Do you have a good quality food processor?
I don't have a bread machine....but I will mix up the dough in the cuisinart...boil a 2 cup measure of water in the microwave ( Pyrex by the way...bought 2 years ago as I dashed my old one onto the tile floor! This one hasn't exploded yet!)
And when the micro is steamy put the covered bowl into the micro and let it rise...punch down, rise again....form into desired shape...rise again and bake.
Works for me and with stuff I already have.
Linda C

1. The dough cycle will take your ingredients through the first rise. You'll be ready to punch it down and form it for the last proofing. Personally, I don't trust a "timed" rise because of the types of breads I make, so I take the dough out as soon as it's done kneading. Place the dough in a dough rising bucket and monitor the rise myself. Because I use mostly freshly-milled flour, it generally doesn't have the extensibility white flour breads have. I only let my dough rise to just under "double". Even bleached and unbleached flour doesn't have the extensibility it used to have when "double" was the "norm", because it is no longer bromated. I make a wide variety of breads in my bread machine - English Muffins, flat breads, pizza dough, sourdough, Artisan loaves, speciality breads...

2. You won't need me to judge your breads, BUT, in side-by-side tests on whole wheat bread, King Arthur Test Kitchens used a stand mixer and a Zojirushi Bread Machine using the same recipe to make the dough, baked in a loaf pan in an oven. King Arthur used to show this in their catalogs. The Zo loaf was nearly an inch taller than the loaf mixed in a stand mixer. Stand mixers tend to aerate dough more than a Zo. I read that information in "BREAD - A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes" by Jeffrey Hamelman - Director of the Bakery and Baking Education Center, King Arthur Flour.

The Zo works so well for dough that the King Arthur Test Kitchen uses it for making THEIR dough. The Zo beats by-hand OR a stand mixer according to THEIR tests....

3. I incorporate the same bread science I utilize when making bread by-hand or in a bread machine. I always check the hydration shortly after the ingredients get mixed together and kneading begins. All the bread machine cook books in my collection ALSO suggest this. I add certain ingredients, NOT according to the simple LOAD-AND-GO bread machine method, but according to what type of bread I'm making. Yes, even a child can make a simple loaf of bread in a bread machine, but I'm using mine for more than a loaf of white bread. I use an overnight sponge for 100% whole wheat bread, so I set the machine to MY requirements, not to the pre-programed cycles. I will often do a "windowpane" test to see if the gluten is developed, just like when I make bread by hand, and I may stop the machine before it's done kneading. When I make test bread with extremely high protein wheat (16%) for a mill outside of town, it takes longer to knead, so I'll have to adjust times for that.

4. Ingredient amounts in bread recipes are just good (or bad) guesses, whether you are making it by hand or in a bread machine or stand mixer. Because the hydration-soaking gluten in flour is different from brand-to-brand, and bag to bag; as well as the amount of moisture in the flour from storage, you NEVER go by "exact measurements" - even for a bread machine. You will start with the recipe, but adjust it accordingly.

5. We typically use one 1-pound loaf of bread per week, but I will make at least 2-pounds (or more) of dough in my Zo and make a loaf (or two or three loaves and freeze the extra) OR, I'll make other things out of the extra dough. I might make an 8-inch pan of dinner rolls, 6 hamburger buns, 6 hot dog buns, 6 cinnamon or pecan rolls, in addition to one loaf of bread. All those items get wrapped in pop-up foil sheets and frozen.

There is the old original S-15, which is a bucket-style that make 1-pound of bread (4-cup flour capacity). I have friends who use this machine 1-2 times a week and have for 16-years for mostly 100% whole wheat bread using freshly-milled flour.

V-20 - still available and an excellent machine - 5-cup capacity (you can use recipes that have larger amounts of flour BUT you must remove the dough to rise outside the machine). I wore one of these out and promptly replaced it with another one. A few weeks later they came out with the X-20, which I now use and have my #2 old V-20 in storage. There are times I use both machines during "baking marathons".

X-20 - Similar to the V-20, but with a few more "bells and whistles".

The Mini Zo will make a 1-pound loaf from dough to loaf (baked in the machine), and will make up to 1-1/2 pound loaf - DOUGH ONLY. Smaller profile than the V-20 or the X-20.

