But an occasional small amount of exposure to glyphosate doesn't concern me , at all. And it breaks down on plants and in the soil, rapidly. And the scientific community can not agree its a carcinogen. There's probably any number of other substances that will kill me before that does. I really hope they don't find any carcinogens in Coke Zero, or I'm a sure goner before my time. And heck, I smoked cigarettes for 20 years before quitting in 1998, if anything is gonna get me, that will.

A whole lot of this gets blown out of proportion by activists and alarmists. I read one activist claim that farmers spray their GMO crops with glyphosate within days of harvest. Really? Come on now, why would a farmer do that ? That makes no sense at all, not from any perspective, but especially a cost perspective. If he's that close to harvest, why put more money into the crop ?

I wasn't gonna jump in on this, but that last comment about spraying glyphosate before harvest is actually very accurate. It is a very common practice and not just on GMO crops. Farmers use it as a drying agent. They spray it close to harvest (7-10 days?) to speed up the dry time, and allow early harvesting. Look up glyphosate as drying agent.

amunk01, the people selling fear, have sold you on this.

First , I did what you said to do, and I found a plethora of results from dubious sites selling the fear. I don't trust any of it.

And Second, I found this at Snopes

Snopes debunks using herbicide as drying agent, say no actual wheat farmers have ever heard of anyone doing this

The number of people selling fear, has mulitplied with this great invention of the internet. IDK, maybe they want to drive traffic to their site to increase ad revenue. Evidently its good business, because these people flourish.

Lets go down the list

GMO , and btw, CBS edited out a segment of their piece on GMO's, where they discredited the organization represented by the so called woman scientist they interviewed. It was in the piece originally aired.

And when the science community says GMO safe, they move the goal posts to glyphosate. This is common strategy for the fear sellers, they scream about an issue and when discredit, they morph the issue into another issue.

Organic farming, which now the organic farming business is twice the size of Monsanto, that has people driving across town to over pay at Whole Foods.

And has also led to the near destruction of the restaurant chain Chipotles, when the chain tried to be organic with locally sourced food, and their customers almost died from e-coli.

Then lets go to other areas ....

like that evil FRACKING

or pipelines

Oil/gas industry can't do anything without having to beat down the fear sellers.

They have the public scared of doing anything, we have to study everything 10X's over before anything can get done. This can't continue.

Then there's the anti vaccine crowd, led by Robert Kennedy Jr, who is also opposed to FRACKING , whose law firm currently has several suits filed against Monsanto over glyphosate , and is opposed to vaccinating our children, when he's not out preaching about global warming. This fear selling , must be good business for his law firm.

The internet has been the greatest invention in my lifetime, its added so much to our lives ............ but there's a downside, and its made the proliferation of rumor and flat out lies from fear sellers, much easier.

I see so much fear, this is not what the last two lines of our National Anthem , speak to .....

Land of the free, and home of the brave.

We are not that any more, and we've forgotten what FDR said at his first inauguration , " We have nothing to fear, but fear itself "

So, good old common horse sense is fear?

That (common horse sense) is how many of us view our position on how we garden and how we impact our surroundings. It's our choice and we have the right to make that choice based on what we see as data from credible sources. I scrutinize any source and I'm especially watchful when that source has an agenda. MSM, big corporations and the government all have an agenda. Even some of the often quoted fact checkers have been caught changing to 'facts' to suit themselves.

Is this fear? No using common sense and questioning sources is not fear!

Our entire nation was formed by individuals who weren't willing to sit on their laurels and become sheeple.

Many of us will be long gone before we really know the full impact of all the chemicals being used in and around our food source. We can carry on and possibly live out our lives and never have to worry about it or we can look at some of the indicators and apply common sense. As of 2012 there have been 29 (if my math is correct?) weeds worldwide that have become glyphosate resistant. The tendency is to come up with and apply stronger chemicals to control those weeds. So, what happens when those or other weeds become resistant? Yes the cycle continues, until, well who knows where it ends?

