Mineral / nutrient deficiency & secret to health & antifungal trace e
The other 2 threads on mineral/nutrient deficiencies got too long, but I'll post the links for future references:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3954615/mineral-deficiency-symptoms-in-roses?n=75
Vaporvac asked me how much sulfate of potash to give per rose bush for blooming. For a large bush, I give them 1 tablespoon per 2 gallon of water to induce blooming. For a small bush, I give 1/2 tablespoon diluted in 2 gallons of water.
Sulfate of potash is best used with dolomitic lime (has calcium/magnesium). But if your soil is high in calcium, then skip dolomitic lime. My soil is high in magnesium, so I use gypsum (calcium sulfate) along with sulfate of potash.
How to tell if your soil has enough calcium? If you have solid octopus canes or basal breaks ... that's plenty of calcium. How to tell if your soil has enough magnesium? If your soil sticks together be it wet or dry .. magnesium is the "glue" that holds soil together.
According to U. of CA, the ratio in rose tissue analysis is nitrogen slightly more than potassium, twice more potassium than calcium, and very small amount of magnesium and phosphorus .. even 1/10 is sufficient.
From my past 5 years of many experiments, I found the secrets to healthy roses:
1) Continuous supply of potassium plus anti-fungal trace-elements (in horse manure, compost, or spirulina). Roses tend to break out in diseases after blooming, due to depletion of potassium & anti-fungal trace elements.
2) Good drainage so roots don't stand long in acidic rain water.
3) Alkaline minerals to neutralize acidic rain water. Pink Peace cut bloom with leaves break out in blackspot within 3 days of soaking in rain-water (pH 5.6), versus healthy in tap water (pH 9). Potassium, calcium, magnesium are alkaline minerals in clay.
4) Balance in nutrients and pH. Too alkaline isn't good either. Below is a pic. of copper deficiency in Veteran's Honor after I gave it high pH Azomite plus high pH pea-gravel water. High pH induces copper deficiency: wilted leaves & leaves curl under. High pH also induces iron and sulfur deficiency (pale young leaves).
Comments (50)
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agostrawchicago z5 thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
Anna
7 years agoRelated Discussions
Minerals in the soil
Comments (33)"If the material you compost is very diverse" Meaning from many different regions, or meaning compost made from different species of plants? Of course, it is a forgone conclusion that most any bought compost is made from plant material that was grown on soils that have less than optimum percent OM. Most compost and manure ultimately goes back to a grass crop, and hayfields tend to be poorly managed. So you are continuing with your consistent position that mineral deficiency can be corrected by growing and composting plant matter grown on soil with that same deficiency. As a general concept, this cannot be so. In a few cases there is some evidence that over long periods of time certain "accumulator" plants, very deep-rooted weeds, can partially change a surface deficiency. For example, dandelion and burdock grow where calcium is quite low in the top foot of soil. Due to their deep-rooted and perennial habit, they probably must bring up into their tissues at least tiny amounts of Ca that has leached into the denser subsoil or hardpan below. So those types of plants and to some extent probably shrubs and trees as well recover a small part of what is lost to leaching and then release it slowly through decay. Assuredly that is why a freshly converted piece of heavily grown-over land produces well for a few years. This concept does not apply to a heavily-cropped low-level monoculture like a typical hayfield or grain field....See MoreHealth and Beauty of Norway Spruce Trees--a Hypothesis
Comments (29)spedigrees: Limestone varies in magnesium content. If you go to your local agricultural store--I am not sure what you have up there--and ask for “high mag limestone“--crushed or pulverized--they should be able to direct you. The analysis is always posted on the bag. Dolomitic limestone is generally “high-mag,” but perhaps other types of limestone have a high magnesium content. Our soils here in the northern Shenandoah Valley are very high in magnesium, and high mag limestone underlies a good portion of our soils, and high mag limestone is readily available. And, almost all the NS in this area look very nice, in spite of our hot, dry climate. As for soil acidity--that should not be a problem for Norway spruce, unless the soil is extremely acidic, maybe in the low 4’s. At my timberland, where the soils are a bit below 5, Norway spruce does very well. I am not sure what an optimum pH would be, and it would probably vary with soil type. Maybe somewhere in the 5.5 range is "safe." As for magnesium for Norway spruce--this has been fairly well documented. I titled my original post “a hypothesis,” but there is substantial evidence. A site factors study done at SUNY Syracuse some years ago now, noted that “at least 75 kg per hectare” is needed for good NS growth. Studies in Europe, where there has been extensive decline in NS forests, has shown that the acid rain causes a reduction in the availability of magnesium, and supplementing magnesium often solves the problem. And, I have made some personal observations--not scientific, and without all the facts--that magnesium supplementation can make a dramatic difference. But, the main effect of magnesium may not be in height growth, but in the fullness, density, and lushness of the foliage. I have seen many poor looking, thin foliaged NS trees growing reasonably fast in height. Also, the thin foliage on some Norway spruce trees has causes other than a lack of an optimum supply of magnesium. And, I