Tx linda Your suggestion of the cinnamon rolls makes sense. The recipe doesn't call for kneading. I believe I'm kneading a bit before rolling it out. Or simply working it too much.

I will try your suggestions this evening. I realize that my own experience can alter things, so I'll give it a try a few times.

Should the milk be scorched? If not, does it matter whether it's cold or at room temp?

If you could post your recipe, that would help us to help you.

Considering how many years all-purpose flour was about the only flour available to home-bakers (bread flour became available with the advent of the automatic bread machines in the 1980's), it's a perfectly good flour for making bread, and one of the best choices for making soft dinner rolls and cinnamon rolls. If you have a membership to Sam's Club, or can find someone to purchase it for you from Sam's Club, flour is generally less expensive, unless you find a really great bargain.

Baker's & Chefs All-Purpose Flour - 25# - $6.47

Gold Medal All-Purpose Flour - 10# - $4.30

Baker's & Chefs Bread Flour - 25# - $6.54

One word of caution, avoid obscure brands of flour sold at stores like Dollar General for making bread because the consistency of the brand and the gluten levels seems to be the great "unknown". I live in Kansas and we have some great Kansas flour brands like W&R milled in McPherson, KS and Hudson Cream Short Patent milled in Stafford County. Both are excellent flours and they cost less than National Brands like Gold Medal and Pillsbury.

I'm betting you mean scalded milk. The reason for this added step is to deactivate a protein found in the whey. If too much dairy is added to bread without scalding the milk, it affects the volume, symmetry, cellular structure, and the texture. I had a favorite recipe for Dill Bread that had a lot of cottage cheese in the recipe and the crust looked more like a rollercoaster ride due to the large amount of dairy.

I'll post more when I see your recipe and find some links that will help you out.

-Grainlady

Tx grainlady I buy Wal-mart's #25 Great Value. I've tried Gold Medal purchased in the smaller bags, but I really wasn't impressed by any improved quality. I live in a rural area and that's all we have except King Arthur on the shelf. I've calculated and I wouldn't be able to have enough bread on hand if I used it. Heard good things about it,but those comments are from those who now use a bread maker.

I have found inconsistency in these bags of flower, but only when it is severe. I've had a couple bags I could tell that were pretty much worthless for anything more than pull apart bread or cinnamon rolls. I'm not yet consistent with my dough for the minute change. Heck, I'm proud to be at a point where I can see the difference in flours. The #25 bag keeps me motivated to have her bread on hand all the time as it does change after sitting a while.

The recipe is approximately 5 to 6 cups of flour combined with 2 cups of water if I remember correctly. I start with the water, 1tbsp fleishmann's yeast and about 3 tbsp of sugar. When it is frothy, I add 1/4 C of olive oil and a touch of salt.

This is the recipe based upon my first best success that my family thought was tasty. It sure is a learning process.

The cinnamon rolls are from Pioneer Woman's Maple pecan cinnamon roll recipe.

Speaking of, I try to follow this recipe steps 1) heat milk, oil and sugar 2) Let cool 3) add yeast. Never works for me this way. I must always proof the yeast elsewhere.

I put the link up there if anyone is interested. (It's a good recipe,but I recommend avoiding it if you don't need the calories. I often regret learning how to make them. They freeze well.)

bon

It's not recommended to proof the yeast in a liquid containing much fat....as the milk and oil do, the fat coats the yeast and prevents it from dissolving well.
Secondly 9 cups of flour to a quart of milk and one cup of oil will make you a very batter like dough., no way will you be able to roll it out. Next she tells you to add the baking soda, BP and salt and the remaining cup of flour after the dough has risen for an hour. Unless you carefully mix the leavening with the flour you are in danger of not getting the BP and soda well mixed. And where is the acid ingredient to make the soda work? And she never says how big a bag of powdered sugar.
Ree Drummond's recipes are usually great, but this sounds untested to me.
Try this: It's still a very soft dough. You can roll it out to make cinnamon rolls but you will heed to add a bit of flour to your board as the dough is very soft.
And if you don't have buttermilk you can add 1 tsp vinegar to a cup of milk and let it stant for 30 minutes.

