Go for it! You can mow suckers. Nothing like an aspen grove to walk in and you could be doing that in a few years. I'd plant a mix

of big tooth and quaking aspen.

After you plant them, how are you going to keep the brambles and other things from returning?

If there are trees in the mess right now, you may be better off clearing it out, then figuring out how to keep it clear, as opposed to starting all over.

I would not plant poplar trees (see my recent post). Not only do the suckers come up all over the place, the roots will come up in your lawn and eventually make it difficult to mow. There are better, well behaved trees.

I heartily agree with Sal's recommended species. Those two are what you see in the U.P. No poplar per se, unless an escape from somewhere. Yes I do realize poplars and "popples" and big tooth aspen are all closely related. Just saying, work with the two items native to that area. They're what you want.

But...what is the context of this? Suburban yard? Yard bordering natural area? I think the answers to these questions matter, because all members of genus Populus are by nature pioneer species, and they do get around. I like your idea, and it's not in the same box we usually inhabit on this board. But do be aware, the root suckers will go where they go, not where you want them to. So, a lawn mower will indeed manage those that will creep into the lawn. but do you have adjacent shrub beds, flower beds, vegetable gardens? They'll happily colonize those areas too. Just be forewarned.

Oh, and where are you? We can make other recommendations till we're blue in the face, but you know......location, location, location!

+oM

in MI ... talk to your county extension office.. as well as your county soil conservation dist office.. often.. they are in the same building ... you might even call one up in the county where you saw this .. UP officers might have a whole different view on such .. call it.. personal experience ... in the field ...

tom stole my thoughts ... you can not replicate northern rural MI ... in suburbia ...

i have planted two types of poplars .. i regretted both within ten years ... what a nightmare ... i took them out.. 40 minutes before i would have had to pay to have it done.. and thank god we can burn out here ....

but if you insist ... you dont clear land to plant these... you plant them ... and let them shade out the rest ... if a large property .. hire some dude with a tractor mounted bush hog or chain mower... to cut down the field ... do not treat this as a garden adventure ... you should be working at a whole new level ...

ken

OK all - Great thoughts and thank you.

To respond to some of the questions in your replies: My property is in Southern Michigan, between Ann Arbor and Detroit. My property is a suburban 1-acre lot (well manicured lawn and I do have a vegetable garden) that borders 4 acres of wild growth that is unoccupied. It is this unoccupied wild growth that I would clear and replace with poplar/aspen. To specify, I was not intending to completely clear the land: just cut down the standing dead trees, small thorny saplings, and nasty vines that are crowded in there to make room for the poplars. Other existing trees could remain if they are healthy looking and standing straight.

IMHO ... neither are for one acre ...

and if i read right ... you dnt really own the other 4 ...

i am down by tecumseh ... if you didnt figure that out ...i dont know why you mess with these nightmares .....

you have so many better options in MI ....

ever been to gee tree farm in stockbridge?? .... call ahead an make an appointment ... for a guided tour of the property .... it will knock your socks off ... about 20 mins north of I94 at the state prison exit north of jackson ... less than an hour car trip ... GO FOR IT ....

you might also enjoy a trip to hidden lakes gardens in tipton.. just west of tecumseh on 50 ....

ken

Thanks Ken - Never been to Gee Tree Farms but will check it out for sure.

Ken, sorry, must have been overclocking my brain this morning when I responded-I see we pretty much are saying the same stuff. I'm sure I'm a bit "more for" this idea than yourself-that's the difference between us. But yeah, what he said!

+om

@ wisconsitom - I have a question after reading your point about a "buffer zone". Do you know if an asphalt road would serve as a buffer for aspen/poplar roots? If so, there is an additional wooded area across the street from my house that could work, providing the roots wouldn't just tunnel under the road and pop up on my front lawn.

I second +om's Big Tooth Aspen recommendation. Here in Iowa Big Tooth Aspen does quite well and is an extremely rapidly growing plant that offers clean foliage and good fall color. I've noticed Big Tooth does not spread nearly as aggressively here in comparison to the Quaking Aspen in woodland settings. The bark is very smooth and while not as white as quaking aspen it is still distinct enough to give interest.

dd, I do not believe any significant crossing of a road would occur. That should-in virtually every case-serve as a barrier to clonal expansion of such a tree.