know, some of that is genetic, and not correctable. As for your experiment: Yes, 5 years should be long enough to show some results, but no sooner. The limestone has to dissolve into the soil, get down to the roots, and, because NS hold their needles for several years, the "thickening" of the foliage may not be vis1ble for several years. BUT, and this is a big "but," the effect may not really show up on very young trees. It may help the growth rate, but as for foliage density, that is never really noticeable until trees are somewhat older and larger--maybe not until they are 20 feet tall or more will any difference be really clear. As for the growth rate: white pine usually starts growing faster than NS. How old are your trees? How tall? NS trees don't begin to grow fast until they are about 4.5 feet high, and that could be only after 6 to 8 years. At that point, they should "take off." On the best soils, and in the right climate, an average of 28 inches is possible, with some years the new shoots elongating up to 4 feet or more. But growth averaging 20 to 24 inches is good for many sites. Norway spruce and white pine, assuming equally good strains, should grow equally well over the first 50 years. The white pine up to about 18 years should outgrow the NS, but after that NS should catch up a bit. After 50 years NS should outgrow the white pine for some years. SUNY Syracuse did a growth curves study for NS, and found that for the first 60 years--after the trees reach 4.5 feet in height, there is no "curve" as such, but a straight line. White pine growth curves bend sharply over to the right after the first 18 years or so, and at 50 years the growth averages about 1 foot, while at the same age, NS trees can still be growing 28 inches per year. But this rate does begin to decline not too long after the 60-year mark. On the best sites both should eventually make 150 feet or more in forest stands. Open grown NS should make 120 feet or more on better sites. As for the blue spruce and magnesium, I really don't know. Tom may be right about this. --spruce...See MoreTrace elements for blooming and antifungal agents against diseases
Comments (21)http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071706005190 Trace and nutrient elements in manure, dung and compost samples in Austria Although the high amounts of K and P were beneficial, there were some high concentrations of Na in biogas residues and pig manures. Intense additions of Cu, Zn, and Se are reflected in high loads in the respective excrements, as Austria is a low Se area. Composts and sewage sludges were higher in Al and lithophilic trace elements than were the excrements ... Factor analysis traced phosphates as the main source of Cd. Cr in processed matrices was significantly higher, and abrasion from tools should be considered in future investigations" *** From Straw: antifungal trace elements, listed in the order of most potent: Silver, Mercury, Copper Cu, Cadmium Cd, Chromium Cr, Nickel, Lead, Cobalt, Zinc Zn, Iron, and lastly calcium. Selenium is also a strong anti-fungal agent. My personal experience for the past 6 years: horse manure and chicken manure together works better than applying lime before acidic rain. Have really bad experience testing Encap compost on pots, due to the quick lime. Aluminum is toxic to plants (Milorganite sewage sludge was bad for both my lawn and roses), and I'm glad that chicken manure is high in zinc, copper, and boron. http://www.ontariosoilcrop.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/V2Gen1.pdf "Zinc and Copper are included in monograstric (swine and poultry) diets at much higher levels than minimum requirement for "normal" performance since when fed at higher levels they promote growth. Horse manure samples in the study were particularly high in chromium, nickel, aluminum and iron. The source of nickel and chromium is not clear, but race harness bits used in the industry are often nickel or chrome plated and may have contributed to the concentration of these two metals. " I also checked for trace elements in oyster shell lime: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/18465435_Trace_Metals_in_Oyster_Shells " Measurements using atomic absorption spectrometry have established the prescence of Pb, Hg, Cd, Zn, Cu, and Cr in shells of the oyster Crassostrea virginica in amounts considerably higher than their concentration in sea water." BOS LIME is made from Ocean Shell, (Bluff Oyster Shell / Kina Shell). Trace elements and micro minerals such as Potassium Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Colbalt, Zinc Oxide ." http://www.boslime.co.nz/pages/products_001.html...See MorePre-winter journal: roses' and our health & observation & wish-list
Comments (58)Cup_shaped roses is Niels in Denmark. He grows 400+ roses, zone 5b, acidic clay: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1719734/lifespan-of-a-grafted-rose cupshaped_roses(6) In my experience bareroot (grafted) modern roses .., have a few years where they look really great ...then they seem to decline - almost grow backwards - and I end up replacing them with new plants. It may however be a matter of rootstocks? Up until the 1980es - R. Canina species was most often used as rootstocks over here - (Rose Canina Pfanders in Germany - Rosa Canina Laxa in milder/warmer areas - like France and England - but most use R. Multiflora today.cupshaped_roses(6) **** In the above thread, Roseseek (Kim Rupert) reported Grafted-on-Dr.Huey can survive 30 years in dry California. Also Seil in sandy soil, zone 6a, reported grafted-on-Dr.Huey being 50 years old in her mother's garden. Nearby alkaline clay rose-park, zone 5a: they replace their Austins (grafted on Dr.Huey) every 2 to 4 years. Their longest grafted-rose is Double Delight, more than 5 years old. Dr.Huey rootstock, being