Angel biscuits

Ingredients

• 1 package dry yeast (about 2
  1/4 teaspoons)
• 1/4 cup warm water (100° to
  110°)
• 2 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
• 2 tablespoons sugar
• 1 teaspoon salt
• 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
• 1/2 teaspoon baking soda
• 1/4 cup chilled butter, cut
  into small pieces
• 1 cup low-fat buttermilk (1%)
• Butter-flavored cooking spra

Preparation

1. Dissolve yeast in warm water
   in a small bowl; let stand 5 minutes.
2. Lightly spoon flour into dry
   measuring cups; level with a knife. Combine flour, sugar, salt, baking
   powder, and baking soda in a large bowl. Cut in butter with a pastry
   blender or 2 knives until mixture resembles coarse meal. Add yeast mixture
   and buttermilk; stir just until moist. Cover and chill at least 2 hours or
   overnight.
3. Preheat oven to 450°.
4. Turn dough out onto a floured
   surface; knead lightly 6 times. Roll dough out to 1/2-inch thickness; cut
   with a 2 1/2-inch biscuit cutter. Place on a baking sheet coated with
   cooking spray. Spray tops lightly with cooking spray. Bake at 450° for 14
   minutes or until golden.

I'm with Linda when it comes to proofing yeast in milk and or milk/oil mixture....and for the same reasons she gave. It's one of those bread science "rules" I teach in my bread classes. I just never find any of the "great" bread authors proofing yeast in milk/oil mixture - it's an old cut-corners method. Proofing yeast in milk or milk/oil mixture is one of those exceptions-to-the-rule that often doesn't work well (as you found out), and when it comes to making bread --- for every "rule" there is an exception to the rule. Bread baking has evolved over the years, and so have the methods for making it. It's not a one-size-fits-all.

Personally, I would never have even tried Ree's recipe, which was the case with many of her yeast bread recipes. I started following her on-line years ago and found she really didn't know much about food science (which is one of my keen interests), but she sure loved to cook and bake. What she lacked in knowledge she made up for in other ways and has a great following and appeal. I was disappointed by her name when she really didn't have any "pioneer" in her foods, such as milling her own flour and using old baking methods like naturally-leavened breads. She was a "pioneer" of lots of sugar, fat, and white flour - all the things that are causing disease and killing people these days. It's like Paula Deen - she didn't get health focused until she got Type II Diabetes.....

I see you are making a No-Knead Recipe, which is yet one more exception-to-the-rule breads, and there are so many fun versions of it, including the older recipes for batter bread like my mother made in the 50's/60's.

Here is a fun method I use for teaching everyone from children to adults because it only takes one class to teach it and you can make so many things from this one recipe. EASY YEAST BREADS IN A BAG - http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/FN_Bread_2006-01.pdf

Keep studying about bread making - it's a never ending process. I just watched a King Arthur Flour video today and they used an "against all the rules" method that made beautiful bread. So find methods and recipes you like. There are certainly LOTS to choose from. Check your library for books and videos on the subject. Bread is also one of the simplest and most humbling foods you'll make. Come back when you have questions because this is a great place where lots of members are more than willing to share information.

I used to make Angel Biscuits for my family, so I'm glad to see the recipe Linda shared. A friend of mine always used her Angel Biscuit recipe to make quick cinnamon rolls. I may even have the recipe somewhere..... I made angel biscuits with whole wheat flour and once they were cut I would place them on a cookie sheet and freeze them. When they were completely frozen I would place them in a plastic bag or plastic container and bake as-needed. My answer to "Poppin' Fresh, except heathier ;-).

-Grainlady

I just pulled out a loaf with less sugar. I forgot about crust color in relation. And I forgot to switch out 1/2 milk for water. Was a tiring day. It'll make good cheese sandwiches, anyway. I'll do another, tomorrow while the change is etched in my mind.

