What argument? I think that is the problem. Why argue the point?

The experts are not wrong. They, nor I, are not arguing with you over this issue. Perhaps you are arguing to defend your position. In fact, if you weren't so ready to argue, and read what Barb said, you may have realized that she had drawn some reasonable understandings and has reached a conclusion about how to take care of her own pans. At which point you might have also read my comment as tongue-in-cheek.

Again, each person needs to use their pans in their own way, but the 'experts' are talking to all users, who all use their pans differently from one another. If you read what Lodge says closely, it is clear that for some people, soap will be used. It is also clear that soap is not necessary. When an 'expert' says that to protect the seasoning, do not use soap, they are speaking in general terms to every user regardless of circumstance. How hard it that to understand?

If you don't use soaps, detergents, acids, nor caustics, there is no reason to keep redoing your seasoning. If you personally don't mind redoing your seasoning, then by all means, do whatever you like.

A large part of determining when to do what, depends on what you cook, and as plllog said, how you seasoned in the first place. The experts are not going into detail with every food used, or how every person uses their pans when they issue their recommendations. They are simply providing a guideline to protect the seasoning. If you think that you know better than the experts, then do as you wish. I promise that helicopters will not come out of the sky to come get you.

However, when offering advice to the novice, unless the subject from an 'expert' is discussing specifics, as I said earlier, the responsible thing to do is err on the side of responsibility.

Just a simple example... If I cook with tomato sauce, vinegar, or other similar acids in my cast iron, which I personally do not do, then try to clean it with soaps, the seasoning can be damaged. Can it be repaired? Again as I said earlier... yes. However, if I didn't use soap, the seasoning may survive just fine.

I have no idea why you want to argue, the point is simple... and while I loathe getting personal, you are not an expert. In given the choice to listen to some anonymous person on the internet, or an 'expert' offering advice, hopefully most people will err to the expert... at least until they have experience. It will certainly save them potential extra effort.

The good thing about cast iron, unless you break it, it is very forgiving. I have one pan that is used for nothing but grill cheeses and veggie burgers. It almost never sees water at all. I think it has had to be washed twice in 10 years. Do you think that's bad? I don't. Why, because it's my kitchen, and I have no need to listen to anonymous people on the internet who have a difficult time understanding why experts carry more responsibility with their words.

"If you don't use soaps, detergents, acids, nor caustics, there is no
reason to keep redoing your seasoning. If you personally don't mind
redoing your seasoning, then by all means, do whatever you like."

It has been pointed out to you by more than one person here, that there is no need to redo seasoning because washing in soap and water does NOT remove seasoning. And they are speaking from experience. Many, many years of experience in some cases.

More than one person here has linked to "experts" who say it is okay to use soap.

"Why, because it's my kitchen, and I have no need to listen to anonymous
people on the internet who have a difficult time understanding why
experts carry more responsibility with their words."

This is one statement you have made that I can agree with. You seem to have a difficult time understanding that not all experts agree with you.

The point is....Dr. Oz is not an expert....on anything but Talk Shows. He has been accused of lies, fraud, conflict of interest and bogus science. he has been called before the Senate's consumer protection panel for his statements about a "miracle weight loss solution"...that of course he has a stake in.
Be very careful what "expert" you defend.

Can you please point to where I have even intonated that all experts agree with me, or that I agree with them? I have repeatedly said that every person can do whatever they want to their own pans in their own kitchens. I have no idea why you feel the need to put yourself, or this forum above those who offer 'expert' recommendations in a responsible manner, but it is very ugly. Why put them down? They are not wrong. It is a general statement covering all people and all uses. I guess it is human nature though. Putting others down makes us feel better about ourselves.

Hopefully the final word from me will be the same thing I have said all along...

If you want to protect your seasoning, do not use soaps, detergents, acids, or caustics on your cast iron pans. The experts are not 'wrong' in giving this solid advice. However, it is your kitchen, and your pans, if you choose go ahead and do whatever you like, cast iron is very forgiving.

linda, I agree, and have said the same above. The only thing I have questioned, is not the use of soaps, it's the blanket statement that 'the experts are wrong'.