drought-tolerant, can't handle soaking wet clay that turns into freezing ice in zone 5a winter. But grafted-on-Dr. Huey lives long in dry-climate like California, or in loamy/sandy soil like Seil's in Michigan. From Heirloom roses: "The place where the bud has been added, called the crown or bud-union, is a weak area on the plant. A hard, freezing winter can easily damage the crown, leaving only the rootstock to grow. " trospero(8) Paul Barden This is why I despise 'Dr. Huey' as a rootstock. You can be guaranteed that at some point in the life of the rose, 'Dr. Huey' will send up suckers that you will never, ever be able to stop. This is just what it does. The joke around here is that it is everybody's favorite rose because in May, there is no other rose you will see more blooming plants of than 'Dr. Huey' trospero(8) **** Agree with Paul Barden on Dr. Huey. In my Chicagoland, all the neighbors' roses which are grafted on Dr.Huey: either they die, or roostock take-over and become 10 feet tall rambling-eye-sores. For that reason, I post-pone getting some Austins until they are offered as own-root. bigtruckerdave(7 NC)April 7, 2013: Today I found enormous suckers growing about 3 feet from where I removed 2 Alba Maximas in the spring of 2012. And they were grafted on Dr Huey. jerijen(Zone 10) I haven't had Dr. Huey sucker in quite that manner -- but I have seen Dr. Huey suckers pop up about 6 ins. out from the bud union. What I HAVE had sucker that far away from the plant is Multiflora rootstock. Those ALL suckered rampantly here -- http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1621052/dr-huey-rootstock?n=7...See Morestrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoAnna: I use Hawaii Spirulina and put about 10 tablets in a 32-gallon garbage-can of rain-water. For a human, the dose is 4 tablets per day, but roses are much smaller. A human weighs about 120 lbs., so 4 tablets diluted in water should feed many roses. That stuff is potent, a few tablets is enough to make the water bright purple.
I like how healthy leaves look with Spirulina, and Filly in Florida agreed when she tested on her roses. I posted on the many anti-fungal trace elements in spirulina in the "Questions on nutrient def." thread.
I also have Kelp tablets for human, but it tasted salty compared to Spirulina. Another Amazon customer testified that Spirulina was better for her flowers than Kelp. Below is the major ingredients with 230% vitamin A (essential for healthy skin in human) .. so that translate to healthy tissue in plants too. Plus 41% chromium (strong anti-fungal & sugar metabolism). 39% iron and 20% manganese, and 94% vitamin K. Click on the pic. and it'll enlarge:
Amazon sells it for $19.40 per 400 tablet, so each tablet costs 5 cents. It's worth it for the anti-fungal trace-elements https://www.amazon.com/Nutrex-Hawaii-Hawaiian-Spirulina-400-tablet/dp/B0039ITKSI/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1472168912&sr=8-3&keywords=hawaiian%2Bspirulina
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoAnna: All my roses' foliage go down-hill after blooming, except for the ones with continuous supply of potassium/calcium/trace elements such as thick layer of alkaline clay on top to neutralize acidic rain.
In hot summer over 90 F I used tiny doses of sulfate of potash/gypsum daily with my alkaline tap pH over 9 .. roses' leaves were still healthy after blooming.
Roses use up a HUGE amount of potassium plus 1/2 calcium for blooming. There's potassium depletion after blooming. Your pic. is potassium deficiency: yellow outer edge, plus brown spots. When the soil is dry, less potassium is available. Potassium is essential for water osmosis in hot weather.
When the soil is compact (due to tap-water' high pH), less potassium is available. Gypsum does loosen up the soil, so does sulfate of potash with its sulfur.
Jobes' SOLUBLE Organic Fertilizer NPK 5-2-3 has Kelp plus an aggressive species of bacteria to break down organic matter. When that bacteria breaks down the hardened soil, it makes fluffy humus. Roots can access potassium and water better when soil is fluffy.
If you put a straw into hard & compact mud, how much water can you draw up? Very little. But if you put a straw into loose particles soaked in water, water can be drawn up easily. If water is slow to pass through a pot, it means roots can't access water fast enough due to compact soil.
Tap water compacts and hardens soil through calcium hydroxide which glues up soil, Prefern (Ph.D. in physical chemistry sent me a research paper).
My most dark-green foliage in pots was with that special bacteria in Jobes' fertilizer NPK 5-2-3, sold for $5 and lasts through 4 months for 20+ roses.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoJobes' SOLUBLE fertilizer contains billions of 'Archaea', the beneficial microorganisms that aggressively break down organic materials. I use that along with alfalfa pellets to break down the pellets faster. No rose-slugs infestation like previous years with too much molasses.
I also use sulfate of potash/gypsum/ tiny amount of molasses in between. Own-root can't secrete acid as well as Dr. Huey, but Jobes' SOLUBLE is acidic so it helps leaves to be dark-green:
Below is lowest leaves of OWN-ROOT Dee-lish with Jobes' Organic SOLUBLE fertilizer NPK 4-3-2 with soybean, kelp, and sulfate of potash. The red buds next to it belonged to Munstead Wood. The brown stuff is decayed alfalfa pellets.
http://easygardener.com/index.cfm/category/295/water-soluble-all-purpose.cfm
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoBelow is own-root Summer Samba rose, with Jobes granular NPK 2-7-4, also with billions of 'Archaea', the beneficial microorganisms that aggressively break down organic materials. I mixed that granular stuff with my potting soil, and leaves are much darker green.
