It was the vacuum in which ISIL was formed, so it is likely, or at least very possible, that had the Iraq war not happened, this horrific group would not exist, at least as it does now.

The ME is such a complex place. I do believe that removing Saddam Hussein destabilized an already unstable region of the world. The mistake, IMO, was that again IMO, he was removed due to nothing more than one man's desire to avenge his father, and the one-track-mind desire to do that caused him to not consider unintended consequences, and in fact to ignore warnings of such consequences in favor of convincing himself he was doing a good and moral thing.

I think we'd still have a terrorism problem due to geopolitics, namely oil, and the problem of gross income and wealth disparity.

It's hard to say. Saddam Hussein was a bad man with many human rights violations on his people, especially the Kurds, many of the leaders in surrounding countries were afraid of him, especially Iran, and he kept them in check.

The more I try to educate myself on matters like these, the more I understand how complex the issues are that led to what we're dealing with today.

I also know that there's a lot that can't/hasn't been disclosed concerning alliances we formed and actions (or inactions) made in the past.

The one thing I do know for certain is that these are longstanding culturally steeped issues that no one leader can "fix" or "handle" with brash military action. It's scary that politicians put that out and scarier that so many Americans buy into it.

I believe that is the conventional wisdom, and it makes sense to me. But it goes back even further. We have been messing around in the Middle East willy nilly for decades upon decades simply because we want cheap oil, with little or no regard for the interests of the people. Yes, that region is also blanked-up for many reasons of its own doing (like the Saudi royals zealously promoting extreme forms of Islam and then leading very OTT Western lives themselves).

I also think that technology has reduced the amount of resources and organization required to wage unconventional war. That has facilitated growth in the fringe.

On top of all of this, I never feel sure we are seeing what goes on there accurately and without bias. Even if our govt and media wanted to report without bias, that is nearly impossible.

Yes it has lead to more terrorists because the vacuum gave the dungeon master a chance to gain territory. Once he could claim a state (and offer slaves) it attracted still more trouble to the area.

" Do you think going to war and Iraq losing their government has lead to more terrorist cells? Do you think it would be as bad as it is today or no different at all?"

Little or no difference. I wish we did know the why....

(Keep remembering the terrorists were hitting here before the Iraq war.

The 1993 World Trade Center bombing supposedly happened because of the US support of Israel.

The majority of the attackers responsible for the 9/11/2001 attacks were from Saudi Arabia.)

I'm so torn on this...did I want more ground troops? No, I did not like the idea of our young men and women dying. Would I want more air strikes? Yes. Can you have one without the other and really get anywhere? See, I'm no good at thinking war and what if's. We did leave unfinished business and I like many thought we could then just ignore it.

What I do feel is that idealism has and had gotten in the way recently and allowed terrorist cells to grow almost past the point of return. If you read my above you can see my own conflict of sort of wanting it both ways. I also believe that over the last few years I was allowed to think in that way and it was even encouraged with Obama telling me all was well and handled and terrorists were being handled and contained.

It is nowhere near containment.

It's also not something we can do alone. And that....is past something I can wrap my head around.

Unfortunately, they are succeeding at just what terrorism is supposed to do. Make the victims act irrationally and collapse themselves. IMHO that is why we see the rise of extreme candidates in the US and Western Europe, it's why we have Brexit, etc etc

Well, he has done a dive in polls recently.

Edited: not sticking up for the big mouth but our media is also much to blame for how people like your DIL's family view our nominee's. Our media is a very high percent liberal. For example: instead of saying the Donald wants a "temporary" ban until we figure out better screenings, they just say Trump wants to ban all Muslims from the U.S. Also, Trump has repeatedly said that not all Muslims are terrorists and there are many good Muslim peoples but we have to try to keep the bad terrorists who are Muslim out. The press just says Trump wants to keep Muslims out because they are terrorists.

They put a spin on it. Either way, it's harsh! Still, it's something many other countries are doing. Trying to keep bad terrorists who happen to be Muslim out of their countries through increased screenings and other measures.

Lots of irresponsible behaviour to go around.

Also, religious zealotry and fundamentalism tends to rise dramatically when people are stressed economically (and in other ways), so there again I think that economic disparity is a major factor.

Justterriliynn, just to clarify, this is actually Trump's position on his proposal to ban Muslims from entering the US:

DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION

(New York, NY) December 7th, 2015, -- Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population. Most recently, a poll from the Center for Security Policy released data showing "25% of those polled agreed that violence against Americans here in the United States is justified as a part of the global jihad" and 51% of those polled, "agreed that Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah." Shariah authorizes such atrocities as murder against non-believers who won't convert, beheadings and more unthinkable acts that pose great harm to Americans, especially women.