Actually, I do think some the northern states and Canada use that drying practice for wheat. AND...I don't always trust what people admit to. However, where we live, right now, we have a LOT of food freedom to eat what and how we want. We can garden how we want. We can use or not use chemicals. We all have to search our souls and decide what we believe to be the best for us and those we feed. So...carry on with what you feel/think is best for your garden and your family. I'm not judging anyone...other than people who are careless and may cause harm to someones else's garden. Even if they are trying to be helpful by spraying your fence line.

Yes , common sense that is not supported by data, fact, knowledge or research = irrational fear.

And yes, there are small parts of North and South Dakota who do use glyphosate for preharvest, I've discovered that. But its unique to that area a very small amount of US wheat production and its only done there due to climate and variety of wheat. And the farmers readily acknowledge they do this and its heavily regulated by the EPA. Why smear the vast majority of wheat farmers nationally ?

So there's no reason for Oklahoma or Kansas farmers ( or anywhere else ) to " not admit " to using this preharvesting practice, when its not applicable to their farms.

People gonna believe what they want to believe. Facts and data can be presented to counter illogical fear, but if they're not believed, then its game over..... there's no need going further.

When glyphosate is showing up in the blood and urine tests of virtually 100% of the people being tested for it, I consider that a problem. These are regular, normal people, not folks who work in agriculture and use the stuff. So, my choice, made out of common sense and not fear, is that I won't use the stuff. I don't care if every other person in the state of Oklahoma is using it, I'm still not. That's not fear. That's making a choice to avoid a chemical that does not belong in our bodies. Now, I'm done with this conversation. People feel the way they feel, and none of us is going to change anyone else's mind. People are free to do as they choose. That's what is great about this country.

Harmless chemical, and we probably have far worse in our bodies.

May 16, 2016

U.N. experts find weed killer glyphosate unlikely to cause cancer

Does Monsanto’s Roundup Herbicide Cause Cancer or Not? The Controversy, Explained

Yes, I'm tickled to be gardening without chemicals . . . and avoid nearly all commercially prepared food products with additives. Started years ago because deer meat and garden products were cheaper. Now, I just don't need any more chemicals around than already are. I buy very few cleaning products, cheaper to make my own. Trying to keep it simple.

The urine tests Dawn speaks of , were conducted by an activist group called The Detox Project.

I'm not contesting their findings. And I'm still in process of trying to find out more about this group and what their agenda might be.

But ..........

If Monsanto conducted a 1,000 urine tests, and they could not find any glyphosate in any of them .............. nobody would believe it, including me.

Why does the findings of the activist group reprensent the absolute truth ? That they are not fudging nor presenting these findings in the worse possible context ?

This amazes me how these environmental groups, seem to escape scrutiny. No matter how way out there, they may get. They just sell the fear and the public buys it, no questions asked.

Its just necessary for me when I cant use regular toothpaste, deo, shampoo, etc without a reaction to stay away from all chemicals fragrances etc and thankfully I am still free to choose, not at all misinformed or out of fear.

Kim

My main concern about using herbicides, pesticides isn't so much about what adverse effects they could have on me, but rather what effects could they have on beneficial insects, birds, critters. If they kill weeds, what could they do to a bee or butterfly? If they kill ticks and fleas, what could they do to bees or butterflies. I don't want chemicals interfering with what good things are free to us because of nature. I've never been comfortable with weed killers or insecticides. To ME, it has been common sense. YES, we do put down tick and flea killers in the yard and I HATE it. But really, that's as far as I'm willing to go. In terms of insecticides, bugs DO your worst. (From the movie, Count of Monte Cristo--lol). Nope, not interested. Having said that, not at all conflicted about blowing away squirrels or possums or coons or groundhogs or coyotes when they intrude. . . life's not fair, but at least they have a fighting chance. But chemicals, nah. Roundup. If it kills all veggie life magically. . . to me, that's not a good thing to have in MY yard. I am scatterbrained and can't remember what day it is, but I AM pretty smart. Don't try to push my views on anyone else, but I know for a certainty that I don't want it near MY yard.