Water softener systems to choose

7 years ago

We moved to a house with well water a couple years ago. The house has water softener and acid neutralizer installed. Recently after our kids's long shower, we found green/blue stains in the bath tub. It seems that the capacity of the acid neutralizer is not big enough. Since the existing water treatment has been there for more than 20 years, we are thinking of replace it with a new one. We have a local company sales person came over, he proposed two brands, Aqua water system and AvantaPure by GE. They are both priced over $4k. A co-worker of me recommend Fleck valve which seems much cheaper. That sales person said they only install the Fleck system on the commercial business over city water, they don't recommend it on the well water. I don't know if this is true. I would appreciate if anyone can give us any advice on which brand to choose. Tina

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Comments (5)

User
7 years ago
If the salesperson thinks a specific brand is only for city water and not well water, then the salesperson clearly has no idea how to actually specify water treatment and has no business anywhere near anyone's water treatment. Period. Rant over.

Now, to your water. First, since the current water treatment has been in place over 20 years, it may be that the neutralizer simply needs to be recharged. The media gets used up over time. If there are other issues that make replacement necessary, then the system will need to be properly sized. In order to do that, water analysis is necessary. A local certified laboratory can do the analysis for you - in most states you can find a list of certified labs on the state website. The EPA also has a list available.

Get analysis of your raw, untreated water. To correctly specify water treatment and ensure well water is safe, you need to know:
1. pH
2. TDS
3. alkalinity
4. hardness
5. iron
6. manganese
7. particulate
8. sulfates
9. e, coli
10. total coliform bacteria
11. nitrates
12. VOC's
13. any other items specific to your local water - the water lab should have a good idea what these might be. These could range from fertilizer to arsenic and radon.
Along with analysis, some information about your household is necessary to size the treatment equipment:
1. # of people in your home
2. any high-flow fixtures such as multi-head showers or jetted tubs?
3. Size of the water line where your treatment system will be located. This should be the same size as the line where it enters your home.
4. The amount of flow your well is capable of generating. You can find this out with a bucket and a stopwatch, preferably at an outdoor spigot. Time how long it takes to fill a five gallon bucket. Repeat a few times, take the average time in minutes, and divide by 5 to get GPM (gallons per minute).
fechen
Original Author
7 years ago
Thanks for the info. The salesperson's comments on the Fleck brand was suspicious to me too.

There are two reasons that we want to replace the existing system:

First, we have larger household than the previous owner. The previous owner only has 2 people living in the house. We have 5-6 people living in the house with 2 full bathroom. Recently my kids like to take long showers. So it seems that the salesperson is correct that the capacity of the acid neutralizer is not big enough. The PH of the untreated water is 5.5. the PH of the tap water is 6.9. The salesperson said the PH value will go down after running the tap water for a while.

Secondly, there is a patch of fix on the top part of the acid neutralizer tank, which seems to me that it is about time to replace it before it causes any problem.

Thirdly, these are old mechanical valves. We are thinking of replacing it with newer controls.