And to top off the discussion, the original poster doesn't care about experts or not, she only wants to know what we do. And that's what we've told her, with very few differing opinions. Of course, the experts said for years that margarine was healthy, that we shouldn't eat eggs and, less recently, that the earth was flat. Those things were all wrong, of course, as time passed and history proved them incorrect. So, I take what "experts" say with a grain of salt, and use what works for me.

I do admit that I have a large "chicken fryer" that I use for tomato products, and I do it on purpose, so that the iron will leach out into the food and thus into my system, bumping up my iron levels without the need for supplements. This came from a real expert, my own family doctor. After cooking a big batch of chili I wash it well and use it to fry a batch of French fries when the grandkids are over. Just like that, re-seasoned! Sometimes I have to do two batches, though, or one of French fries and one of donuts, and the kids are SOOOOO disappointed, LOL.

Annie

Being more interested in actual folks experiences and applications than point driving, I can say that I am having a devil of a time getting a good non stick finish on my three year old CI pan. It's because of the rough finish I'm pretty sure. I have followed all the "expert" seasoning advice. Maybe that's the reason for the discrepancy of opinions on how careful you have to be of the finish, a newer pan seems to have a more fragile finish than my older ones. It gets sticky and gooey at the drop of a hat too.

The only expert opinion offered on this discussion was a quote from Dr Oz....and it's well documented that he is no expert.
Why don't you tell us how many cast Iron cooking vessels you have, how long you have had them, how you use them and most importantly how you clean them?...Or do you have any experience at all with cast iron pans....or cooking for that matter?

LindaC, I disagree. I offered the statement from the Lodge Cast Iron company, pulled directly from their website, which specifically stated that using soap was OK. I think they are as close to experts in cast iron as I can think of.

Annie

My Mom had a small iron skillet that she fried chicken in and I tell you, she made the best fried chicken that I have before or since tasted. I don't care what she did in it and never questioned whether she did or did not wash it. It was just "finger-licken" good chicken. Barb

I think we can agree that it's a choice, not a rule weather one uses soap or not.

Can you use soap? Yes. Do you need to use soap? No, at least not regularly.

Must you never use soap? Never say never.

I only use soap, (and very little) on the infrequent occasion it needs it.That's my choice.

Much like the ubiquitous question on the kitchen forum; Do you oil your soapstone? While I choose not to, or very rarely oil my soapstone, many others oil frequently.

No right or wrong, just different choice.

Now, let's gat back to cooking...

...and pinkmountain, do yourself a favor and donate that three year old pan to a charity, and go out and find some good vintage Griswold, Wagner, Vollrath, Wapak, etc.

You'll be in non stick heaven ;)

As I said, probably both opinions are valid.

There must be more then one kind of seasoned coating. Depending on what kind of oil or fat is used. Depending on temperature the coating is applied, depending on the composition of cast iron.

Many sources said to use mild soap. What is mild soap? Soap is made with fat and sodium hydroxide which is one of the most corrosive chemical around. How mild is mild?

Many "mild" soaps have other non-soap chemicals. Who knows what they can do.

Do what works for you.

I have been told more than once to wash my mouth with soap. May be I can use that soap :-) :-).

dcarch

This discussion has happened before......and a "real expert"...unlike some other "experts" who have been quoted, weighed in....I will copy and paste his post here.....He is a chemist and knows what he's talking about.

"As I stated above patina development is a two part process. Part 1 involves the polymerization of the unsaturated oils/fats in the curing oil. Part 2 involves the thermal cracking of the oil/fat and actual carbon laydown into the matrix.

These two patina developing mechanisms can take place independantly of each other or can occur almost at the same time........it just depends on the conditions at the time of the curing process. Factors affecting rates of patina development reactions include 1) concentration of unsaturated fats 2) concentration of saturated fats 3) temperature 4) pressure 5) pot metal metalurgy (catalyst affects) 6) Conradson carbon residue content of the curing oil or fat. It can get rather complicated (boring?) if I try to go into too many details. However, the seasoning process itself is not complicated at all if you follow good procedures. More on that later.........

