Even cheap supermarket flour will bake a decent loaf.
You have something else going on besides just the flour!

King Arthur sells a lot of different flours, but as for being closest to the French flours, I'm not sure. French flours contain ascorbic acid but a lot of their wheat comes from the same Canadian and American fields Gold Medal and other brands use.

It would be helpful to see the recipe and get some more information. There are innumerable possibilities, but you really shouldn't need to be adding vital wheat gluten for a lean white loaf. Gluten can be helpful with whole grain "seedy" breads, but in your case it sounds like there are other issues to resolve.

Carol

As said, King Arthur(KA) is a brand, and K has many different kinds of flour. KA all purpose(ap) is a hi protein flour. Even higher protein is KA bread flour. Higher protein creates long gluten strands, giving the bread structure, but not necessarily tenderness or loft. Higher gluten flours are often used for American artisan breads and give them chewiness.

Adding vital wheat gluten(vwg), in prescribed amounts, will alleviate denseness in breads.

Most supermarket ap (all purpose) such as Gold Medal, Pillsbury, etc, have less protein, lower gluten, than KA and are more tender and better for cookies, cakes. and breads, too.

I just started baking breads and have learned that there are many factors in creating the results you want. Brands of flour are one of many elements.

Keep trying. Happy baking.

Traditional french bread has no additives. For french speakers, here is the link to the law. 65 grade flour with no additives. Just flour, water, salt, yeast.

Type Appellation Usage
45 P�tisserie P�tisserie et viennoiserie
55 Blanche Pain
65 Blanche Pain, la type 65 "tradition" ne contient pas d'acide ascorbique (vitamine C) ajout�e.
80 Bise Pain bis
110 Compl�te Pain complets et sp�ciaux
180 Int�grale Pain complets et sp�ciaux

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Just to add, that french bread isn't really fluffy! It's light, but quite dry in comparison to english bread - I don't know what american breads are like - only had toast once or twice on holiday!
A baguette is light as air, tasty and crispy. If you buy one in the morning, it won't be really good for dinner - you'll need a fresh one, ideally. Baguette de campagne keep longer. Un Pain will keep a bit better too.
There are also many flat type loaves, moulded loaves, rye bread, etc..... the sky's the limit when it comes to french bread - it depends what you want but rarely light and fluffy.
I hope this helps.

--King Arthur All-Purpose for a panned sourdough bread will have more than enough gluten in it to make a nice fluffy loaf of bread - without additional vital wheat gluten.

--Without a recipe, I'll have to start with the starter. If your starter doesn't double in bulk when you feed it, then your dough won't either. A good, healthy, active starter is a must.

--Did you scale the dough before placing it in the pan/s? Many people place the incorrect amount of dough in pans. How much dough in what size pans?

--Did you over-proof the dough before you panned it? To make sure your dough doesn't rise over double (and you probably want it just UNDER double for sourdough - and just under double for the loaves as well) use a dough rising bucket so you can see exactly where that will be and what your dough is doing. If you pat the dough up to the 1-quart line, you will know it has "doubled" when it reaches the 2-quart line. Dough doesn't rise to a clock, but according to the strength of the yeast, hydration of the dough, moisture in the air, and the ambient temperature.

--Sourdough just takes a LOT of time for those rises, especially if you have a cold kitchen. If you'd like to cut the time a bit, add 1/8-teaspoon SAF-Instant yeast to your bread.

-Grainlady

Regular flour should be fine. Probably either your starter wasn't active enough, or you didn't knead the dough enough. If you're kneading by hand, you need a pretty wet dough, or you'll end up with bruised knuckles and not enough gluten development. If your starter doesn't get used/fed very often, try letting the bread rise overnight. If you're using the method where you use a little bit of yeast in the dough instead of a starter, it's probably that you didn't knead it enough. (Unless your yeast was dead, in which case the dough wouldn't smell sour).

I agree with Grainlady, King Arthur all purpose should have plenty of gluten without adding any additional amounts. I use it because it's very similar in protein levels to Gold Medal and Pillsbury Bread flours.