Thanks for the angel biscuits recipe. I will definitely give it a try. I hate breakfast and usually either let the kids have cereal or have made cinnamon rolls. The angel biscuits will be a hit, I'm sure!

My loaf recipe began as the sweet Amish bread. Right off the bat it was too sweet with 3/4 C sugar. Pretty loaf, tho! I reduced it to less than 1/2C sugar. As it was suggested I do by the one who referred me to that recipe, I began weaning the sugar out. Until today, I was at just shy of 1/4C. Less is better. She's hooked on home made grilled cheese sandwiches and won't notice the reduction.

Someone kindly donated many cans of white wheat kernels right after my first successful loaf. Another donated a hand grinder. Great! I have yet to get the wheat in the sandwich bread because, heck, I'm not consistent with the white flour, yet. I have used the wheat ground grain in pancakes, cornbread, flat breads, pita bread (well, usually 'flat'). I find it especially helpful to use buttermilk, sour cream or yogurt (even making my own buttermilk and yogurt) in her breads and foods. Coupled with eliminating any and all dyes, processed foods, soda and serving occasional sweet lemonade (with real lemons) it is under control. She's only 8, so it's tough. But what's interesting: this natural diet allows her to splurge occasionally without suffering. The doctors wouldn't touch her. Mom's cooking put it to rest. When I started she was consistently having white poo and everything I read about that pointed directly to major liver problems. I got busy! Today, if she stays on her diet - no problems. Amazing, isn't it? Anyway, I wanted to add that in if this post should be read by others who have similar problems.

I have always been a horrible baker. And this has been a real challenge. I remember well getting angry, once, and throwing an entire loaf of dough across the kitchen. Plop.

Now, I have plain bread dough in the frig most of the time ready to whip up the kids' favorite - cheese pizza - and the frozen sweets are pretty neat to share with people. Home made hot pockets is coming up this week.

Learning to make bread is an incredible skill.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

bon

Good for you, bon, and keep trying, it only gets easier and better. Except when it doesn't, LOL.

I know what you mean when you say "poor". I grew up poor enough that I remember coming home from school, asking what was for supper and having Grandma say "Whatever gets shot", while handing my brother a gun. Sometimes we were hungry.

After we moved to the farm, we had a big garden, chickens and pigs (and later cattle), and the food was less of an issue, although we produced pretty much everything we ate. Grandma taught me to bake my first loaf when I was seven years old. I still use her old recipe and we never had anything except the absolute cheapest all purpose flour. I've never purchased bread flour to bake bread, although results do vary depending on the flour I had available.

I just started milling my own wheat. So far I've been very disappointed in the bread I've made, and I've been baking bread for 53 years! So keep trying.

So you'd like bread you don't have to knead a lot?

I like the crust and texture of the no-knead breads, but my kids like light, soft and fluffy rolls, slightly sweet is even better. Grandma used the same dough for sweet rolls that she did for bread, an old fashioned farm house white loaf. It takes milk and eggs and butter, though, so it's not really cheap, although still cheaper than store bought stuff, even the cheap stuff.

As for yeast, if you do know someone that can get you something at Sam's Club, I buy 2 pounds of yeast at a time, for less than $5. I put one pound in a quart canning jar in the refrigerator and the other goes into the freezer where it stays good nearly forever. And I never proof the yeast, I'm lazy. I don't suppose you are in Michigan, I'd share yeast instead of freezing that second pound!

I've made homemade hot pockets for years, and they freeze really well, I used to make them by the dozen for the girls when they were in school. They liked them best with pizza fillings, but ate them with ham and cheese, broccoli and cheese, chicken and vegetables, last night's leftover chili, lots of things.

I hope your daughter continues to just feel better and better.