Other years with other fertilizer "Rose Tone", "Tomato Tone" "Eco-scrap", alfalfa pellets mixed with potting soil, I COULD NOT ACHIEVE DARK-GREEN LEAVES for wimpy own-roots.
Jobes' Organic Tomato granular NPK is 2-7-4. Derived from: Feather Meal, Bone Meal, Composted Poultry, Manure, Sulfate of Potash. Plus Bacteria (CFU's/ lb.) : Contains 12,606 colony forming units (CFU's) of: Arthrobacter Globiformis, Arthrobacter simplex, azotobacter Chroococcum, Azobacter paspali, Azosprillum lipoferum, Strepomyces griseoflavis and Pseudomonas fluorescens.
Picture taken in Oct., after months of watering with tap water pH near 9, but I used sulfate of potash/gypsum to fix. Blooms were cut for the vase.
Here's Summer Samba orange blooms in a vase: Red is Firefighter, Small pinks are Annie L. McDowell.
Bone meal is OK in the planting hole if the pH is neutral to slightly acidic, but can't be broken down in alkaline conditions. Re-post the info. about bone-meal:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2133798/types-of-calcium-for-best-bloom-formation?n=5
Chemical analysis of bone meal showed measurement in ppm (1 milligram per kilogram soil (mg/kg) )
400 iron, 120 magnesium, 50 manganese, 300 sodium, 200 aluminum, 2,000 sulfates, 20 potassium, 100 zinc, and 400 chlorides.
The biggest portions are 23% calcium and 14% phosphorus ... both essential for root growth.
strawchicago z5
7 years ago
Above pic. is yellowish leaves from water-logged & compact & soaking wet soil in my Bohemian Rhapsody. When the water could not go through a pot fast, it will cause manganese (poor drainage). I solved the problem by fertilizing with Jobes' ORGANIC to break down the hardened peaty potting soil .. after 1 month, the water was able to go down the pot faster, and leaves became healthy green.In dry & hot weather, compact soil will produce yellowing of leaves (potassium deficiency), plus brown spots. When the soil is loose, more oxygen to roots, and water can get to roots faster. High pH tap water hardens soil due to calcium hydroxide in tap-water, that's the same stuff used to make concrete.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoBelow is Veteran's Honor with Jobes Soluble, with suffate of potash/gypsum normal healthy leaves. Pic. taken August 10:
Below is Veteran Honor after I'm out of sulfate of potash & out of acidic Jobe's Organic .. and used high pH Azomite plus high pH pea-gravel.
I was testing to see if trace-elements plus high pH can keep roses healthy. NOPE !! Still need potassium. Note the wilted and curled down leaves (copper def. from high pH), plus blackspots (depletion of potassium), plus pale leaves (high pH).
Pic. taken August 20, ten days later, plus tons of acidic rain water (pH 5.6).
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoOwn-root Louise Este got the same high pH Azomite & high pH pea-gravel-water, except I put a filter of alfalfa pellets & cracked corn & grass clippings on top ... those acidic organics neutralized the high pH.
Leaves are always pale since I didn't mix Jobes granular NPK 2-7-4 (with special bacteria to break down soil) : Water can't go down fast due to compact potting soil. Pic. taken August 20. Note the "one-cane-wonder" due to not enough phosphorus (essential for branching).
I should had known better that Azomite is too alkaline, thus lock up trace-minerals. pH of Azomite is around 9, same range as lime. Great Lakes Azomite has 0.1 % salt, 0.2% potassium, 0.5 % magnesium, 1.8 % calcium, and 0.002 % cobalt.
Antifungal trace elements, listed in the order of most potent: Silver, Mercury, Copper, Cadmium, Chromium, Nickel, Lead, Cobalt, Zinc, Iron, and lastly calcium. Azomite has cobalt, but that's way behind copper.
"the blue-green alga Spirulina platensis has high nutritional content, characterized by a 70% protein content and by the presence of minerals, vitamins, amino acids, essential fatty acids.
While some trace elements are considered toxic (i.e. As, Br, Cd,Hg, Pb, Sb), others are considered essential (Cu, Zn) or necessary to human body (Cr, Se). The toxic heavy metal levels fall in the range of normality with no hazard for users."
*** From Straw: As stand for Arsenic, Br for Bromine, Cd for Cadmium (right behind copper in anti-fungal potency), Hg for Mercury (2nd-rank in anti-fungal), Pb for lead (ahead of zinc in anti-fungal), and Sb for Antimony.
Other trace-elements in Spirulina, Cu for copper (blooming & strong anti-fungal), Zn for zinc (vital for plants' health & blooming). Cr for chromium (anti-fungal), and Se for Selenium (anti-cancer and anti-fungal).
If you consider the chemical analysis, spirulina beat Azomite by far.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoVaporvac asked me a good question: how much potassium needed and what frequency? I used 1/2 tablespoon of sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-50 per week, plus 1/2 tablespoon of gypsum.