Regarding Polymerization: Polymerization simply is a chemical reaction whereby molecules contained in unstable unsaturated (double bonded carbon atoms) oils or fats combine or crosslink with other molecules to form other more stable compounds with very different chemical and physical properties. Our goal in the curing process is to control these polymerization reactions in such a manner that they produce polymers with physical properties that are good for cooking purposes (i.e. a non-stick, hard, durable patina).

1 )The rate of these polymerization reactions are very much dependant on type of oil, curing temperature, and the chemical compositon of the metal surface.

2) The chemical and physical properties of the polymer formed is also very much dependant on type of oil, temperature, and metal surface.

One example of a polymerized oil is the "STICKY" residue some people complain about in their cast iron pans. This is usually caused by coating cast iron with oil which is high in unsaturated fats (vegetable oils) and keeping the temperature rather low. A problem with this situation is that this type of polymer residue is also prone to further oxidation (because all of the double bonds have not been saturated). This means it can turn rancid as oxygen gets into the polymer matrix. Another unfortunate physical property of this type of patina is that it is totally worthless for non-stick cooking.

To properly cure cast iron we need to push the polymerization reactions beyond the "sticky" stage and more towards the "dryer" stage.........and that my friend requires the right amount of heat.

Cooks complain they cannot remove sticky polymerized mess even with soaps and detergents. They cannot remove it because polymerized oily residue is a completely different product than that of the mother oil. Soaps/detergents will remove excess mother oil but will not remove the sticky polymers.

To keep a cast iron pan from getting sticky.......don't use excess vegetable oil to coat that pan.......or use a more stable saturated fat like lard or crisco. Remember putting a thin layer of oil on cast iron to form a "protective coating" is one thing.....however, if you want to use that oil to "build patina"..........you must heat it.

Regarding soap residue............soap/detergents WILL NOT CLING to a properly cured and cleaned pan. I'll get into more details on this later when I discuss what I think are proper cleaning and curing procedures.

FYI I have never used grape seed oil to cure cast iron. A line in your article (regarding having to clean up oil splatter QUICKLY after frying foods in grape seed oil otherwise it is very difficut to clean up the splatter)really grabbed my attention. What your observation tells me is that grape seed oil is higher in unsaturated fats than the other oils you have used for frying. The splatter is hard to clean up because it polymerizes quickly. This property of grape seed oil may be the reason you find it works well for seasoning.

I have a recently cleaned cast iron dutch oven and a small kettle than need seasoning. I will use grape seed oil to cure them and will make observations and comparisons to the methods I usually use.

Dan

1 Like Bookmark March 24, 200

Too many comments for me to read them all, but I just want to say that I have over 100 pieces of cast iron cookware. I inherited my mother's, my grandmother's and my sister's. Plus, I bought lots more. A well seasoned cast iron pan is like black glass. I wash every one of mine with soap and water. The main thing is to dry it well, which I do by sitting it on the stove to finish drying. I have never, ever, ever ruined a seasoned cast iron skillet or griddle or any pan by washing it. I don't coat them with anything when I store them either. And never, ever, ever use Pam or a cooking spray on them, which is like a lacquer over time. When I would get a new (new to me...all bought second hand) pan, I would re-season it and I usually make a point to use bacon grease to do that.

Linda, Many thanks for reposting Dan's remarks. That was very interesting and I learned a lot!

Yeah, I have read about the polymerization and messed around with trying to develop the patina, the right type of oil, the right temp, etc., and so far, with my new pan, no such luck.

I agree with cookncarpenter, lpink. Ditch the lousy new pan and get yourself an old Wagner/Griswold/Vollrath/et. al. You'll be happier.

In the alternative, scrub your new pan to get rid of your current "gunk", and start again. I like lard for seasoning, many people say nothing is better than bacon fat, but that's just smoked pig fat. Anyway....

The best way I've found to season a pan is to use it. The more greasy stuff you cook in them, the better they get. How about some duck fat fries? Yum...