Select-indeed, a great looker-I like the unusual tannish color of the bigtooth bark very much. In fact, thanks to this thread I am reminded I need to get some of those going on my tree land. It is, again, an inhabitant of higher and drier sites than some of the spots you'll see trembling aspen growing in. That latter species is perfectly at home in everything from swamps to high hills. OK-I said that twice now-must be a big point to me, lol! But t'is true. I love seeing the bigtooth with their odd initial light green foliage color greening up on hillsides "up north", or really, anywhere in a state like the one where I happen to live. Aesthetically, simply an outstanding tree, albeit, like all aspen, not necessarily one for the home garden.

dd-do you control what happens in that site across the road? I mean, it's your call as to what level of potential disappointment you can live with. For my part, I'd hate to invest much time and care into something that I couldn't protect from "development". but again, your call. Good luck!

+om

Great question tom - the land across the street is my property. The "street" is actually a private drive that traverses my lot. So whatever I plant there remains there until or unless I change it.

By contrast, the woods that are ADJACENT to my lot only sit on my property for the first 5 to 10 feet. Beyond the first 5 feet, the land is undeveloped woods that may or may not be cleared and built upon some day. I know I risk investing in something that could be taken away. But I am prepared to take that gamble since the location of this land makes it unlikely to ever be developed (for reasons not worth explaining here)

I am attaching a picture for you to see. My house has the orange bubble on it. The white box that looks like a small cemetery in my backyard is my vegetable garden. Perhaps this helps...?

Armed with this new info, I say go for it. And I do mean both locations. I get the picture-that development is possible but def. not imminent. And the across-the-street sounds like a go. BTW, do you happen to know the identity of some or all of the existing trees in these two areas? So, generally aspens will colonize cleared areas. Not much for coming up within the shade of existing trees. But....it may be the case that some of the existing trees are worth retaining, my earlier comments about dead snags included within this. And additional question-any buckthorn, exotic invasive honeysuckles? Those b*stards will quickly rush in to fill any new space you create. Heck, they'll do so anyway, even in deep shade. I'd work to eliminate them before I put one new tree in the ground. the methodology would be cut-stump, or as I prefer to call it, cut/treat, the cutting (ow on the stems) of the offending species-this time of year is perfect-and the immediate daubing or brushing on of a proper concentration of triclopyr herbicide, AKA Garlon, Brush Be gone, etc. That's the way to deal with that stuff. If you don't have it, bravo, and consider yourself fortunate.

+oM

Tom - current species on site:

1) Buckthorn you ask? Tons of it. Everywhere.

2) Mulberry

3) Some sort of wild Cherry tree that grow to a tremendous size

4) Black walnut

5) A very tall growing linden of some sort (almost looks like a poplar from afar)

6) Wild grape vines

7) 2 or 3 other types of nasty vines that, along with the grapes, kill off their hosts and starve the woods of light

I have felled most of the black walnut because they are messy when dropping fruit and their poisonous roots kill off neighboring trees. The rest of the tree species are nothing but glorified weeds, with the exception of the cherries, which if they are growing straight and healthy are actually nice trees, and the lindens, which are attractive. I don't mind mulberries either, if they are well placed and well shaped. But so far, I have culled all of them because they have taken gnarly, unattractive form competing with the buckthorn and vines.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with you on all that. I do sometimes tolerate native vine species, but even riverbank grape-native in my neck of the woods and probably yours-can indeed do a number on trees, especially conifers, as it readily climbs up the tiered branches, eventually starving the host tree of light. So I'm with you. But aside from cutting stuff down, are you using any herbicides to actually kill the junk? You know, it will come roaring back if simply cut. The cut/treat method may not be well known to everyone, but it is a proven strategy that actually uses a tiny amount of chemical to achieve the end result. Some follow up is usually required, but it can be done. Knowing what I know now, I would def. not even consider planting into that mess until-at a minimum-the buckthorn is vanquished. That'll ruin every darn thing you're trying to achieve, including "poisoning" the soil via allelopathy, not all that different from what the bl. walnuts do, albeit, a different chemistry is involved. You can't get anywhere with that stuff present. And for my tastes and inclinations, mulberries are def. junk trees, even if birds, which I like a lot, do relish the fruits.
In fact, that is the very mechanism responsible for it-and the buckthorn's-spread. Lindens, are, of course, valid and valuable native forest trees.

+oM

Boy - learning something here. Was not aware that the buckthorns were so poisonous to other trees. I was not using any herbicides, but I am happy to. I've seen it done where a hole is drilled into the horizontal surface of the trunk and the herbicide is poured in. Is that your recommendation?

Not entirely sure whether UK poplars (populus nigra, or hybrid cinerea) are what is meant by 'poplar' in the US but I have a poplar plantation which does not sucker (thankfully) and (although I did not fully realise when I bought the land) has stunning advantages - namely a gorgeous cathedral-like feel of tall, tall trees...and enough light to have some real fun(the tiny little poplar canopies are dappled, dynamic and truly fantastic. I never imagined a (neglected) plantation had so much potential.

