Because he has written having in mind the UK gardener.

A lot of roses want summer heat. I don't get enough for many roses, and my climate is positively roasting compared to where Austin is from.

I think you should grow what you like in your garden, and if you like tea roses, I see no reason why you shouldn't grow them. I grow several teas in mixed garden borders here in Portland, and they do very well for me - even this year, which has been a more typical cool PNW summer. They go well with companion plants, are generally very healthy, always the first and last to bloom and have such interesting and mutable colors as the summer temperatures go from cool to hot.

They never get hot in Shropshire.. Average high for the warmest month of July is 69F.. If what wikipedia writes about Portland weather is accurate, it doesn't read very similar to West Midlands climate. WM climate is much less extreme and precipitation is almost evenly spread throughout the year.

Wow, we can easily beat that in most PNW summers!

Thank you, all! I didn't realize it was cooler there. This has been a mild summer, which I'm happy with, but still above 69, definitely. I will boldly place my order, now. :)

Which ones are you ordering, Robin?

Yes. Austin wrote about how roses did for him, in the northern part of England. DECADES ago!

Not only do Austin's climate parameters not apply equally to everyone ... but years after he wrote, England's climate is warming. I gather that they are planting vineyards again ...

I hear from folks in England who are growing Teas. Maybe they are Austin's next door neighbors. Maybe they live clear on the other side of England -- I don't know.

Graham Stuart Thomas, btw, also gave Teas short shrift, and turned his nose up, as well, at Polyanthas which I believe he said had little garden value. Maybe he was right for his place and time. But things change.

I was so dim, I started out planting the roses that Austin, and Beales, and Thomas called "essential". What a fool I was. I live in coastal SoCal, for God's sake!

So, unless you live next door to Austin, find out what is likely to grow for you LOCALLY. You're better off to take your cues from John!

Thank you for that, Jeri! It makes so much sense. :) John, I'm definitely ordering Rosette Delizy, and thinking about what to go with her. Possibly Allaince Franco Russe, Baronne Henriette de Snoy, and maybe Red Smith's Parish. But if you have any recommendations for our climate I would love the advice. :)

Btw, latitude wise Shropshire is a bit to the north of Adak in the Aleutians, Alaska. People in the US tend to forget how far to the north Europe is.. The southernmost places in Europe are to the north of SoCal..

Regarding recommendations for other teas that do well for me in the PNW, General Gallieni has been stellar for me. Moderately sized, heavy flushes of bloom, quick to repeat and even responding well to pruning. Exceptional coloring but only a very light scent on a warm day (when fully mature).

Mlle de Sombreuil also does well for me...even in a position that does not afford as much sun as she'd probably like. Every spring, the blooms ball, because the sun can't dry them out in time... But beginning with the second flush, she does this all summer (and has a light clove scent when mature)

Mr Austin is correct as far as we are concerned. Very few do well enough here to make them garden worthy, and they just wouldn't pass muster for most people. You never see them anywhere and for the curious, like myself, you have to order on line if you want one, and there are few to choose from. Mme. Antoine Mari and clg. Lady Hillingdon would be amongst the few worth a try, but even here you could always find many other blush pink or yellow climbing roses that perform better.

Bearing in mind, our mild maritime climate means we can grow a huge range of shrubs and plants, we have garden centres and plant nurseries everywhere, and roses have immense competition. Unless they are stellar performers combined with commercially appealing names, they just aren't going to figure for most people.

I can provide some examples of Tea roses and how they do.

'Comtesse de Leusse', a rose similar I think to 'Mrs B R Cant'

13th May

This was growing vigorously in my greenhouse, lovely blooms, with temps above 80-90F from mid April. As soon as I put it outside in June, it stopped completely and has done nothing since in temps little above 70F.

'Cels Multiflore'

2nd July, after torrents of rain...

This rose has surprised me. It bloomed well in my greenhouse and has carried on outside even in torrential rain and cool temps. This may be one to consider planting out permanently.

'Souvenir de Francois Goulain'

18th July '15

This Tea didn't start growing until I got 80F, then the few buds I had refused to open. A waste of garden space I'm afraid.

'clg. Devoniensis'

This rose is growing vigorously and has a couple of buds. I won't know until next year whether it's worthy or not, but any number of climbing roses could have been put in its place and with full bloom flushes by now...

'Belle Lyonnaise'

22nd May

This Tea/noisette I think has just passed away on me. All the canes have turned yellow and black. Yet it bloomed in the Spring, lovely yellowy flowers, but for some reason it's just had enough. Rather sad, I'm sorry about it.

'Mme. Berard'

This rose is a complete success for one reason only. It's growing in my greenhouse in border soil. A grafted plant, it's grown about 8-10 feet in a few months and opened its first bloom the other day. There are side shoots galore and I'm expecting a bold show perhaps later on or next season. It promises to be huge. But the greenhouse is likely making the difference. It's totally thornless which is why it's in there and out of the rain.