-Grainlady

I use the dough cycle in the Zojirushi because it does a better job than the KitchenAid mixer and I don't worry about dough climbing hooks, etc.

I like that I can put in the wet ingredients, add the dry ones and go away for a while. I don't scald milk or proof yeast or warm anything, I put in the liquid, then the dry, then push "dough". I don't take it for granted, though, because different recipes on different days with different flours all act differently. Sometimes my honey wheat needs more liquid, sometimes less. Sometimes it rises in less time, sometimes it takes longer. Dough is a living thing and behaves like a living thing, it is not consistent. Precise measurements and weights just don't work with bread all the time. I let the machine got through the preheat and listen for it to start the knead process. A couple of minutes in, I check the dough to see if it looks dry or too wet, adjust with more liquid or more flour if necessary, let it go a bit longer and check again. I like dough a bit more "wet" than dry".

As Grainlady mentioned, King Arthur Flour has tested doughs using various techniques and the "best" results according to them was with the bread machine.

I don't eat a lot of bread either, but I make bread about twice a week. My bread dough often does "double duty". If I'm making Frisian Bread for Makayla, she'll get a loaf and I'll make a batch of cinnamon rolls for the office. Or a batch of honey wheat can be bread for Ashley's sandwiches as well as dinner rolls or even hamburger buns. Somehow someone always wants the extra, LOL.

Homemade bread doesn't have the preservatives and such of store bought bread, though, and so it stales more quickly. That's why I bake at least twice a week. The ends of the loaves get recycled into bread crumbs, croutons, bread pudding or french toast.

Annie

FOAS:
What's wrong with using the KA Mixer ?
And putting the dough back in a deep bowl, with a damp towel covering it.
Place it in a warm oven, not hot.
Put a pan of hot water on the bottom shelf.
Dough should rise in about 1/2 hour or so.
Lou

LindaC:
Thanks for your little comments.
I thought the Pyrex thing was settled.
Why do you insist on putting in your little ditties.
It's been going on now, over 2 years, that you have been doing this.
I don't think you've ever proven me wrong.
I don't really care anymore.
Just sick of it.

I would like to Post and help someone, maybe and have a little fun.
Please find someone else to vent your frustrations on.
I have enough problems to worry about and would like to enjoy the CF.
Thanks,Lou

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions.

It sounds to me that I should probably try putting out a decent loaf before I invest in a machine that might help me put out a better loaf.

I figure both my food processor and stand mixer should handle a pound of regular dough no problem - I make more than a pound of pizza dough in each - so I'll begin playing with those.

Thanks again!

FOAS I just want to see you 'put out'

(darfc)

I'm another Zo owner waxing euphoric over the machine. The instructions even say you can bake meatloaf...my family is currently drooling over an Italian version I've been making, so I might try that next.

FOAS, I have used all three to make bread and prefer my bread machine. I love the dump and run feature! I just dump in all the ingredients and come back two hours later to nicely risen dough. The only baby sitting I do is to test for consistency a few minutes after the mixing process has started. That's when I do the "touch" thing and decide if I need more liquid or more flour. I particularly like that it provides the perfect temp for rising the dough. To me getting the right conditions for rising the dough was my biggest challenge. The bread machine takes that issue off the table.

I only use the dough cycle and then hand form and bake off in the oven. I use it for bread, pizza dough, sticky buns...everything requiring yeast.

I'm sure my bread would not measure up to many bread bakers but it gets lots of raves in this house!

Thanks again for the advice. What I'd really love is if someone could point me to a simple, relatively foolproof recipe to start out with. Like I said I've got FP an KA, and hands though kneading kills my wrists for some reason. I've got a couple different loaf pans or can go freeform on a baking stone. Suggestions? Remember, you're talking to someone who can't get a simple "perfect every time" high roast bird to come out right!

p.s. Jessy - careful or I'll post the dream I had about you last week. No I'm not kidding. I got a good laugh out of it; almost emailed you then thought the better of it...

FOAS:
Are you sure all your ingedients are not outdated.

It seems like you are having trouble with very simple things. Like the Dough rising etc.

I've tried to help as much as I could but you keep wandering off on tangents.

Go back to the Basic Dough Recipe to find out the cause, of the problems, if any
and get that working right.
Then we can go from there, I'll help if I can.

There is no reason, why your first attempt shouldn't have worked.?????