Annie

I don't know how to link, but if you are really serious and want to spend the time go to sherylcanter.com and read her science based experience and how to season cast iron. I have purchased and given as gifts several vintage Griswold CI skillets. I bought these used and they all were needing a good cleaning from years of baked on crud. The first one I did with crisco, then discovered Sheryl's blog/article and have done all since with that method. Every one has turned out beautifully, with a feel smooth as glass. It is important that you follow the directions exactly if you want the same results. Many comments follow her article from people who have used her method.

When you read this you'll understand why a little soap and water isn't able to ruin the seasoning on cast iron.

Edited to add: when you go to the hi-lighted green link, you have to go to bottom of page and go into her blog and then go to her article on: "Black Rust" and cast iron seasoning. Sorry I'm so electronically challenged!

I may futz with my new pan a little more, to try and give it that wonderful patina, but like I said, when you are starting with the pebbly newer casting, I'm not sure if the same advice holds true for the new as does the old. I have three older ones, and their patina is fine, so it's not really that big of an issue. Unfortunately, I am just not much of an oil fryer. I have just been using the newer pan and hoping that the mix of oils I use and the repeated exposure to heat will develop a good patina, but so far, meh. Considering all I am dealing with in my life, a patina on one particular pan may NEVER reach my priority list, lol!

Lpink, your pebbly new pan will acquire a smooth slick surface. It takes a while, and actually is not as pretty as the patina on older pans. It will be almost, if not as, slick as an old pan, eventually. ,

Reading those science-based articles on developing a good seasoning, and how few people do/have done it properly (if the new pans will even take that type of seasoning) you might begin to understand why 'the experts' don't recommend soap, detergents, acids, or caustics to the general public or novice users.

As I said above, unless an expert is getting into specifics (such as these discussions about how to properly season a cast iron pan) the responsible, simple, one sentence recommendation is not to use soaps, detergents, acids, or caustics when a little salt , or a chain, or cleaning brush can do ya.

If however, you've learned how to properly season your own pan, in your own kitchen, with consideration of the way you use your utensils, then you've more than likely already learned how to clean cast iron, and why you would or would not choose certain cleaners at any particular time. Pans are not made from the same purity, or blend of metals and elements. As Dan said on that long thread, his seasoning temps, for example, were specific for a style of pan for which he had experience - and that he was still experimenting. His procedures for a properly seasoned pan that would hold up to soaps and detergents were intricate. He even discussed why seasoning would have to be different if you used your pans on open fires; and the need for heat drying whenever pans were cleaned with water.

He also spoke of the 'responsibility factor' used by manufacturers when giving advice on seasoning and cleaning pans. It takes a lesson to learn how to properly prepare cast iron. Again, this is why the 'experts' are not 'wrong'. Because everyone does things differently in their own kitchens, with their own pans, and 'experts' (whatever that word means from case to case) are, in many cases, catering short bits of advice to a general audience, not just to those who have engineered a proper seasoning and have experience in maintaining cast iron.

Now that the discussion has properly turned from the basics, and everyone who has read the addendum articles knows how to put a resistant seasoning on their cast iron, and how to maintain that seasoning, now it is time to discuss why polymers (because not everyone has developed polymers on their pans, especially a novice who has not yet even learned how to properly season) can withstand cleaners. Yet... you still should be careful to use mild products.

Better yet... if you have learned to do it right, and have gained experience, you are an expert. You have 10 secs on national television to speak to people who have never even picked up a cast iron pan, while discussing how to make a recipe. Go...

One bit of useful advice on that long thread for the pebbly pans was to repeatedly make roux.

Interesting to read Ms. Canter's exposition on polymerization! Wish I had not fallen asleep in that lecture in organic chemistry! Seemed to me like all oils could polymerize, which is why the discrepancy of oil recommendations, but that some oils would polymerize better than others. Seems to me that the same reason hydrogenated fats aren't all that great in food, would make them good for seasoning. My grapeseed oil experiment for seasoning cast iron was a great big bust, it just formed a gooey, sticky layer of "gunk" on the pan, which I had to scrub off. And I followed the directions too, with regards to technique and temperature! Anyway, someday when I have a lot of spare time on my hands, and I might actually be USING my cast iron pans for cooking, I might experiment some more, i.e. lard or crisco vs flaxseed oil. My grapeseed oil experiment has left me skeptical of flax seed, but I dunno. People use it to seal wood things for culinary use. But since I haven't any actual experience other than my failed grapeseed experiment, (with the recommended temperatures!) the rest is purely conjecture and probably not very useful to anyone here. I see that many of the comments on Ms. Canter's blog indicate mixed results, not as glorious as she was able to achieve. Again, some of that might be due to variations in quality of the pans with regards to finish and casting. She attributes some of it due to additives in the oils. So there you go, why I find science endlessly fascinating and endlessly frustrating, controlling those darn variables! :) Real scientists argue about these kinds of things all the time, in fact we weenies relish it. And rarely get offended when someone brings other or new information to the table. It's all grist for the mill!