Rather odd to be recommending a Tea rose from here, but I think this one should be considered if you want thorn free and vigorous growth...

10th Feb

7th July

..hope you found this of interest. It's fun to experiment... that's all I can do really..

Marlorena, I think you would be better off by trying the few Teas Peter Beales' offer rather than trying the more 'exotic' selections. I've seen Teas growing in London btw but I'm sure it's different where you are.

About the latitudes of Europe vs the US, this was making the rounds on Facebook this week:

North America – Western Europe equivalent latitude maps

Atlanta is equal to Syria. London is somewhere in Alberta. Paris is on the US Canadian border. No wonder they think we don't need air conditioning. Of course they have the gulf stream, but still!

Climate is likely the main reason that Austin gives Teas short shrift, but possibly plant size is another. When they are in a climate that suits them, they are often rather large plants. Not every gardener has that kind of room...

Those are some fine-looking Tea photos, y'all...

Virginia

Just fyi he is not crazy about hybrid teas either. I have a few of his books and think the plant form of hybrid teas is not to his liking. In some ways he is right as all of the blooms looks similar except the colours and the plant shape is not the best of forms.

However, the irony of course is that with teas and hybrid teas, comes the repetitive gene which of course is incorporated in his roses. If not for the tea's gene, his roses wouldn't have existed today as they are either. I would also add that he has hybrid teas and teas to thank for his roses. This is because hybrid teas was so popular that it was widely and exclusively grown for many decades by gardeners which in turn inspire him to breed something different which is the old roses.

Now, I will tell you something Austin would never tell you . . .

That Old-Fashioned ruffled form??? He didn't recapture that because he bred back to a couple of older roses . . . That form has ALWAYS turned up in a large % of the seedlings big nurseries create every year.

The thing Austin did was . . . he KEPT those seedlings, that J&P, et al, had been discarding for decades.

How 'bout THEM potatoes? <G>

i would trade my teas for another rose if i could live in a cooler place than south texas....

I delayed planting Teas for years because I am one of the many people who cannot smell them, and I wanted to grow only fragrant roses. Many plants later I now do grow them, along with other kinds of roses and many plants that are not roses at all - trees, shrubs, perennials, bulbs, herbs, and even the odd annual or so. Some are fragrant, some are not. All have virtues that appeal to me, or they did not stay.

Malorena, I saw a Tea growing in the garden of Burton Agnes in Yorkshire. I forget which one it is, but I was astonished to see it. I can't imagine what the gardener must do to keep it alive and healthy, perhaps move it under glass in the winter. But there you have it!

They had a nice alpine garden in stone vessels as well.

I'm starting to get worried now, I've ordered a couple of teas (Dr Grill & Mme Antoine Mari) for the fall & my summers are cooler than my family in Norwich, England get. We made a daring foray into low 80's for 2 days in May & immediately retreated to our more usual mid 60's with an occasional toe in the 70's, although I can't remember the last time it was that. Our nighttime temps are 40-50's. I still have flannel sheets on my bed. Our winters are relatively mild, not CA or FL mild but not below freezing too often. Do you think the Teas will thrive in this maritime climate?

Jane

No Jane, send them right to me! That is awful of me. I do bet Hybrid Musks might be a better fit for your weather.

You're right Sheila, HMs do flourish here, they all want to be climbers, I grow a few. I thought there were a few Teas that flourished in England & not under glass. Well, I'll give mine the most tropical(hah) spot I can find & cross my fingers, I'm not into pampering my roses(all plants really), they get my compost, fish emulsion & alfalfa but not on a regular basis. I wish all my roses grew like my Cl Spray Cecile Brunner, no food, water, just pruning & she's glorious.Ah, if wishes were horses................

Jane

Introducing and re-popularizing many remontant shrub (rather than bush) roses is what DA should be thanked for, although commecial pressures have led DA Roses away from that and more towards 'bedding' roses especially in the later years. One has to remember that before DA, most older 'modern' shrub type roses were once bloomers (the so called 'Park' roses). It is still true that many new so called 'romantic' bloom type introductions, especially from Europe, adhere to the bush type plant shape which makes them HT bushes with a flat multi-petalled bloom rather than shrub roses.

The explanation I heard is that the Teas need summer heat to ripen their wood before they face the rigors of cold. They don't fear the mild PNW winter temperatures per se. I lived for about a decade in Olympia, Washington, and never dared try Teas ('Mutabilis' did reasonably well for some years until it drowned one winter when a gutterspout gave out). My advice would be, give Teas the sunniest, warmest spot you have, a heat sink if your garden offers anything of the sort. Southern or western exposure, against a wall if possible; masonry nearby could be a plus, and perhaps protection from wind. And adequate drainage. Roses that do dormant in winter can take a lot more wet than roses that are trying to stay in growth, like the Teas.