For hot & dry summer, SOLUBLE sulfate of potash and gypsum work well in neutralizing alkaline tap-water. For wimpy own-roots: SOLUBLE MiracleGro Bloom Booster NPK 10-52-10 at 1/2 dose each week. Ingredients are: Ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate, boric acid, copper sulfate, iron EDTA, manganese EDTA. Potassium phosphate has salt index of 8.4, ammonium phosphate has salt index of 20, boric acid supplies boron, and copper sulfate is a fungicide, plus chelated iron & manganese.
For every watering, I gave it SOLUBLE sulfate of potash & gypsum to lower my tap water at pH near 9. Below is 7-month old Yves-seedling (grown from a rose-seed) fertilized with that approach, since it's a red-rose, it benefits from chelated-iron in the Bloom-Booster NPK 10-52-10 (old formula). It also has granular Jobes NPK 2-7-4 with a variety of bacteria mixed in the potting soil.
The above approach in 2012 was much healthier than my current 2016 for pots. Why? Young own-roots can't do acid-phosphatase as well as older roses. Thus bloom-booster at NPK 10-52-10 at 1/2 dose reduce down to NPK 5-26-5, high in phosphorus (note decent branching). A 5 in chemcial nitrogen is acceptable for salt. A 5 in potassium is good. Tap water can zap this 5 out, but additional potassium is supplied via sulfate of potash/gypsum 3 times a week per watering.
My current 2016 approach is Jobes' Organic NPK 5-2-3 (with kelp), plus sulfate of potash/gypsum watering. Some problems: A potassium of 3 isn't high enough for disease-prevention. The Kelp is high in salt, which isn't good for hot weather. Phosphorus at 2 is too low, so I get "one-cane-wonder", rather than multiple-branching for own-roots that can't acid-phosphatase.
I also tested chemical SOLUBLE MiracleGro for roses NPK of 18-24-16 in 2011 and 2014 on many pots. Ingredients: ammonium phosphate (salt index 20), ammonium sulfate (salt index 88), urea (salt-index 74), copper sulfate, iron, manganese and zinc sulfate. Chemical nitrogen at 18 is too high, too salty, and produced too much growth & leaves, not enough blooms. Fast-released nitrogen attracts pests: aphids, rose slugs, thrips, mites. High salt UP rust and mildew. Phosphorus at 24 is high, and branching was good & bush was full, rather than "one-cane-wonder".
MG soluble for roses NPK 18-24-16 doesn't have boron as in MG Bloom booster. That used to be NPK 10-52-10, now MG Bloom booster new formula is NPK to 15-30-15, more salty chemical nitrogen.
High-phosphorus works for wimpy own-roots which are like tiny alfafa-sprouts, but Dr.Huey-huge woody root doesn't need to get bigger with high-phosphorus, esp. when it's in a pot.
Phosphorus promotes branching both above, and at root-level. But Dr.Huey-rootstock in a pot doesn't have the room to branch out, so it's useless. Also Dr.Huey rootstock is a woody-stick straight down, and it's not a cluster root like petunia or marigolds .. which benefited greatly from soluble phosphorus like chicken manure.
Phosphorus as soluble-fertilizer worked well with wimpy own-roots (like alfalfa sprouts) that's to promote branching of tiny-own-roots, plus branching above to make fuller & round bush. For wimpy own-roots in pots, I prefer Peter's Blossom-fertilizer over MG: less nitrogen thus less salt, and it has magnesium.
MG-bloom-Booster at NPK 15-30-15: 0.02 boron, 0.07 copper, 0.15 iron, 0.05 manganese, and 0.06% zinc.
Peter's-Blossom-Fertilizer at NPK 10-30-20 HAS MORE POTASSIUM, plus 0.5 magnesium, 0.02 boron, 0.05 copper, 0.10 iron, 0.05 manganese, and 0.05% zinc.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoHere's the lazy way for healthy roses in pots:
In 2013 I put equal amount of granular gypsum and sulfate of potash on top. INSIDE the potting soil I mixed Jobes' Organic for tomatoe NPK 2-7-4 with benenficial microbes. See pic. below of Gene Boerner as 1-month growth (bought from RU sale end of June), picture taken end of July, lots of buds which I pinched off for root-growth. Potting soil was MG-moisture control, with slow-released fertilizer NPK 0.21 - 0.11 - 0.16.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoI bought 2 Jude the Obscure from Heirloom Roses, which died over my zone 5a winter. Early summer I got 2 tiny rootings of Jude the Obscure (just a few strands of roots). I put both in a 10-gallon Smart-pot .. that didn't work, the flap flipped over, and dumped water on one Jude, that died from too much rain.
The other Jude struggled in Smart-pot with MG-moisture control potting soil.. that was too wet with heavy rain.
So I took the 2nd rooting out, and put in potting soil mixed with coarse sand and perlite for better drainage, plus punch at least a dozen holes in a Styrofoam pot. Lost some roots during the transfer, so it blackspotted and dropped all leaves. Root-injury, be it from transfer, or too much acid (sulfate or sour organic) .. will result in blackspots.
Roses also blackspot from high pH lime, Azomite, pea-gravel .. that's from copper & zinc less available with high pH. Both are anti-fungal agents.