Annie

Tx annie I understand well. Thanks for letting me know the hot pockets freeze well. I'll go heavy on the batch, then. I stocked up on $1/lb ham and want to try ham & cheese pockets as well as some pizza pockets. When I started out with bread, I began with flour tortillas. I now buy flour tortillas in the store because I cannot physically keep up with consumption, but that rolling experience proved to be invaluable.

When you roll your hot pockets how think do you roll them out? Do you let the dough rise only once or twice? Just wondering how I'll work that out.

Kids want to come over just to have my pizza. Parents are like Why your pizza? What's your special recipe?
and it's nothing but flour, yeast, water and salt. Sometimes I forget
to put salt in it. Because they eat the soft crust right out of the
oven, it's like heaven to them and it digests so much easier than pizza
joint pizza. An hour later it would be awful as it doesn't keep well.

The hand mill I have doesn't grind very fine. I need to purchase a coffee grinder (broke my last one) for a finer grain. when I start adding it to the loaf breads I'll want a fine grain. I didn't know white wheat existed until someone gave it to me.

I don't mind kneading, but doing all this work for a loaf of bread no one wants to use for pb&j, means something needs to change. If eggs or milk or something more expensive will work, then that's fine. It's a priority. My family wants the light fluffy but durable bread dough and I hope to achieve it.

Back then, someone donated some frozen fleischmann so I could try it out. it's about time to replace it. I'd imagine if I beg the local grocer manager would order some of the bulk. My terrific friends have afforded me the cost of waste during the learning curve. Now, it all seems so easy and relatively cheap. And outsiders are like Wow. I'm in rural Oklahoma where it's not uncommon to see grandmas still cooking like yours. I know. I've counted on their wisdom! I do like the science, and many of these awesome women had their knowledge passed down through hands on training.

bon

This is what I always thought was the timeline for a loaf of homemade bread...

Day 1: Everyone loves a slice of fresh-baked bread. Time for soft sandwiches.

Day 2: By day two the effects of staling are in full force. The bread works best for toast and toasted or grilled sandwiches.

Day 3: Make French toast.

Day 4: Use any remaining for bread pudding, croutons, bread crumbs (both fresh and dried). I have a collection of recipes using bread crumbs (both soft and dried), including bread crumb brownies, cookies, pancakes/waffles. For all the work and ingredients that go into a loaf of homemade bread, there was never even a bread heel wasted.

***How to re-gelatinize the starches in day-old bread to make it soft again: Lightly spritz water on a piece of bread (using a fine mist plant mister or plastic spritz bottle where you can adjust the stream of water to a fine mist and use a light hand - make sure it's a clean bottle that has never contained any chemicals or cleaners). Place the misted piece of bread in the toaster for just a few seconds to gently warm the piece of bread. You can only do this once. If you want to re-gelatinize the starches in a portion of a loaf, wrap it in foil and bake it for 10-20 minutes at 300-350°F. This portion of a loaf will need to be used quickly.

***Three secret ingredients!!! I found three ingredients that helped to keep my 100% whole wheat bread softer longer (up to 7-days): Coconut oil (Wal-Mart carries LouAna brand in the vegetable oil and shortening area of the baking isle - it doesn't have any coconut flavor), agave nectar (a honey-like sweetener available at Wal-Mart with the sugar/sweeteners), and chia seeds (small dark seeds that are full of fiber and good nutrition and look like poppy seeds in the bread - also in the baking isle - a little goes a long way, especially if you make chia seed gel by adding them to water). These three ingredients help to hold the moisture in the crumb of the bread much longer.

***Making small loaves using 1-pound of dough (I weigh the dough on a kitchen scale) and bake in small 7-1/2" x 3-1/2" pans will help. This means a loaf will be used faster than a 1-1/2-pound (baked in an 8-1/2" x 4-1/2" pan) or 2-pound loaf (baked in a 9" x 5" quick bread pan). Science has shown if you intend to freeze a loaf of bread - use honey or agave nectar for the sweetener, instead of using sugar, because both sweeteners will help hold the moisture in the crumb.