You are all making it way too hard....rub that pan with lard, bacon fat or Crisco......put it into a hot oven for 60 minute, repeat.....and you are good to go....wash it with soap and water if it's greasy or it will stink. Many many people have seasoned pans with a beautiful polymerized finish without using flax seed oil
AND.....the experts....all of them recommend washing with soap. Plain soap and water will NOT harm a polymerized surface.

Wow, seeing Carpenter's pans make me determined to use mine more often!!!

Those having trouble, what size are your pans?. My 9inch is my most used.

Probably the best size is a small one for those new using cast iron. Look for vintage even if it needs a start-over seasoning. Mine says #6 on the handle and just says 'cast iron', made in the USA on the bottom. Baby butt smooth.

Good to find a few dishes you like to help season. Something like cornbread or thin sliced potatoes. Ruth Reichel has a good cornbread recipe we use.

Seasoning while cooking. Heating on low heat for 5-10 minutes. Very low heat. Her recipe warms the butter in the pan, then pours the melted butter into the cornbread mix...then into the hot pan (that already has a butter coating on it) and into the oven. Similar with a thin sliced potato dish. A little garlic, rosemary, parm after a few layers of potato, topped with parm...into the oven. A bit of butter and oil, (i use avocado oil) on the bottom. No cream or milk. A couple of cracked eggs on top when the potatoes are soft, then back into the oven.

Find a few dishes that will help built that seasoning layer.

My 9inch, used most often, will sear steaks, salmon, scallops, shrimp. Make a super frittata. A quiche. Endless dishes.

Or just fried eggs. :)

Fried eggs don't get the pan hot enough to polymerize the grease....or shouldn't.
My grandmother cooked everything in a smoking hot pan...literally, smoke pouring from the pan. Nothing that went into that pan was over 1/2 an inch thick, fish filets, pork chops, ham slices, potato slices, chicken pieces....fortunately she put enough chicken in the pan at one time to lower the temp enough so it did cook before it burned....
But her pans were smooooooth!!! LOL!

Oh. I did that with a carbon steel crepe pan (used it for fried eggs and watched the seasoning get better and better) and figured it would work for cast iron too.

When you burn steel, cast iron, and iron, they will turn black. That black is not seasoning.

dcarch

Interesting video at the link on how to sand/polish/machine modern cast iron to get a slick finish. Click on the link and scroll to the bottom of page for the link to the youtube video.

http://www.educatingthemodern.com/#!shop/c23gr

Ci that was a fun link you found!

Glad you liked it, Pink. I was impressed with the results that he achieved.

Tim Allen eat your heart out!!

Lindac - it's wonderful you reposted Dan's message. Now I understand how I managed to ruin a gift cast iron skillet years ago. I've shied away from cast iron ever since but now I know I can do it right. Many thanks!

A nice new design on kickstarter...

link-cast iron

I don't get the reasoning for making cast iron skillets lighter.

The so called "heat retention" quality depends on heavy weight. Otherwise less heat retention" means very poor heat conducting (bad heat recovery).

I am not even sure smooth means better non stick. Some of the best non-stick purposefully create dimples on the cook surface to minimize damage to the non-stick surface.

dcarch

I get that and understand. Yet, at an estate sale last year, DH passed up and old vintage thin one thinking it was not worthy...i snatched it up for 2 bucks. It is nice. Needs slow/low heat, then does a superior job. Yet, my slightly pebbly 8inch favorite, very heavy, will fry an egg and slip out no problem.