Mr. Trump stated, "Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life. If I win the election for President, we are going to Make America Great Again." - Donald J. Trump

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

Yes, that's what I'm saying Tibb, a temporary ban until we figure it out.

The mistake I can see is that he named a target to temporary ban. Not very P C. Other countries are shoring up their security against terrorists who are Muslim without bringing in the "M" word.

I found this link with a former CIA agent makes a lot of sense.

http://theantimedia.org/former-cia-really-causing-terrorism/

How ironic and strangely simplistic at heart.

Using just the U.S. & Turkey as current day examples. Both are IMO moderate, peace loving countries. They're both democracies where the majority of citizens simply want to live in a safe and free environment. In normal circumstances, they would choose moderate leaders. But in a threatening environment where innocent people are being murdered the radical fringes gain ground.

Who can blame the U.S. for our fears in light of recent terrorist attacks? And who can blame the Turks for thinking it's time to get out of the crosshairs because of their relationship with the U.S. when they are seeing American leaders condemn the majority of their people? Turkey has recently been the target of civilian bombing because of their Western alliances.

Mtn & Tib hit it on the head I believe. It's a mix of long time Middle East tensions, increase in internet availability and religious extremism. Apart from 9/11, the terrorist attacks on US soil have been home grown for the most part.

It's grown due to ideology and influencing young minds with their rhetoric. I just read an interesting blog post by Garrison Keiller on Trump being a punk. I feel like these young people who follow the extremist propaganda do so primarily because they see the Western world-primarily the US as a punk and the rise of Trump-like media stars just adds fuel to their fire.

And if they're US born of foreign parents, they're really feeling the isolation and torment of punks so they figure ways to take revenge and the extremist groups, followed by them on the internet, help spark that flame.

Ducktails & punks

Yes Neet, only 10 out of 28 deadly domestic terror attacks since 2001 were Muslim terrorists. And I agree we don't need to add fuel to the fire. Best do what other countries are doing ( more screening and monitoring) but not mentioning the "M" word. As much as I like straight talk I think it's doing more harm than good. I would like something inbetween as far as a rhetoric .

The Middle East has been unstable since the beginning of time. First it was land, then it was religion and then it was economics and then back to religion with oil thrown in. If you try to unwind the whys and wherefores of it , you will drive yourself nuts.

If you want to start with the modern reasons for the unstable situation in the Middle East a good place to start is after WWll with the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Even from there, good luck with figuring out who the players are and what their agendas might be.

There is no specific blame to be laid, it is all a confluence of circumstances. The circumstances stem from religious, societal and economic factors.

It is rather naive to think we are going to ban "Muslims" from coming into our country, since they represent about 1/4 of the world's population And not all are from the Middle East. We do a lot of business with Muslim countries. Take Turkey for example, and Indonesia. And not all Middle Easterners are Muslims. There are terrorists of all religious ilks and political persuasions. We have young men going on killing sprees here in the US for a whole mix of reasons. Imagine the horrors of living in the Middle East where such killings are sometimes a weekly occurrence. The whole idea of Osama bin Laden was to draw the US into the fray, so in that sense we played right into his hand. My thoughts has always been, "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." Or as Colin Powell said, "You break it, you own it." The complex despot and counter-despot politics of the Middle East is not something I would wish on any country. The society there is broken down into the haves and their militias and enclaves, which is not something I want to see happen in the US. Not condusive to the flowering of culture or society either, and if in doubt about that, remember the Middle Ages. Very similar goings on then too, life was darn near impossible for the average citizens due to violent factions so everyone holed up in walled cities and there was constant wars so not much got moved forward as far as civilization.

People would start to question your wisdom if you went around trying to kill flies with a sledghammer. That guy in Orlando was an American born citizen. He as not unlike Adam Lanza from what I can tell, a real problem for most of his life. So what to do about someone like that I don't know, because obviously if either of those young men had had parents or teachers or mentors who could have turned them around they would have done it, but it seems like nothing worked on them. That's a whole different issue than ISIL, Mateen just used ISIL to glorify himself and there are plenty more young men all over the world like him who would do the same, for ISIL, for the Klan, because they are not part of the "cool" crowd, hey, for just a few minutes of social media fame apparently. So not sure what to do about that. But banning 1/4 of the world's population from interacting with the US just because one unhinged person out of millions caused a problem makes as much sense as banning people from South Africa from entering the US because Dylan Storm flew the Rhodesian flag.

