digdirt and jimster thanks for the links , good reading. ksrogers thats a nice story as i always enjoy reading the family ones, on the other forum i have been going to for little over 3 years now we discuss fig tree and there fruit another passion of mine and the family history of the tree's are great to read as well so thanks for shareing that. My granfather in Italy was a baker by trade my father used to tell me but i never met him nor grandmother as they passed when i was small. The cast iron pan gets a ring of slight rust after it cools around inside rim which i scrub with water and then rub in some oil and heat on stove till i use it next ,it is cumbersome and this one pan is just for the bread , when i preheat oven with it i dont get any smoke which is good. I just have to keep at it or it would rust thats for sure, but your right stainless would be much much better. Today i baked a loaf of bread with some starter that i had bought last year, i tried a basket i have with one of those towels in it floured nice, so i made the dough wetter i usually freeform my loaves, i figured since in a basket i could get away with a wetter dough. I had a stone but it cracked on me last year so i use a preheated cookie sheet, i took cookie sheet out of hot oven and placed over the basket i know what your thinking burn towel and basket well that did not happen but the dough flattend out more or less at this point i slashed top and put in oven, now the funny part, my turkey roaster i was going to use i thought well if the dough rises to much it will mess things up so i used tall aluminum stock pot to cover the dough to see what would happen. After about 4 to 5 minutes i pulled rack out of oven and lifted pot up and the dough would have stuck to it as it kept on spreading. So i left top off of dough and misted it and sides of oven, the bread tasted good with slight sour taste this evening with spaghettis and the works but it looked awfull , the crum had nice holes though oh well. I have what they call chicago mettalic pan with a bunch of little holes in it if anyone is familar with it you know what it looks like, trouble is the bread crust pokes thru them iv'e tried several ways, first time for proofing in them (big mess) second time proofing loafs elswhere then baking in them another mistake as they crust still went into the wholes and made it hard to clean. Then i used parchment paper until crust formed enough not to poke thru the holes which is what i do now when i use this , basically im not crazy about it. So im going to try the basket again it seems like it works well and is the right size for the pound and a half bread i make and comes out easy for me i just need to not make the dough as wet, and i should get a bakers peel as well instead of fooling around with a hot cookie sheet like i did today, in the meen time i think i will freeform the loaves till i get the bakers peel 1 day.The starter i bought off ebay seems slow to activate but its getting there, the other one i experimented with is so far going real well as there are many more bubbles now than yesterday , today im dumpind all but a cup and then just adding cup of flour and about cup of water it seems to react faster than the other ones i have dealt with in the past and present so im anxious to try this one, it did have an off odor at first but now it seems to be ok , im going to keep feeding it for a good week and then bake and see what the results are. Sorry for long post but i tried to put what i as thinking all in one post instead of creating several different ones, any comments are always welcome. Martin

Hello everyone! I walked in the door last night at 11:00 p.m. after the flight from hell. I white knuckled it all the way home on the plane. Usually turbulence doesn't bother me. Charles didn't wake me this morning with his usual rustlings, so, I slept in and I'm well rested. That dough master named Teresa really cracked the whip and had me worn out by the time I got home ;-). I had such a good time and was sorry to see the get together end :-( Everyone at Paney Camp was a joy to be around and I highly recommend the get togethers. Looking forward to PFPP in Novemeber. When I got home last night I had a box from a CF friend on the kitchen island. OMG, I couldn't believe it! I'll start a thread as soon as I can. omg, omg, omg! Maggie is here and we are catching up on our time we spend together every week so I need to keep this short. I will be back tomorrow with a few more pictures. I'm running short on time today.