I'm also going to point the finger at your leavening. If your sourdough wasn't active, that could have resulted in less "loft". Sourdough often takes more time to rise than copious amounts of yeast, whether instant or active dry types. And, if the loaves were nice and high when you put them in th eoven and then "fell", over-proofing is likely the culprit.

My house never goes about 55 in the winter and I find it impossible to keep a sourdough starter going in the winter.

As has been mentioned, you could add a bit of yeast and get a lighter, taller loaf more quickly.

Islay, I can't speak for the entire U.S., it's a big darned country with lots of regional differences, but in the Midwest our "farmhouse white" tends to be light, soft, sometimes slightly sweet. The commercially available bread is more like a pillow than bread, so soft it's gummy. Has about the same nutrition as a pillow too.....

Annie

Here is the Sourdough Bread Recipe I used:

Sourdough Starter:
1 package active dry yeast
2 1/2 cips warm water (110 - 115 degrees)
2 cups all_purpose flour (I used King Arthur All-Purpose)
1 Tbsp sugar

Dissolve yeast in 1/2 cup water. Stir in remaining 2 cups water, the flour, and sugar. Beat till smooth. Cover with a cheesecloth (I used a dish towel). Let stand at room temp. for 5 to 10 days or till bubbly; stir 2 - 3 times each day. (since fermentation time depends on warm temp. I placed the starter in the laundry room, warmest room). At day 5 I started my bread.

Sourdough Bread:
1 cup Starter
1 package active dry yeast
1 1/2 cups warm water (110 - 115 degrees)
5 1/2 to 6 cups all-purpose flour ( I used King Arthur)
2 tsp salt
2 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp baking soda

Using room temperature starter, in a large bowl dissolve yeast in water. Stir in 2 1/2 cups flour, salt, sugar, and starter. Combine 2 1/1 cups flour and baking soda; stir into sourdough mixture (I dded directly to rest of ingredients, I did not do on side as instructions say). Stir in as much remaining flour as you can mix in with a spoon. Turn out onto lightly floured surface. Knead in enough remaining flour to make a moderate stiff dough that is smooth and elastic (6 to 8 mins total). (I did not turn out, instead I tried to knead in the large plastic bowl I was using, I kneading for about 6 mins, the dough was not smooth, seemed to be dry like the flour was not getting incorporated) Shape into a ball in a greased bowl; turn once to coat. Cover; let rise in warm place till double; 1- 1 1/2 hrs. (I let rise 2 1/2 hrs and it finally doubled). Punch down; divide in half. Cover; let rest 10 mins. Place in greased loaf pans and let rise in warm place till double; about 1 hr. ( I did this for 2, the time it took).
Bake in 400 degree oven for 35 - 40 mins (38 mins was till just starting to brown; the bread barely rose to the top of the pan).

So there you have it. This is the recipe I used and I did take the temp of the water used in dissolving the yeast, 112 degrees and 113 degrees.

I talked to my Mom about trying to bake sourdough bread. She couldn't pin point what could have went wrong. She did give me her recipe for starter for the next attempt.

Maybe someone sees something..?

Thanks.
botanical_drifter

p.s. I did not feed the starter daily. After one hr it was oozing over the sides of the glass bowl I had it in.

If your starter was oozing, it wasn't dead. And even if it had been dead, you added more yeast to the dough. Not enough gluten development. Are you kneading by hand?

Hi Jessica,

Yes, I was kneading by hand inside the bowl...

I really would like to make breads and pastries.

botanical_drifter

I would suggest starting your bread making with a non-sourdough basic loaf. Once you've managed yeast dough a few times and feel confident about it, then try some sourdough recipes.

It's certainly possible. Some things that helped me are letting the dough rest for 8 minutes or so in between bouts of kneading (it gets stretchier and easier to knead) and putting the bowl on a stool at waist level (gravity/leverage helps). Sometimes I'd even mix the liquid and half the flour and mix it with a hand mixer before adding the rest of the flour by hand.

I agree, you may have to knead the bread longer and more vigorously. I use a bread machine nowto make the dough, and then bake, because of carpal tunnel issues, but I made all my bread by hand for about 40 years or so.