We do have to figure out a way to identify problem people, but religion isn't going to be it. How about domestic violence? That has a strong correlation. How about alienation? I mean I am open to ideas of how to identify and neutralize these people but they seem to come from all walks of life. To solve a problem you must first accurately diagnose it. I don't know what we can do about alienated young men here in the US, let alone throughout the world. Whatever they are doing, we should do the opposite, seems like. Pretty obvious that terrorism breeds in a culture of violence of all sorts. We can't even nip that in the bud in our own country, it seems to be growing and it's our own citizens who are killing each other, just like those countries we supposedly are so different from. Like I said, we are becoming more and more like them, so when I see Americans talking and acting like Middle Eastern demagogues and aspiring to despotism, it sends a chill down my spine. Not sure really why Bin Laden wanted to draw the US into the fray, I suspect jealousy, but he sure succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Humans are often confused when the reality ends up being different than the PR brochure, which is why you have to look at a person's accomplishments and how they accomplished them to evaluate their trustworthiness. Talk is cheap. This is how I felt about the Iraq War, it SOUNDED impressive, but anyone who knows the history of the region could have guessed that the reality would be something all together different.

Edited to add that I really take offense to the idea that all Muslims have the same thoughts and beliefs and that all Muslims support terrorism or are believers in Jihad or whatever. I belong to a minority group religion and it is often characterized by people who have absolutely no facts or data or knowledge of the culture whatsoever. We get all riled up on here when someone says something about "conservatives think this or are all like that" or "liberals are all like this" and the same goes for "Muslims." Jews, Christians and Hindus can't even all agree on what they should believe and are as diverse as the world is large, and have also been fighting among themselves over what they should do and believe for eons, so to say "All Muslims are like . . . " is the definition of prejudice and also extremely inaccurate to say the least. I always find it laughable when someone who knows nothing about Judaism or Catholicism or whatever tells me what Jews or Catholics believe. Heck, I just read a whole series of articles from Catholics complaining that he Pope doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to Catholic doctrine. So it's rather short sighted to think that all Muslims are of one mind. In fact, this just plays into their hand. Terrorists love the black and white drama world.

Neetsie, thanks for that article. I find myself so non-plussed by that worm's success that it helps to read things that articulate just exactly what is so reprehensible. Because I am rendered speechless by the phenom.

Terrorists come from all religions. Dylan Roof is a terrorist. ISIL is a political movement that cloaks itself in religion.

If you have the chance try to watch CNN's special: Why They Hate Us

CNN Why They Hate US

Maddielee, I just love Faheed Zakaria, what a great journalist he is! I never cease to learn something when he is reporting! Interesting that many Christian fundamentalists have the exact same gripes against modern secular life--corrupt, sinful, biased, destroying their lives, leaving them out, benefiting the bad guys and screwing the little guys, etc. It's not just radical Islam that works to make people feel isolated and alienated. And I'm not saying people who have those gripes are totally wrong either, but there are other ways of solving those problems than though violence. That's really the problem that always needs to be addressed, the idea that violence is a viable way to get what you want or solve the problem that is bugging you, or improve a situation, etc.

Edited to add that the "thugs" in my life that I have observed, usually run out of gas because they eventually burn enough bridges with enough people. Spend enough real time with them, you wise up unless you are just like them yourself, at which point you eventually get into a pissing match with them. But like Garrison Keillor says, if they are rich, they can find ways to indulge themselves indefinitely. The rich ones do often make quite a mess of things. Bankruptcy is one example. I'm sure there is no shortage of rich thugs in the oil rich Middle East. And yes, they seem to be content to eternally engage in pissing matches with each other to the detriment of their society, because they don't even understand the concept of care and concern for others, it just isn't in their brain's ability to process. You can't control someone like that, and they often prey on alienated folks who feel like they too can "be cool" by joining up with them. Their equivalents are recruiting future terrorists as I type this.

This moderate country? This one, the one with the nutcase of a president who declares a very high crime anyone who "insults" him or his "moderate" country?

Turkish police fire rubber bullets, tear gas at LGBT parade.

Must be the same kind of "moderates" we have here, in the USofA....moderation and civil rights for some, eh?

Moderate Turkey

What I wonder is why do we call it "terrorism"? Why do we call it "jihad"? Isn't it just sadism unfettered by the rule of law? Sharia law is not law... Of course, there is no cachet to

"mom I'm going off to join the sadists I want to behead a bunch of people and rape a bunch more and then I can burn them to death and destroy historical sites while I'm at it…"

Nothing noble in that.

I think the best description I ever read was the International Society of Islamic Sadists... Men and women who act very badly using religion as an excuse.

We should consider that Christianity has it medieval Crusaders and we don't really want to identify them as Christian because their behavior was despicable. ISIS points to their behavior is the start of 1000 year campaign against the poor downtrodden Muslim… What is disgusting is that modern-day ISIS members and supporters are well aware of that despicable behavior and rather than do better are trying to do much worse...