Marilyn (fammsimm) - "Must this be done immediately or is it possible to freeze (or refrigerate) the dough for future baking? Any tips you could share?" The dough cycle on your bread machine is designed to make the dough only, up to the point where it needs to be formed, allowed to rise once more, then baked. This particular cycle feature comes in handy when you want to take the dough and make dinner rolls, hamburger/hot dog buns, cinnamon rolls, English Muffins, bread sticks, pizza, calazone, bierocks, kolaches, panned or free-formed loaves, etc. Things that must be formed and baked in your conventional oven. I'm a do-it-now personality, so I remove the dough from the bread machine and form, rise, and bake. The only time I retard bread dough (or items made with bread dough) is if I have too much to be accomodated in the oven and I don't want to risk over-proofing the dough before I can get it baked. So if I make 4 loaves and my oven only accodomates 2 loaves, I'll form the loaves, cover with plastic wrap, place 2 in the refrigerator to slow down the rising, allow the other two to raise, and bake. About the time the first two go into the oven, bring out the refrigerated loaves, and allow them to finish proofing. They should be ready to go into the oven about the time the first two come out. I also refrigerate half the dough when I make English Muffins because it's easier to work with in smaller amounts. It's all about timing and years of mistakes and experience. Bread is a very humbling thing... Here's where it can get tricky...especially for newbies. Can the dough be refrigerated? Yes. It's called retarding the dough. You can retard formed loaves for a few hours or dough for up to 5 days. To retard dough, you will need to remove it from the bread machine BEFORE it goes through a rise cycle (as soon as it stops kneading, remove it) to retard the dough in the refrigerator for later use. The dough will continue to rise, even in the cold confines of the refrigerator, and you may occasionally need to knock the dough down. The dough needs to be well-covered in a sealed dough-rising bucket, or a bowl covered with plastic wrap so the "skin" of the dough doesn't dehydrate in the refrigerator. A helpful hint when making refrigerator dough: they keep best if there is some potato - or any pureed vegetable - (mashed potatoes, potato flakes, etc.) in the recipe. The potato preserves moisture in the dry climate of the refrigerator. But any type of dough can be refrigerated successfully for a short period of time, up to 12-24 hours. If you are going to keep it for several days, you will want to choose a recipe with some potato in it. Most refrigerator dough is ready to use after 8 hours, and will keep for up to 5 days. When you are ready to use refrigerated dough, punch it down. Shape, cover, let rise and bake. One of the famous recipes for this type of dough is Betty Crocker Potato Refrigerator Dough. You can Google the recipe to give you an idea of what you can make with refrigerator dough, even though it's not a bread machine recipe. Retarding dough in the refrigerator is also a way to add flavor to the bread. Can the dough be frozen? Yes. It is best if you form it before you freeze it, and needs to be used within 4 weeks, whereas baked bread can keep for 3 months in the freezer. Check the link below for complete information about freezer dough. I'm like many of the others, I only use my bread machine for making dough. I don't even let it rise in the bread machine. I use a dough rising bucket instead, so that I can judge when the dough has doubled. Dough doesn't rise to a clock and it's easy for dough to over-proof in a bread machine. But bread machines are great labor-saving devices when it comes to kneading. I have carpal tunnel and tennis elbow in both arms and wouldn't trade my Zojirushi for anything (other than another Zojirushi). The bread machine is what I use to make all our yeast and sourdough breads and I bake some kind of bread/s at least once or twice a week. -Grainlady Here is a link that might be useful: Baking 911 - freezing bread dough

1. What you are probably experiencing are rancid oils in the whole wheat flour from exposure to oxygen and heat, combined with an odor from over-proofing. Wheat as a grass and wheat as the hard seed, have nothing in common for flavor. Trust me on this one - I grew up in the middle of wheat fields and participated in wheat production from seed to harvest. I grow wheatgrass for juicing and 25-years of milling my own flour and making all our breads and baked goods with it, and I've never experienced any flavors or aromas like you describe. Try another loaf using a dough rising bucket to control your first rise and see if you get different results. Dough can over-proof during the first (second, optional rise, although it's not often used anymore) and the final proof/rise (after it's formed for baking). 