The salesperson is proposing 1.5' water softener and acid neutralizer. We just don't know what to choose to replace the existing system.
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Choosing a Water Softening System
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Comments (7)
OK. I'm a novice at this, and I welcome the opinion of the more experienced and professionals on this forum, but I will take a stab at it. For that much iron, if you are not wanting to use a dedicated iron filter, there are many softener design "tweaks" that will help. Things I've learned: Use a sediment prefilter on the main water line. Use fine mesh resin instead of standard. Or Purolite SST60. These are more iron tolerant. Possibly use a KDF MediaGuard insert into the resin tanks. These help to reduce iron, but will not take care of all that iron. The KDF-85 is the higher capacity version for well water. Use twin tanks for more frequent regenerations without the efficiency loss you would get with a single tank regenerating so frequently. This is because with a single tank you have to factor in a reserve day because the softener will not regenerate exactly when its rated capacity runs out, it will wait until midnight or 2am (whatever it's set for) to regenerate. So you need the extra day of reserve for that in case you use up your capacity earlier than calculated. No such problem with twin tanks. Whenever the capacity runs out, the second tank is put in service while regenerating the first. Additionally, regenerating more frequently will decrease iron fouling of the resin. Let's consider your hardness. 9 grains per gallon. Adjust this to 33 gpg because of your iron (9+ 12x2). Your manganese doesn't contribute much. At an estimated 75 gallons per day water use per person, that's 150 gallons per day. Calculate that out (150*33) and you need around 5000 grains of capacity per day. Figure regenerations every 4 days to reduce iron fouling the resin, so you need 20000 grains of capacity per tank. Now you probably want to use more salt per regeneration than typical because of the iron. Without the added iron, you could consider a high efficiency salt dose of 6 lbs per cubic foot of resin, but with that much iron you probably want to use more. This is where some pros might be able to help. But let's figure 6lbs so that my post is not completely useless :) 6 lbs of salt per cubic foot will get you 20K grains of capacity. This would be enough for 4 days and you probably don't want to go below 1 cubic foot of resin anyway, even with the light usage that you list. This is the number of cubic feet of resin you would need based on capacity, but not based on SFR. You need to try to estimate your maximum water use in a given instant. If 2 people are showering per day, a load of dishes is running, the washer is running, and the third person flushes a toilet that could be around 12 gallons per minute. This is an estimation of your Service Flow Rate. You will need to try to estimate this as best as you can. Problem is, 1 cubic foot of resin is rated for a max SFR of only 5gpm with a Fleck 9000 series valve. You could go with this if you think your SFR is not greater than that. Or you could oversize it a bit (in regards to capacity) to 1.5 cubic feet and get a bit more SFR of 7.5gpm. But you would still regenerate every 4 days because of the iron. With this you would be using 9 lbs of salt every 4 days, or about 70 lbs per month ... nearly two bags. So, with those considerations in mind, if you want a good softener only system, and also considering your water hardness, iron, and usage, here's what I would look at in the "DIY" arena. You could buy this and have a local plumber install it: Fleck 9100SXT valve 3/4" Twin resin tanks with 1.5 cubic feet of SST60 resin each 2 x KDF-85 MediaGuard inserts in each of the above tanks A softener like the above from a reputable online dealer would be a bit over $1100. Again, I'm an amateur who learned all this stuff to try to configure his own system, but I'm sure a few pros and more experienced folks will chime in ...
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Pre-filtration. You asked about a "big blue" filter. Certainly, if you have particulates in your water it is a good idea to filter them out upstream from your softener. For the size of your house, one 4"x10" filter will do nicely. I always recommend installing with a 3-valve bypass so that you don't have to shut down water to your home to change the filter. Pressure valves are also a good idea so you don't have to guess when to change your filters. Unless you have random events of high particulates, or just lots of particulate in general, you will likely be changing your filter on a time schedule rather than based on pressure drop. Filters should be changed every six months to avoid bacterial contamination. Softener size. Since you have indicated that you are careful with your water, can I assume you would like to maximize water efficiency with your softer? If this is the case, coupled with the fact that you have city water, longer times between regeneration is a good thing. Provided you don't have particulates in your water (which you won't with pre-filtration), you can safely extend time between regeneration to three weeks with no ill effects. There will be less stress on your resin. A 1.5 cubic ft softener will be just right. It will regen approximately every 15 days with three people in your household, and every 12 days when you increase your family size to 4. Caveat: Before making a final decision on softener size, we should take a look at your full water analysis to ensure there aren't any other issues to consider. Valve brand. I consider Fleck and Clack valves to be pretty much the same regarding reliability and ease of use. I'm not fond of Autotrol. It's not that it's a bad valve, but it does not give the end-user as much control over regen settings. Resin type. You want 10% crossLINKED, not cross over resin. Alternatively, Purolite SST-60 is quite resistant to chlorine attack. Your vendor is confused if he thinks he can offer you Aldex SST-60 because there is no such thing. If he as actually talking about Purolite SST-60, that will be a great choice for you. Because the size distribution is so tight and the inner core is inert, SST-60 can regen using quite a bit less water. There is no reason for you to use fine mesh resin. Drain location. I do not recommend plumbing it to your floor drain if it simply goes to ground. It is unlikely to be capable of handling the fairly rapid influx of water from a softener regen. Plumb it to your septic. Kitchen faucet. If you choose to bypass your kitchen faucet, you will get hardness buildup in that faucet, the sink and the dishwasher (if you have a standard installation where the DW is plumbed off of the water line to the sink). Unless you are under doctor's orders to consume a very low sodium diet, there is no reason not to use soft water for cooking. If you object to the taste of soft water (lots of folk do, including me), you can either plumb a single line upstream from the softener to a separate drinking water faucet, or install an RO. This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Mon, Apr 7, 14 at 11:33
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Comments (2)
It's difficult to determine what you will be "better off" doing - you will have to weigh cost, convenience, expertise, support, etc. for yourself. I can provide some pros and cons to assist you. Your situation is actually a bit difficult to determine the correct size softener if you go with a traditional single-tank softener. Purely based on water usage and hardness, you could get away with a 0.5 cubic ft softener. However, flow rate through such a small softener would be severely limited. The size of your house would dictate about a 1.25 cubic ft softener, but that would cause you to regen every 20 days and risk possible media compaction or regen more often and use a lot more salt. So you see the dilemma. A 0.75 cubic ft softener is a reasonable compromise The Kinetico, on the other hand, is a packed bed softener, allowing much higher flow rates through a much smaller softener. It does not suffer from the drawbacks of a traditional softener for your specific situation. The price is high, but it may be a bit easier to accept the price if you think of this as a 20-year purchase. $140/year, If you decide to go with a standard softener, call around to local dealers first and see what they can do for you. You want your softener to meet the following criteria: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin bed. When you have CITY WATER: 10% crosslinked resin. The oxidizers that city water treatment plants use, such as chlorine or chloramine, are harmful to softener resins. Higher crosslinking will resist chemical attack longer. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. . Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time. Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it so much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Preferably, use full-port, quarter-turn valves.
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GardenWeb Community, I need your assistance. I am needing to size a water softening and whole house filtering system for my home and there are many different approaches I have found on the web with different values, peak vs. average flow rates, etc. Based on the feedback I have read thus far from Justalurker and aliceinwonderland_id on this site I am leaning towards a Fleck softening system but not sure which one. Also looking for ideas on a whole home filtering system based on the below test results. We live in Anchorage, Alaska and we just bought a 6000 sqft., 3 bed 3.5 bath house with 3 people living in it (wife, 2.5 yr old daughter, and myself). All appliances are high efficiency Frigidaire Professional series, Triangle Tube Prestige Water heater, etc. A recent water test was performed by a local sales company and the basic results are as follows: TDS: 125 ppm Hardness: 10 gpg pH 7.0 Total Alkalinity 120 ppm Total Iron 0.1 ppm Total Manganese 0.2 ppm Coliform: Neg colonies/100mL Nitrate: 5.09 mg/L Arsenic: ND ug/L Let me know if any additional information is needed in order to provide any recommendations. Any recommendations are welcomed and I genuinely appreciate the assistance in advance. Regards, Derek
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User
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
With a pH that low, you will most likely need a Calcite/corosex blend in the neutralizer. Calcite on its own will likely not work adequately, but I can't say for certain because I don't have TDS analysis for your water. As to the softener, I can't tell you whether or not 1.5 cubic ft is the right size because you haven't provided adequate information for me to do so. All I can say is that if your raw water hardness is higher than FIVE gpg (grains per gallon), 1.5 is most likely too small. If you have iron and/or manganese in your water, then correct size and operating conditions will have to change drastically.