I don't think his is as thin as my Griswold, but i'll never know. If i did not have so many i would consider the design.

(i did have the same thought BTW)

I dunno. Maybe someday after futzing and fiddling enough, I will get my new cast iron skillet to have as great a cooking surface as grandma's old one. But for now, all I can say is the new one has been "meh" for whatever reason. Perhaps my cooking style, seriously lacking in deep frying or even moderate oil frying, is to blame. I guess fritters and home fries are in order more often on my menus, because those are the few things I fry in oil, other than the once a year latkes, and I do them in olive oil, which is not one of the recommended seasoning oils.

Dcarch, I don't remember the source, but years ago I read a very good article on cast iron metallurgy. It said that the cheaper pans were thicker because the metallurgy wasn't as good. I don't know how that translates to the cooking. Even though I grew up with old style cast iron, I mostly use enamelled (Le Creuset, which is thin) because my mother is still using hers! She just has someone else lift them for her. The Le Creuset is thinner than the cast iron they're selling new nowadays. It seems to cook as well as my mother's old cast iron, which is also thinner than the new stuff. I also have a small, old, enamelled dutch oven from my mother's kitchen, which she didn't care for, so gave me when I was in shared housing in college. None of my roommates liked it well enough to abscond with it. It's much thicker and heavier than the Le Creuset, but doesn't cook nearly as well. Perhaps there's a sweet spot between mass and responsiveness for the optimal pan.

ipink. I have never fried anything. I do sear often. Just heat it up low and slow...on your simmer burner or lowest stovetop setting for 10-15 min, then rub with a tsp of oil with a paper towel. Put it in the oven next time it is on for whatever, using the free leftover heat...just use it, and over a few dozen uses it gets better. Always heat your pan up slowly and on low. It will get hot and hold that heat. Turn it up a bit later if you need to.

I've had it for over two years, always do that, and it has gotten worse/stickier, not better. I am now using grandmas, it's fine. I have a new lodge enamel ed dutch oven that I use for almost everything now. It is big and heavy and lives on top of the stove. It gets constantly sticky on the bottom too, even with generous oiling.

The lodge gets sticky on the inside bottom? The enamel gets sticky??
Sticky is from partially polymerized oil. Vegetable oil gets sticky...things like Wesson oil and Safflower oil.

Well, yes I know that is the nature of vegetable oils. At this point, I only use olive oil, the light kind, for cooking, (sauteeing and frying) except for stir frying or rarely deep frying, when I use peanut oil. I do keep coconut oil and canola oil on hand for occasional use. Which is why if I am going to have another go at seasoning my cast iron pan I will have to buy some lard and give that a try, which I was already planning on doing for pie crusts. Right now I am in the process of moving and going through all my late mother's things, and my kitchen is tiny in this apt. that I mostly live in, so probably not til fruit pie season that I will get to this.

The only way you will get sticky is if a small puddle of oil is left in the pan. DH used to do that. He would heat the pan on the stove after rinsing to dry the water quickly, then add a dollop of oil, wipe with p-towel, but too much oil was left in the pan. (he thought more was better). If you want to season that way, it goes in the oven upside down on a sheet pan so the extra oil, very liquid when heated, will drain off the surface. Then wipe thoroughly with a towel to remove all extra oil.

If you have a sticky surface it needs to be cleaned off with a mild soap and soft scrubbie. Not vigorously, just enough to get the sticky oil off, then heat on the stove and add a tiny tsp of iol and wipe down and do the oven heating.

Anywho, we should put this on the back-burner and you'll get bake to it when you have focused time. Sounds like you have your hands full!

Couldn't resist sharing this...look what I found!

After a long search, I finally found a matching lid to one of my prized skillets; a large block logo EPU #9... a perfect mate!

.....sigh......Lucky you!!!

The Chinese invented cast iron cookware long time ago. Cast iron making is very low tech, requiring no investment in machinery and high skills to make.

With casting silicone rubber mold which can give you almost 100% details in copying, today you may find a lot of fake cast iron collectables around.

But I think yours look genuine.

dcarch

That pan is gorgeous! The lid is going to be so cool to have!