I topped with alfalfa-pellets and fertilized with Jobe's Organic NPK 4-3-2 (with kelp), plus diluted sulfate of potash/gypsum. Here's the result, pic. taken this August 20:
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoBlood meal, with iron, and NPK 12-0-0 always promote lush & healthy leaves. I use it for my herbs, Italian basil looking good after I moved it. Pic. taken August 20:
Below is 1/4 of a very wide Thai basil bush, very sweet taste .. chemical nitrogen can't compare to blood-meal in producing good-tasting basil.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoSulfate of potash/gypsum combo test on summer phlox: The cluster gets larger, so does each individual flower, and the color is more intense than the phlox in alkaline clay. Both pic. were taken August 20, it gets less than 4 hours of sun.
strawchicago z5
7 years ago
The above pic. shows 2 types of leaves on the same baby Dee-lish bush. The lower pale & cutter-bee damage leaves are grown in Schultz potting soil (deficient in nutrients). It's cheap, but inferior to MG-moisture-control potting soil. The upper healthy leaves plus buds are achieved by topping with high-magnesium clay, plus Jobes SOLUBLE ORGANIC NPK 5-2-3, with soy bean, kelp, rock phosphate, and sulfate of potash. Pic. taken Sept. 4, 2016.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
The above Veteran Honor in cheap Schulz potting soil, some gypsum mixed in. Lowest dark-green leaves were fertilized with Jobes' SOLUBLE ORGANIC. Middle pale leaves (iron deficiency) were fertilized with high pH Azomite and pea-gravel water, which also caused blackspots. Uppermost healthy leaves with buds is fertilized with Jobes' SOLUBLE ORGANIC, plus added sulfate of potash to achieve NPK 5-2-6.CONCLUSION: Potting soil needs additional organic fertilizer mixed in, otherwise it's deficient in nutrients. My favorite is JOBES' granular NPK 2-7-4 for tomato, with bone meal to provide phosphorus and calcium for root-growth.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
The above Wise Portia cluster shows calcium deficiency: less petal-count. Plus droopy leaves. Wise Portia doesn't like acid, so I'll give it dolomitic lime or my alkaline clay mix with gypsum to neutral its sulfur. The deep & vibrant color plus dark-green leaves mean it's at slightly acidic pH, but calcium is lacking. Wise Portia had DOUBLE the number of petals in alkaline condition.As the pH drops, less calcium and potassium available. I gave it plenty of high-potassium red-lava-rock, but calcium is lacking as in less petal-count. The bush is healthy, zero blackspots, since I fixed the drainage. Pic. taken Sept. 4, 2016.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoMost modern hybrid teas are bred for alkaline tap water (pH in the range of 8 to 9). I tested bottled waters with fish-tank litmus papers, and their pH is near 8, versus my tap-water pH near 9 (hard-well water). The town 5 min. from me listed a pH 9 on their website for tap-water.
I saw Intrigue rose, grafted on Dr.Huey, in a pot at Walmart and it's 100% healthy with buds, while their annuals (marigolds, alyssum, petunia) were withering in late August & hot & dry.
But Intrigue rose (on Dr.Huey) was a blackspot fest during spring rain.
Same with Kordes Buxom Beauty, it was 100% healthy with 4 buds in hot & dry (watered with alkaline tap), I almost bought it but backed out due to $20 price tag. A week later with constant acidic rain, it was a black-spot fest, lost 1/2 of its leaves in a pot at HomeDepot .. same with other hybrid-teas.
Thus for hot & dry climate like California, modern hybrid-tea roses like Peace, Pink peace, Oklahoma, Buxom Beauty, Intrigue, Perfume Delight, Double Delight grafted on Dr. Huey are best for alkaline tap with pH over 8.
Houseplants are bred for alkaline tap water. Roses are even more sensitive to acid: roots shrink, and drop all leaves from blackspots. Rain water pH is 5.6. Here's an internet pic. showing how this houseplant shrank as the pH drops
More pic. of acid-rain (pH below 5.6). An excerpt from below link:
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/acidrain.html
" But in areas, such as some of the Rocky Mountains and parts of the northwestern and southeastern United States, where limestone does not naturally occur in the soil, acid rain can harm the environment."
Here's an internet pic. map of acid rain in U.S. I'm west of Chicago, so I'm in the white zone, with rain pH at 4.9. My sisters in California have the actual pH of rain at 5.5, but my sister in CT has a rain-pH of 4.3 ... The map is correct, my sister in CT sent me some rhubarb plants with soil from her garden: it's extremely loose & loamy, and don't stick together like my dolomitic clay.
I had seen acid-rain and snow beat my rock-hard clay into fluff. I used to use vinegar to break up my clay, now I simply spread them out, and the acid in rain water dissolved them into fluffy & loamy soil.
Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agoSulfur and nitrogen are both essential for dark-green healthy leaves, and both are less at pH below 5.6 (rain-water). Calcium & magnesium & phosphorus are less at pH below 5.6. Sulfur is supplied through decayed organics, or sulfate of potash (21% sulfur), or gypsum (17% sulfur).