2. Purchased commercial flour isn't "fresh". It may have been recently purchased, but the only way to get "fresh" flour is to mill it yourself, or purchase it at the mill as soon as it's been processed and bagged. We have no idea when commercial flour was milled, conditions during transporting and warehousing (temperature/humidity) and how long it's been sitting on the shelf in the store. Depending on how it's bagged and stored, flour can also absorb strong household, refrigerator or freezer odors. --If you are considering adding bulghur, that's another wheat product I would suggest making yourself from whole wheat berries - fresh is best. It's susceptible to quickly going rancid from exposure to heat, light and oxygen; and it's mainly adding "tooth" (a grainy, chewy texture, as well as additional fiber), but not a lot of flavor. I do have a good recipe for Bulgur Wheat Loaf if you want me to post it. You can't mask rancid oils or that vinegar scent from over-proofing dough. As a foods judge at fairs, smelling the bread is an important part of judging, and can tell you a lot about it. 3. "Artisan Bread" means it's made by hand. After that, it's up for interpretation, and that interpretation gets very broad. What you are describing is a lean, light wheat bread, free-formed into a boule (ball). The term "artisan" is more commercial than anything else. Up until bread was made with some kind of machinery, it was all "artisan" bread - made by hand. Some claim an "artisan bread" has to be made with a starter, not baker's yeast. Another interpretation may mean it's formed by hand, but the dough can be made with the assistance of a machine (stand mixer or bread machine). Panned soft sandwich bread can be an "artisan" bread. It doesn't have to be formed into a boule. 4. Poking dough with two fingers after the first rise in the bowl is an inaccurate method for testing dough for reaching "double" - use a dough rising bucket instead. For the final proofing (after the dough is formed) to show the loaf is ready to bake, testing it by gently pressing it with a finger and leaving a slight indention on the surface is not much better for accuracy. You really need to be able to eyeball the dough, and make sure you are using the correct size pan for the correct amount of dough, and know the dough's rising characteristics. For instance, using a no knead - Bread in 5-minutes a Day recipe, those loaves generally don't "double" in bulk before they are ready for the oven. You'll also get a big difference if you form a flat-ish boule instead of a high dome. They also take different baking times, so bake bread to the correct internal temperature, not by time, looks, or the ever inaccurate - tapping on the bottom. --Cover formed dough for the final proof with plastic wrap - it's not possible to put it in a dough rising bucket. The dough rising bucket is used for the first (and second - if using it) fermentation of the bulk dough, not formed for baking dough. --Where many people go wrong -- they allow the dough to rise to the size they want the finished loaf. In an approximate, rule-of-thumb measurement, the dough represents 1/3 of the finished size, you allow the dough to double in bulk and that = 2/3 of the finished size. The last 1/3 is accomplished through oven-spring when the dough finishes rising in the oven. 5. Since bleached/unbleached flour is no longer bromated (added chemicals), it doesn't have the extensibility it once did and it doesn't stretch as far before over-proofing as it once did, so just UNDER double is actually a better gauge, and just UNDER double is nearly always a better gauge when using 100% wholegrain flour, or a mixture of wholegrain and bleached/unbleached. Whole wheat flour isn't as extensible as bleached/unbleached flour because of the bran. 6. A dough rising bucket is nothing more than an opaque plastic tub with straight sides and a tight fitting lid. They are available through King Arthur Flour, but I got mine from the local restaurant supply store for about half the price, where they are considered - food storage containers with a lid. I like those with graduated markings on the side, but a recycled plastic ice cream tub will work just fine. --Just make sure the container you use has straight sides. A slant-sided bowl is also an inaccurate gauge because it's smaller at the bottom and flairs out at the top, so it's very difficult to gauge "double". --I have these plastic food storage containers in several sizes to accommodate different amounts of dough, and also have round as well as square containers. It's all about the straight sides. The one I use the most is 2-quarts. My standard recipe for 100% whole wheat bread makes about 1-quart of dough. I know it's double when it reaches the 2-quart line. --If you use an unmarked container, just use a ruler to measure where the dough is in the container. You could also tape a 6-inch ruler on the side of the container. Double the measurement of dough pressed in the bottom of the container and mark it on the container. So if the dough measures 2-inches, it will be "doubled" when it reaches the 4-inch mark. If you mark it with a piece of masking tape, mark whether the top or the bottom of the tape is the measure, or you can accidently be adding the width of the tape and over- or under-proof the dough. Beth Hensperger's "Bread Made Easy" - A Baker's First Bread Book - shows step-by-step pictures and includes pictures proofing dough in a dough rising bucket (pg. 32), with the two-finger test as the option. Keep at it.... Bread is the most humbling food we make :-). A trip to your local library may also provide books and videos that can help. Information and experience..... -Grainlady