Fleck will be easier to get parts should anything go wrong, compared to the others that are proprietary. The Vortech used by Aqua is also expensive and unnecessary.
PRO
Sao Viet
7 years ago
Green stains more likely to be due to algae, you should disinfect water with chlorine pipeline

You can see how to do from following article:

http://locnuocsaoviet.com/khu-trung-duong-ong-cap-nuoc.html
fechen
Original Author
7 years ago
We did a comprehensive water test. Here are the results. We have 5.5 people living in the house. I have the following questions

1. What capacity and brand of water softener and neuturalizer is recommended based on these information?

2.
The total coliform bacteria is present in the water. This tested water
is the raw water directly from the well. This bacteria was not present
three years ago from the kitchen sink faucet. Could the existing
filtration system filter out the bacteria or the bacteria gets into the
well in the last three years? What should we do with this?

3. The lead level is a little exceed the MCL which is 0.015. Do we need the treatment?

4.
Do we need radon mitigation? Someone told me that if we install the
radon mitigation, we don't need the acid neweturalizer anymore. is this
true?

Thanks for your input!

Water test results:
1. pH 6.0
2. TDS 202
3. alkalinity 28
4. hardness 97
5. iron 0.017
6. manganese 0.007
7. particulate
8. sulfates 15.3
9. e, coli absent
10. total coliform bacteria present
11. nitrates 2.2
12. Radon 3920
13. Lead 0.02

Water softener systems to choose

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Water softener systems to choose

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