Note at pH 8, there's plenty of the major nutrients: magnesium, calcium, sulfur, potassium, phosphorus, and nitrogen, which help with healthy leaves. Will post a pic. of my basil with tons of rain, compared to a basil in less rain and pH 8 clay, taken this Sept.
strawchicago z5
7 years agoSome pics. to show how I reverse Veteran Honor from wimpy & pale to DOUBLE IN SIZE plus 3 buds with gypsum application prior to week-long rain. Pic. taken Sept. 13, healthy leaves from plenty of calcium & potassium:
Below wimpy-own-root Louis Este did not get gypsum, and leaves break out in blackspots from leaching of calcium/potassium during week-long rain. Pic. taken Sep. 13. Free calcium, as in gypsum, is a must for wimpy own-roots that aren't mature enough to produce acid to break down alkaline minerals in soil.
Below picture is Thai Basil which gets tons of rain dumped from the over-flow of rain-barrel. It lost leaves plus blackspots, pic. taken Sept. 13:
Below is the 2nd Thai basil, planted under the Roof-overhang, which blocked the rain-water. Pic. taken Sept 13, after week-long rain. Healthy foliage since no minerals were leached out:
Below is Italian Basil, with rock-hard-clay dumped on it to buffer the acidic rain. Note that it keeps all its leaves due to clay on top, which neutralized acidic rain. Pic. taken Sept 13, after week-long rain:
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoVaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
Above is a pic. of copper deficiency from high pH, and I see leaves curl up in own-root Jude the Obscure's pot, right after I watered it with my pH 9 tap-water.
Yes, I fixed my alkaline tap water with sulfate of potash/ calcium sulfate (gypsum) but that wasn't enough. I checked with the web and it takes one to two tablespoon of vinegar per gallon to lower pH 9 tap-water down to rain-water (pH 5.6). Since the weather is hot above 85 F, I play it safe and used 1/2 tablespoon of sulfates per gallon, that wasn't enough.
An excerpt from below link on copper deficiency (from high pH):
http://www.ecochem.com/t_micronutrients.html
Copper is necessary for carbohydrate and nitrogen metabolism and, inadequate copper results in stunting of plants. Copper also is required for lignin synthesis which is needed for cell wall strength and prevention of wilting. Deficiency symptoms of copper are dieback of stems and twigs, yellowing of leaves, stunted growth and pale green leaves that wither easily.
Copper deficiencies are mainly reported on sandy soils which are low in organic matter. Copper uptake decreases as soil pH increases. Increased phosphorus and iron availability in soils decreases copper uptake by plants."
*** from Straw: High pH can wilt the top shoot due to less copper available. I tested reversing the blackspot on Louise Este in a pot, by giving it "pea-gravel" water (pH 9), and the top shoot wilted immediately. But it will rain soon, that copper deficiency will go away.
The best way to balance out high pH tap in hot weather is to top with no-salt & acidic organic like alfalfa (pH 5.8) and cracked corn (pH 4). That slowly releases acid as tap-water passes through it.
strawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agototoro (Aileen): You are right about MG-Bloom Booster (high phosphorus) help own-root with blooming. At acidic pH of rain (5 to 4), much less phosphorus & calcium & magnesium & potassium are available.
At high pH of 8 and above, much less trace elements available (iron, copper, manganese, zinc, boron).
My best blooming in pots & baby-own-roots was with NPK 20-20-20 weekly, plus calcium via alfalfa meal. such as Sonia Rykiel as a gallon-size own-root.
This year organic SOLUBLE NPK less than 5-5-5 has been VERY DISAPPOINTING for my 14 own-roots in pots. Instead of 15 blooms per 1st-year-own-root like Sonia Rykiel in a pot, it's 4 blooms for Veteran's Honor, pathetic !!
What I did right with Sonia Rykiel in a pot in 2012: I mixed alfalfa meal with potting soil .. that acted like sticky clay to retain nutrients. Plus I used chemical NPK 20-20-20 weekly, plus chicken manure. Pots leached out nutrients fast with frequent watering.
Khalid: Your new house with a clay layer on top is fantastic, since clay chelates with Cu (copper). Copper is essential in blooming and is one of the strongest anti-fungal agent. See excerpt from below link:
"The finer-textured mineral soils generally contain the highest amounts of Cu. The lowest concentrations are associated with the organic or peat soils. Availability of Cu is related to soil pH. As soil pH increases, the availability of this nutrient decreases. Copper is not mobile in soils. It is attracted to soil organic matter and clay minerals."
Below is 1st bloom on Sonia Rykiel when it was gallon-size own-root, achieved through weekly chemical NPK 20-20-20, with MG-organic potting soil (has chicken manure) mixed with alfalfa meal (high calcium, plus trace elements of zinc & copper & manganese),
1st-year own-root Sonia was watered with pH 9 tap-water (high calcium). I got 14 blooms like that before I put into the ground.The pH was too high to break down solid minerals, but the wimpy own-root was spoon-fed with liquid-food, so that didn't matter.
See healthy Sonia Rykiel's foliage in a pot as own-root, with soluble NPK 20-20-20 (used at 1/3 dose, three times a week, 1/3 tablespoon per 1 gallon of water). This fertilizer had acid/sulfur to neutralize my high pH 9-tap-water.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.201392
The high & salty nitrogen 20 was OK during spring rain, but that became a problem in hot July with temp. over 90: Sonia broke out in rust, and I had to put that in the ground.