The climate where I live in Italy is not unlike that of the PNW, except that here we DO have summer heat. Winters are chilly but mild, and overall we get more snow than when I lived in Olympia, where it was a relatively rare occurrence. This is more of a four season climate. And our clouds are better.

I think it is wonderful that folks on here (and hopefully this idea is creeping in to the ARS and others) have figured out that there are roses for specific climates/conditions, and other types of roses for other climates/conditions. What I have always found annoying is when anyone, or any organization, states that a specific rose is this, or that, categorically, without explaining that they mean "in my local climate", or "in such and such type of climate".

In the past I have read remarks from various famous rose growers/breeders in the UK that "tea roses are not garden worthy". To give credit to Graham Thomas, as I recall he almost always conditioned that with something along the lines of "in our damp, cool climate". In one book, he even lamented his lack of a warm climate, and told of his awe seeing or hearing about how roses grew in warmer climates. That is a reasonable approach, and it seems to me that it is spreading, which is great.

Given that DA roses are marketed all over the world, it would seem reasonable for that company to take that approach. I think they are changing their attitude a bit - at least they now admit that many of their "3 foot bushes" are actually 8-10 foot tall climbers in warm climates.

It is wonderful that breeders have hybridized so many roses for cold climates (I am not talking about the UK, but places like the colder areas in Canada), too - including climbers, I believe. Of course, rose folks always want what we can't have, and will try and "push" climate zones, but the good news is that now those doing that are more aware of what they are doing.

Jackie

Jane, Morcom Park in coastal Oakland, CA has some lovely teas that look great, despite a relative lack of summer heat there: their average high temp in July is 72 degrees F versus 89 degrees F here in Livermore. Oakland is zone 10, not zone 8, but it's almost never hot there. It is, however, a bit warmer than San Francisco on the other side of the Bay: the average high temp in July in San Francisco is 67 degrees F. Now as I think about it, I am not familiar with any teas over there, but I do know that the best-looking Austins I've seen anywhere around have been in Golden Gate Park, while they hate my garden in Livermore. Hearing what the weather is like in Austin's home grounds, is it any wonder why? :-)

Thanks Catspa, I've always believed the lack of summer heat & not the winter is my stumbling block. The USDA zones only state low temps, I need a map that is based on high temps, I'd probably be a zone 4 equivalent if there was such a thing.

Jane

Your climate sounds remarkably similar to mine, so you should be alright with 'Mme. Antoine Mari' as I think we've discussed before. Mine is approaching its 2nd flush, gets a bit of black spot, but not too much. I don't know about 'Dr Grill'...

Marlorena, how is your bargain-buy 'Gloire de Dijon' doing? Is it still in the green house, planted out, or has it been expelled from the Garden of Eden already?

Virginia

Virginia, it was planted out but my dog decided he didn't like it and dug it up. It never recovered.

I decided not to replace it. Thanks for asking about it, I didn't think [hope] anyone would remember.

This pretty well explains why the Austins have never done that well for me and, with the heat radiation steadily increasing here, they (and a lot of other roses) are falling by the wayside. The Austins probably think they've gone straight to hell when they experience the first summer here. They've been known to leave suicide notes.

Sorry, I seem to only remember to ask about the ones that have departed... I recall that you posted a rather pretty bloom photo.

But if the dog says it goes, it goes....

Virginia

I absolutely LOVE tea roses, but will never grow them here... Next year I plan on growing Alchemist and pretend it's aunt is a tea rose. That's as close as I will ever get.

Jane, I live in zone 4 and my winters can dip to -30 F with summers reaching 100 F some years... This year has been many, many days of 96 degrees with our lows in the 50's to 60's. Wicked hot and wicked cold and I grow Austin roses almost exclusively. I just pretend they are tea roses. :)

Rebecca

Oh Rebecca that's beautiful! And Marlorena, Mme Berard is stunning. I'll be looks that one up! Melissa, I would love to hear sometime how you moved from the PNW to Italy. :) what a wonderful place to garden! And drink coffee... ;)

I will say I'm getting a tiny bit concerned that the teas I have in mind will overwhelm the space I have set aside for them. I may need to go outside with my measuring tape...

Oh, well, I ran out of garden space at my house....

Not really. My Italian-born-and-reared husband reached retirement age and we wanted to live outside the U.S. for a couple of years, which in our financial situation meant working. DH's brother-in-law offered him a job--typical Italian nepotism--so off we went. In a first wave of enthusiasm for Italy we bought an old farm, realized at the end of the two years that we had to choose between Italy or the U.S. as our permanent residence, and chose to stay in Italy. We came here in 2000. Our daughter, who was a year old when we came, has grown up here, but speaking English at home and enjoying long vacations in the U.S. with her American relatives, so that she has had the benefit of a bicultural upbringing.

So not just to make room for your tea roses? ;) what a wonderful adventure! An old farm in Italy sounds like a fabulous place to grow up. Thank you for sharing your story!