Amck2 As to your DIL in Turkey, she is probably in a panic since the president of Turkey has come out and said that all good Turkish women should have at least three children and good Muslim women shouldn't use birth control. Clearly his plan is to outpopulate all other religions...

Zealots are not aware of the fact that their behaviour is what many of us would consider to be despicable. They think that they are right and the rest of us are wrong. There is no middle of the road or compromising or another side to the discussion as far as they are concerned.

practical, my DIL and I are in the same boat. Declarations like what you wrote above by Muslim leaders don't reflect her, her family's or friends' views any more than Trump's rants and observations line up with mine or people close to me.

Sadly, these are what are repeatedly broadcast throughout the world and come to characterize the people of those countries. This unjustly portrays the majority and makes one group defensive and fearful of the foreigners. This is precisely those leaders' goal - creating fertile ground to grow seeds of mistrust then convince people that THEY are the ones who will keep them safe from the others.

Outside of the radical extremist Jihadist's, I think some of the people who join these extremists are either people who are just unhappy and angry and join these groups bc it gives them some sort of perceived purpose. Not all are truly in it for the sake of the religion.

I once saw a documentary about how there is so much poverty that men and men with families are approached and offered money etc. So, some people's motivation is a chance to get out of poverty and feed their families.

I've changed my mind about the US going into Afghanistan after 9/11 - it should have been treated as a police action to capture those responsible... and not an invasion.

I have heard plenty of rants from people in the US about how American women shouldn't use birth control. Catholic Church anyone? About how motherhood is a woman's natural position in society, from Americans. I know people who believe it is their duty to produce as many Christian children as possible. Ever heard of the "Quiverfull" movement? Sounds like Turkey is just like the US--diverse in ideas of how to live.

Pinkmountain- No, I had not heard of the quiver full movement. I'm really glad you pointed this out. It is sad. Half the human race has more value than just being a broodmare.

These folks have a right to their beliefs, just pointing out that Erdogan doesn't speak for all Muslims or Turks any more than Ted Cruz speaks for all Christians and Americans, etc. Muslims have as much diversity of belief as Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. I actually know a lot of Muslims who are not big fans of Erdogan, nor are all Turks any more fond of him then folks in the US might be fond of some big bombastic leader who shoots his mouth off about whatever to get attention over here.

As to the original question, not sure why terrorism is making a comeback world wide. Obviously political and economic instability is a huge factor. Also the way technology makes it possible for folks to isolate themselves--so many of the public functions now can be carried out online. So many people competing for limited resources on the planet doesn't bring out our more generous-minded natures.

I will tell you this, from what I have observed, the folks on the power trips on both sides of the pond are capable of feigning human feelings but are actually not very motivated by positive re-inforcement, so very hard to control them through education or socializing, Mateen is a good case in point. They always have a gripe and will never relinquish it. Such men are made from the stew of an unstable and violent upbringing, with a powerful and abusive authority figure, circumstances which are on the rise throughout the world. So to me, an armed war in Iraq did nothing to help Iraq stabilize and create the conditions that discourage terrorism. It went from being moderately oppressive over there to drastically. I think our "haves" talked to their "haves" and thought it would be relatively easy to install their buddies into power and get back into the oil business over there. But our "haves" were too insulated from the realities of Iraq and were sold a real load of you-know-what. Talk about a place with wealth concentrated in the hands of the few . . . !!! You need a large middle class for this kind of stability. We should not pooh pooh the worldwide erosion of the middle class as if it won't have dramatic consequences. It's a toxic stew of lack of opportunity and pissed off young people, which demographers were predicting and warning about for decades before the current bad conditions. I know because I studied world demographics back in college in the early 80's, and this "challenge" was anticipated and predicted.

I don't know......but giving angry young people with bleak prospects weapons and filling them with hate then forming them into a group is never good. The young people are only tools to be used and human life means nothing. The head terrorists wont blow themselves up. They use the pawns instead. How easy it is to fill heads with ideas and send them out. The weapons get more powerful and so it goes.

How are we going to fix this hate? It's going to be hanging around for a while. Even if we took all the weapons away, people would be throwing rocks at each other. I hate the middle ages attitudes toward women. I hate the barbarity. I feel like we are going back to where we should never go.

Why do people join terrorist groups? Might as well ask why people join gangs. Probably looking for a better life than what they have. Easy to blame someone else for your problems. Americans or cops, just fill in the blank.

Bigger question. Why does Hillary Clinton take money from these countries that support terrorism and degrade women?