For that reason Amazon Jack's blossom-booster with trace elements at NPK 10-30-20, at 1/2 dose to make it 5-15-10 would be best for hot-weather, if one wants the most blooms for own-root roses in pots, plus fixing tap-water with sulfate of potash/gypsum if one wants even more blooms.
totoro z7b Md
7 years agoAnother update from a different thread on Clotilde Soupert bush after giving calcium, potassium and magnesium. During a week of rain, still no more balling and this time I see pink! Excuse the blurry photo.
strawchicago z5 thanked totoro z7b Mdstrawchicago z5
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agoVaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years agoI know this isn't a rose, but it's next to roses so I wonder what it's telling me about that soil. This is a 1st year peony that looked great most of the summer until we had torrential rains. It hasn't recuperated and that's been almost one month ago.
strawchicago z5
7 years agoVaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agototoro z7b Md
7 years agoVaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years agototoro z7b Md
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoMove the info. from another thread for reference in HMF:
Chicken manure has zinc, copper, and boron.. anti-fungal trace elements for better blooms.
For the cheap chicken manure at NPK 5-3-2, that needs to be mixed with top soil, like Scott's top-soil. I use a face-up garbage lid, mix 1 cup chicken manure with lots of top soil. Thus each rose bush gets 1/2 cup chicken manure, plus 1/4 cup lime (for blackspot-prone), or 1/4 cup of gypsum (for pale roses), plus 1/8 cup of sulfate of potash (Amazon sells that cheap).
The ratio and amount is VERY IMPORTANT. A lady once burned a dozen of her roses by fertilizing monthly with Mill's Magic NPK 6-5-1 (too high nitrogen can burn, so does chicken manure). I follow U. of Davis tissue analysis of best ratio in roses: equal amount of nitrogen to potassium, 1/2 calcium, and much less than 1/4 phosphorus.
The above treatment is done PRIOR to tons of rain: spring time April, heavy rain May & June, and rainy fall. Two applications for a dry year, and 4 times max for rainy years. Another lady killed a few rose bushes with monthly chicken manure. I play it safe, 3 times for my zone 5a short growing season.
During hot & dry summer stop that treatment, and use sulfate of potash & gypsum to fix alkaline-tap-water (equal sulfate of potash & gypsum pre-mix as powder) ... sprinkle less than 1 tablespoon per bush, and hose in at least 3 gallons of tap water.
Signs of over-fertilization: wilting in hot sun, leaves curl down.
too acidic: leaves curl up & thinner, and blackspots.
too alkaline: leaves twisted & crinkled (copper def), pale leaves.
potassium def: zero blooms, smaller blooms, thin & weak stems, and blackspots.
calcium def: less petals in blooms, stunt growth & short bush
nitrogen def: small leaves & pale lowest leaves, and less leaves
I don't follow the above regime for this year: too busy with 12+ roses in pots, plus rooting roses, plus bad hayfever .. quality and health of roses go down.
Here's some pics. to show the result of the above approach. Here's previous years' bouquet entitled Sept. bouquet, with the largest Evelyn bloom, at 4":
Below is previous years' picture entitled "Francis RB frost", stand for Francis Blaise right before frost in Oct. Perfect foliage.
Here's this year, 2016 Sept. 7, Double Delight (grafted on Dr. Huey). I dumped soil mixed with cracked corn (ran out of stinky chicken manure).
strawchicago z5
7 years agoMove info. from another thread for reference purposes in HMF:
Radio Times with alkaline tap water at pH 9. Picture taken mid-Sept. 2012. It was fertilized with stinky chicken manure NPK 5-3-2, alfalfa meal NPK 2-1-2, plus topped with pH 8 composted horse manure with shell lime added by the stable. Total potassium: over 5. Total calcium: at least 3. Soil pH around 8. Leaves are very thick. When I moved it, I saw the root going deep down to the rock-hard clay below for nutrients.
Below is Munstead Wood when it was in neutral pH potting soil (clear in red-cabbage juice), after I applied gypsum (pH 6.8) which made it throw a 3 feet octopus cane.
Below Munstead Wood after planting in fixed clay. It's actually acidic at root-level, after I tested the pH with red-cabbage & distilled water. But it's at a well-drained spot, so it doesn't blackspot. Note the leaves curled up (too acidic), plus pale and THIN leaves. Sulfur deficiency occurs at very acidic level, plus less nitrogen.
I put too much pine-bark, plus acidic cracked corn (pH 4) to fix my alkaline clay. I once received bands from Burlington enclosed in pine-barks (not composted at pH below 5), and leaves got thin & pale & curled up like below.
Sulfur and nitrogen are both essential for dark-green healthy leaves, and both are less at pH below 5.6 (rain-water). Calcium & magnesium & phosphorus are less at pH below 5.6. Sulfur is supplied through decayed organics, or sulfate of potash (21% sulfur), or gypsum (17% sulfur).
Note at pH 8 (Radio Times), there's plenty of the major nutrients: magnesium, calcium, sulfur, potassium, phosphorus, and nitrogen, which contributed to healthy leaves in Sept.
strawchicago z5
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agostrawchicago z5
7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
Anna