It's about impossible to knead bread too much, so if you think it's ready, knead it some more, and see if it helps.

I do agree, though, that it's easier to make a coventional yeast loaf first and when you get the "feel", progress to sourdough.

Annie

I agree, you may have to knead the bread longer and more vigorously. I use a bread machine nowto make the dough, and then bake, because of carpal tunnel issues, but I made all my bread by hand for about 40 years or so.

It's about impossible to knead bread too much, so if you think it's ready, knead it some more, and see if it helps.

I do agree, though, that it's easier to make a coventional yeast loaf first and when you get the "feel", progress to sourdough.

Annie

Thanks for the input. I will try that next time.

Oh, so for practice with basic bread recipes, is Banana Bread a good place to start? Any good recipes?

Thanks.

botanical_drifter

BD, is your banana bread a yeast bread? My version of banana bread is a quick bread, more like a cake than a yeast loaf.

No, I meant a plain white loaf with yeast, whether it be a light and fluffy sandwich type loaf or a more rustic kind of french or italian bread, the only difference is that those basic recipes use packaged yeast rather than depending on sourdough as leavening. Sourdough can be rather temperamental...

Here's a farmhouse white that I've been making since I was 7 (nearly 50 years). It was the recipe my Grandmother used before that, so it's been around a long time. It's slightly sweet, rich and eggy, makes magnificent cinnamon rolls.

BREAD (GRANDMAâÂÂS RECIPE)

1/3 cup sugar
1 cup milk
1/3 cup butter
2 eggs
1 pkg yeast
1 tsp salt
4 ��" 4 1/2 cups flour

Mix milk, butter and sugar, heat until butter melts and liquid is very warm. Add eggs, then beat in flour, salt and yeast until stiff dough forms. Turn onto floured surface and knead until smooth and elastic, 7 ��" 8 minutes. Turn dough into greased bowl and let rise in warm place until double. Punch down dough, shape into loaves or dinner rolls and let rise again. Bake at 350 until done (25 - 30 minutes for loaves, 12-15 minutes for dinner rolls)

Makes 1 large or two small loaves or 18 dinner rolls

If you'd prefer a plain white loaf, very basic, you can't go wrong with Julia Child's French Bread.

If you like the long and involved instructions, there are bread tutorials in the FAQ section here. They mostly make my eyes glaze over but that's just me, others like the very detailed approach.

Annie

Thanks Annie,
For the recipe. Will have to try it when I get my nerve back up. lol Wonder if this would make good hamburger/sandwhich rolls? A part-time summer job was working the bakery of a burger joint. We made the buns from scratch every morning. Hot Dog buns too. ...and choc chip cookies.

Oh, a plain white yeast loaf may be easier to make?

Thanks again. I appreciate you sharing a family recipe with me, a perfect stranger. :0)

botanical_drifter

BD, you aren't a "perfect stranger", you're on the cooking forum, you're a virtual friend! Welcome to the forum.

A loaf with commercial yeast is not necessarily easier than sourdough, but it's sometimes more consistent. Commerically available yeast tends to act consistently, where sourdough has a mind of its own and seems impacted more by other factors like temperature and altitude.

Another point, be sure to handle your risen dough carefully, don't thunk it around or it'll sink. Yeah, I've done that too...

Oh, and that recipe makes really good hamburger buns and a passable calzone too. the kids like it best as cinnamon rolls or as the dough in mnkey bread. the grandkids will eat dinner rolls made from this dough without any butter or jam, because it's slightly sweet and a kind of rich dough.

Annie

Thanks Annie.

botanical_drifter

Hi Annie,

I tired the recipe, you shared, today and it came out great! Thanks again.

botanical_drifter

Annie, it startles me that your house is so cold. Is it really that cold inside your home?
Don't you have a wood stove or something to huddle around? How do you get warm?
I would have to wear a parka inside with it that cold.

Our house is about 68 in winter and I carry around the little electric heater or crank the gas fireplace up.

Annie,

I have to ask how to use the recipe in making Cinnamon Rolls?

Hope you are staying warm.

Thanks,

botanical_drifter