***Milling wheat into flour tip: Since you have hand mill, mill the grain on a coarse setting first, then adjust the mill for a finer grind, and run the coarse flour through the mill once again. The finer the flour the finer the bread. The coarser the flour the coarser the bread.

***Using whole wheat: Try making a "light-wheat" recipe (a mix of both white flour and whole wheat). If your family isn't fond of whole wheat bread, make dinner rolls. I've found people will eat a dinner roll no matter what kind of wheat it's made from (LOL). If you decide to go 100% whole wheat bread, I have a recipe that I'll be happy to share with you. It requires a period of soaking (overnight), which is a slower method, but a better method for wholegrain bread.

***This is a favorite cookie recipe from the Kansas Wheat Commission using 100% whole wheat flour:

100% Whole Wheat Cookies

1 cup sugar
1/2 cup butter, softened
1 large egg
2 tablespoons milk
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
2 cups whole wheat flour
1 teaspoon baking powder
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon ground nutmeg
1 tablespoon grated orange peel (nice, but optional - I also add 1/4 t. of orange extract as another option and flavor)

Cinnamon-Sugar Mixture:
1/4 teaspoon cinnamon
2 tablespoons sugar

Preheat oven to 375 degrees F.

In large bowl, beat together sugar and butter until light and fluffy. Add egg, milk and vanilla extract; beat well.

Combine whole wheat flour, baking powder, baking soda, salt, nutmeg, and orange peel. Gradually add to creamed mixture, mixing until blended.

In a small bowl, combine cinnamon and sugar.

Shape dough into 1-inch balls. Place balls 2-inches apart on greased baking sheets. Flatten each dough ball with the bottom of a dampened glass dipped in the cinnamon-sugar mixture.

Bake 9-10 minutes or until golden. Remove from pan and cool on wire racks.

Makes 3 dozen
Source: Kansas Wheat Commission

-Grainlady

Bon, I used to live in OK. I sure miss being able to grow okra and the earthy taste of green beans that I grew there. And the short winters. I don't miss the wind & the heat in summer although I wouldn't mind a couple of days of it right about now...looking at the polar blast that is due to sweep in here later tonight (WI).

If it's a light & soft bread that you are wanting, you ought to try a recipe for Japanese Milk Bread (Hokkaido Bread). I only made it once but it made a very soft loaf and keeps better than most home made breads.

Here's one recipe--there are others that you'll want to chase down but they are all very similar:

http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016275-japanese-milk-bread

As I said, I only made it once...the reason that I didn't make it again was because it was just a little too much like Wonder Bread to suit me. Lots better flavor though.

Grain lady that is some excellent suggestions. I've bookmarked everything so I can come back and look at the options, try them all out and ask questions if I need. I made croutons and some very good stuffing, I might add. I've milled it down to breadcrumbs but def will look into some of the other options you listed that I wasn't aware. I just love how organic and natural cycles around into regeneration. I practice permaculture so, really, nothing goes to waste except plastics. I would like that whole wheat recipe if you're willing to share, as my kitchen is becoming popular and among the constituents (lol) are those who are healthier giving me excuse to try it out.

ci_lantro I took pause with your first sentence and the first thing I thought was Thank god she's not here any more. Let's just say that I'm poor and look forward to losing a home I cannot afford to replace and insurance won't cover. I'm just so glad you are not here! That's all I'm gonna say. :(

I've bookmarked your suggestions and will surely try them. This post has been extremely helpful and I look forward to replying with some results and maybe some photos, too.

bon

ci_lantro I took pause with your first sentence and the first thing I thought was Thank god she's not here any more.
Let's just say that I'm poor and look forward to losing a home I cannot
afford to replace and insurance won't cover. I'm just so glad you are
not here! That's all I'm gonna say. :(

Whoa! I wasn't trying to offend you. Obviously, I did. I apologize.