To me, it don't make sense to invest in a lot of expensive equiptment, for a few loaves of Bread.

LOU

Thanks for the vote of confidence Lou - You're diagnosing my problems before I even have them!!! I've never made a bad loaf of bread. In fact I've never made ANY loaf of bread! I'm just looking for some advice to get me started.

Does the Zo let you adjust the temperature of the first rise?

p.s. Jessy - careful or I'll post the dream I had about you last week. No I'm not kidding. I got a good laugh out of it; almost emailed you then thought the better of it...

........

FOAS:
Sorry, I thought you had problems a little while back, with the dough not rising.
Gave some good advice then and Recipes. Thought I was helping.
LOU

CC, my Zo does not have an adjustment for the first rise, I'm assuming the thermostat automatically adjusts to the internal temperature of the machine, and that's only an assumption.

FOAS, what would you like for a basic bread recipe? Something like a plain french baguette? Or a sweeter eggier farmhouse white? Even honey wheat?

How I bake the loaves depends on the crust I want. If I want crusty baguettes, I shape the loaves and bake them freeform on a hot baking sheet. Many here use baking stones.

If I want a tender crust and some white sandwich type bread, I use Grandma's old farmhouse white recipe, with milk and eggs or Sol's recipe for Hnoey rolls:

Personally, I really like honey wheat, so that's what I make most of and sometimes I make free formed round loaves with lots of crust and sometimes I bake it in loaf pans for sandwich slices and toast.

If I want a soft crust I brust with melted butter when it comes hot from the oven, if I want a crusty loaf I spritz it with some water a couple of times while baking. I know Ann T sprays her oven with water, and she uses a stone to get the proper heat and humidity.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here are the recipes I use for those basic things:

HONEY WHOLE WHEAT BREAD
INGREDIENTS:
3-1/2 to 4 cups all purpose flour
 2-1/2 cups whole wheat flour
 2 pkg. active dry yeast
 2 tsp. salt
 1 cup milk
 1 cup water
 1/2 cup honey
 3 Tbsp. oil
 1 egg
PREPARATION:
In large bowl, combine 2 cups all-purpose flour, 1 cup whole wheat flour, the yeast, and salt and mix well.
In saucepan, heat milk, water, honey, and oil until a thermometer reads 120-130 degrees F (warm)

Add liquid mixture to flour mixture and stir to combine. Beat this batter for 3 minutes. Then, gradually stir in rest of whole wheat flour and enough remaining all-purpose four to form a firm dough.

Sprinkle work surface with flour and knead dough, adding more flour if necessary, for 5-8 minutes until smooth and satiny. Place dough in a greased bowl, turning the dough in the bowl to grease the top. Cover and let rise in a warm place about 1 hour, until double in bulk.

Punch down dough and divide into 2 pieces. On lightly floured surface, roll or press each piece of dough to a 14x7" rectangle. Starting with shorter side, roll up tightly, pressing dough into roll with each turn. Pinch edges and ends to seal and place dough, seam-side down, into greased 9x5" bread pans, making sure short ends of bread are snugly fitted against the sides of the pans. Cover and let rise in warm place until the dough fills the corners of the pans and is double in bulk, 30-40 minutes.
Bake in preheated 375 degree oven for 35-40 minutes, until bread is golden brown. Remove from pans and cool on wire racks. I like to brush the bread with butter when it's still hot from the oven for a softer crust.

BREAD (GRANDMAÂS RECIPE)

1/3 cup sugar
1 cup milk
1/3 cup butter
2 eggs
1 pkg yeast
1 tsp salt
4 Â 4 1/2 cups flour
vital wheat gluten (optional)

Mix milk, butter and sugar, heat until butter melts and liquid is very warm. Add eggs, then beat in flour, salt and yeast until stiff dough forms. Turn onto floured surface and knead until smooth and elastic, 7 Â 8 minutes. Turn dough into greased bowl and let rise in warm place until double. Punch down dough, shape into loaves or dinner rolls and let rise again. Bake at 350 until done (25 - 30 minutes for loaves, 12-15 minutes for dinner rolls)

Makes 1 large or two small loaves or 18 dinner rolls

BREADMAKER INSTRUCTIONS:

Heat milk, butter and sugar. Place two eggs in bread pan, add liquid. On top of liquid place flour, salt and vital wheat gluten. Make a well in the dry ingredients and pour yeast in well. Do not allow it to contact wet ingredients. Process as for dough, or allow machine to bake.

Honey Rolls
1 cup milk
1/2 cup honey
1/2 cup butter [1 stick]
2 teaspoos salt
1-2 tablespoons granulated sugar*
2 pkges. dry yeast
1/2 cup warm water [110º-115ºF]
2 large eggs, lightly beaten
6 - 6 1/2 cups AP flour
Heat the milk, add butter and salt. Set aside while butter melts. Stir in the honey.

In another bowl, combine the warm water, yeast and sugar. Let it sit until yeast is completely dissolved, about 6-7 minutes.

Combine milk mixture with yeast mixture. And stir in the beaten eggs. Beat in 4 cups flour. Add enough remaining flour to make a soft, but not sticky dough.

Place dough in greased bowl, turning to coat both sides. Cover and allow dough to rise 1 hour. Punch dough down, and allow to rise another hour.

Punch down again, and shape dough into rolls. Let it rise again 45 minutes to an hour or until doubled in volume. Preheat your oven to 375ºF and bake rolls for 25 minutes or until a deep golden brown. For a very soft crust, brush rolls with melted butter as soon as they come out of the oven.

Note: You could omit the sugar from this recipe altogether. I sometimes use about a teaspoon of the honey called for in the recipe to feed the yeast instead of the sugar.

Finally, here's one that's especially targeted at the food processor, if you want to try it. It was simple, came out fine, but I liked the one I made with the bread machine better, the interior texture was "holier", if you get my drift. It goes without saying that I didn't proof the yeast, and I do have french bread pans. The dough is pretty "slack", so if you don't have french bread pans you'll need a "baker's couche". I understand that the canvas in a real couche absorbs some moisture and makes the bread crustier. I've used parchment paper to "prop up" the loaves and it works, and I've baked these freeform and it also works but my loaf tends to flatten out. I don't really care, but it's not the traditional shape, LOL.

French Bread in the Food Processor

4 cups unbleached all-purpose flour
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1 teaspoon distilled white vinegar
2 teaspoons active dry yeast (from a 1/4-oz package)
1 2/3 cups warm water (105-115°F)
1 tablespoon olive oil

Pulse flour, salt, and vinegar in a food processor to combine.

Stir together yeast and 1/3 cup water in a small bowl until yeast is dissolved, then let stand until foamy, about 5 minutes. (If mixture doesn't foam, discard and start over with new yeast.) With motor running, pour yeast mixture and remaining 1 1/3 cups warm water into flour mixture in processor, blending until dough forms a ball and pulls away from side of processor bowl, about 1 minute.

Cover processor feed tube and let dough rise until it fills bowl, about 1 hour. Pulse several times to deflate dough.

Generously oil bread pans with olive oil.

Turn out dough onto a work surface and divide in half (dough will be very soft). Press 1 half into a 10- by 8-inch rectangle and fold in the 2 short outer sides to meet in the middle, pinching edges together. Turn over (seam side down), then roll and stretch into a 15-inch-long irregular loaf. Put loaf, seam side up, in bread pan and turn to coat with oil, leaving loaf seam side down.

Repeat procedure with remaining dough. Let loaves rise, uncovered, in a warm draft-free place 30 minutes.

Put oven rack in upper third of oven, then put a large roasting pan with 1 inch of water in it on bottom of gas oven or on lowest rack of electric oven. Preheat oven to 450°F.

Make 3 shallow diagonal slashes down length of each loaf with razor. Bake loaves 30 minutes, then carefully remove pan of water from oven. Remove bread from pans and turn upside down on upper oven rack, then bake until golden and crusty all over, about 5 minutes more. Cool loaves on a rack.

Good luck. Don't forget that if your water is too hot, you'll kill the yeast. If you think it the dough needs to be kneaded more, it does. More better than less, when kneading bread. Oh, and if you want to rip that end chunk off hot from the oven, go ahead. It's your bread, but there is a difference in taste and texture if you let it cool a bit.

Annie

Thanks, Annie. I was just wondering how warm that rise is.
I'm considering a bread machine because my hands are getting more troublesome. I could just use the machine to mix and not raise at all, of course.