I tend to be a bit terse and you seem maybe a tad thin-skinned....so I'll just stay out of your way in the future because I don't want to add to your burdens nor do I want to be creating Drama on a What-Should-Be-Fun cooking forum.

Have a good life and good luck with your baking adventures.

Ci

Bon, I second the Japanese Milk Bread, there's a good recipe on the King Arthur Flour site.

When I make hot pockets I let the dough rise once, roll it out to about 1/2 inch thick or less, fill them, then put them directly in the oven and don't let them rise again before baking. Oven spring makes them puffy enough and a second rise sometimes breaks my seams and causes the filling to leak out.

I also agree that smaller loaves results in fresher bread, I'd rather bake every day than deal with stale bread. I've found that most doughs will keep in the refrigerator a couple of days, allowing me to bake when I want. So, I decide to have burgers for supper, I have dough in the fridge for buns, etc. Bread dough also freezes OK, although I've found that I have to bake it off within a month or so, or it doesn't rise well.

Good luck!

Annie

ci_lantro

No. You owe NO apology. I'm not offended at all by what you wrote. I'm happy. I'm happy you're there and not here. I meant that literally. I didn't want to start a debate lest someone reading be offended. The climates are extremely horrible here, right now. Financial, political and literal climate. With the price of oil really low people in the industry are running away as fast as they can. The price of oil being really low means our economy is deplorable. Meanwhile, the governor banned the right of cities to raise minimum wage. She banned the right of cities to ban fracking and running all over the place with corporate money in blatant shameful ways while crushing our education system.

Quakes, quakes, quakes. And I live in the oil pipeline hub. People are sensitive about this subject and that's why I wasn't sufficiently clear in the original post. I didn't want to bring it up. lol

In short, I wish I could leave. Can I come stay with you? LOL Just kidding. But I'd give anything to leave under decent circumstances. I won't have a home standing in a few years. Insurance won't cover damage from these quakes. Talk about depressing: I have 1/2" cracks in my sheet rock and all the other problems with finish on a mildly quake-damaged home, but the quakes are so numerous making repairs - even if we could afford them - is not cost prohibitive. 2 and 3 times a day. It gets on a roll. In generally, there is 1 good-sized "I feel it" quakes a week but every now and then it's non stop with sleepless nights up to 15 times within 24 hours.

Like many homes in this area, the origin portions of the house is from the 1930s. Def not quake proof. The old historic buildings downtown have fallen to the ground from the quakes and the city is cleaning them up ... at our expense.

The oil natives in the state are pitted against those who believe in man-made quakes and the science that backs it. I understand. Many here have had family in oil for generations and the reality ... well, it's just hard for them. I've never been in oil, but I'm not stupid about its importance to our economy even if the price of gas is cheap. The rest of us need homes and most of us never recovered beyond the 2000 tech bubble. We moved to rural areas, like this, to live within our means.

In short, I was being blunt and literal on my post. It's only a sore spot because it is really bad right now, but not because you wrote anything offensive. If I'm not careful, I start to feel hopeless. So, the first thought I had to your post was, literally, thank god she's not here.

Gosh, Bon, I really misunderstood your posting. I'm relieved that I didn't say anything to upset you.

I have been following the earthquake news but, for some reason, it just didn't enter my mind when I was trying to make sense out of things yesterday. I can't imagine what it is like to be living through that on a daily/ near daily basis. I guess that all we can do is hope and pray that things get better. Soon.

Not sure what spurred me last night to check on it, but I did. We (the country) just entered a recession (news isn't going to admit it or the market would like breath a sigh of relief and collapse.) It'll be felt, mostly, in certain geographies .. like MINE LOL Just can't win !

I'm too old for this. lol

I'm glad you read my reply. You've did no harm. I'm looking forward to making ham & cheese pockets tomorrow. The ham is cooling down right now.

bon

Hi Bon, where are you located? Thanks.

quakenado alley (central oklahoma)

omg the hot pockets are tasty. i don't know how well they come out after time in the feezer. we've been eating them all.