Stunning, Campanula. I love the trees. I have read that often poplars will not send their suckers up until the parent tree is stressed or felled, in which case the suckers appear en-mass all at once. It could be you have a trap waiting to be sprung when your current crop ages and dies, but perhaps not. I guess it depends on if your variety of poplars produce suckers at all...

Populus wilsonii, populus lasiocarpa and the cross between them are also spectacular poplars that doesn't sucker much. But they look quite different from aspens and most other poplars.

Campanula, I'm not even sure what the distinction is, but all "poplars" and a tree we call "popple" are members of the genus Populus. Native in my state a lone are Populus tremuloides, the quaking aspen or popple, Populus grandidentata, the bigtooth aspen-my favorite in terms of aesthetics, Populus balsamifera, the balsam poplar, which also happens to be the "hardwood" tree with the most northerly distribution on the globe, and which truly does perfume the air, Populus deltoides, eastern cottonwood.

dd, no I do not believe that to be the best way to go. Look up cut-stump applications of herbicides, as well as another technique that works well called basal bark. Plenty of info on these very webs-it'll give you an idea of what's involved. I'd never purposely send somebody down the road of thinking this was an easy task-there's a reason why you're hearing so much about invasive plant species-but again it can be done and the results can sure be worth it. We'll soon be into a time, the way things are going in places like southern and eastern Wisconsin-probably your area too-where nobody is even ever going to have seen what woods and little brushy areas used to look like before that crap took over. For one thing, you used to be able to see into woods! What a concept, huh? Sure, native shrubs occupied the same edge areas as the buckthorn now does, but they never so dominated and they didn't stay green so long into the fall/winter like this crap does. Anyway, do a spot of research and see what you find. And write back if you have more questions.

+om

Great feed +om - thank you!

Populus balsamifera, the balsam poplar, which also happens to be the
"hardwood" tree with the most northerly distribution on the globe

Really? Are you sure there aren't birches and willows further north?

Huggorm, I too thought B. papyrifera, and as you suggest, one or more willows to have that distinction. Somewhere though-and recently-balsam poplar was said to be that tree in something I was reading. I wonder if I wasn't looking at the USDA PLANTS Database, as I am there fairly frequently. I'll look again later.

In any case, balsam poplar is kind of an interesting one: Besides the resinous buds, it has rather dull, almost brownish-green leaves, lighter underneath, and what I'd say is one of the genus's duller barks. But it is adapted to sites too wet for most other trees, so is able to compete with reed canary grass(RCG) in degraded wetlands, etc. and in doing so, helps set the stage for "cedar"-Thuja, occidentalis-to move in. Of course, in all such scenarios, there is the presumption of there being seed trees of these types in the vicinity. My land has a lot of both of these species. There is also an area where I think cattle would have been grazed on these low-budget farms back in the day, and that's all RCG now. This is a thick, heavy, cool-season grass that very few plants can compete with. Anyway, it is notable to see the balsam poplar move into this area, slowly "capturing" the site for forest, not low-quality meadow like it is now.. And again, cedar has and continues to infiltrate. Like all aspen and poplar, the shade that is cast is light, and like was said up yonder, many species are quite adept at moving in, provided there is a way for them to get there!

+oM

You see them occasionally here in scandinavia as a male clone, grown for the fragrance, hardiness and simple propagation. My parents have two or three close to a pond they dug for farming crayfish.

There are several balsam poplars in my town too, just growing in parks and gardens, not in particularly wet soils. I tend to forget they're there until the spring. Then one's nose finds them.

Who actually owns the other 4 acres? You could theoretical get in trouble. Is it a wildlife conservation area or being grown for timber or anything?

Check out the mulberries. If they are native red mulberries (Morus rubra), keep some...those are becoming rare. If it is the invasive white mulberry, chop away (if you have permission).

Interesting how everyone's definition of "weed trees" differs. To me, black walnut is a native that produces something edible to humans AND has good lumber, while poplar is a weed...tastes differ.

Black walnut wood is expensive...you can probably sell it for money. A large old tree can go for a couple thousand.

Oh, the toxic effect of black walnut is true but exaggerated. As far as trees are concerned, it is mostly a threat to pines, apple trees, and silver maples. Lots of trees are immune.

Ed - thank you. And to be more clear, I don't consider black walnut trees to be "weed trees" either. We had one in our neighborhood growing up and it was nothing short of majestic. And yes, gave us edible fruit! I just don't want them around in this area for the sake of how messy the fruit can be.

As for the 4 acres, they are privately owned, not natural habitat. They had been cleared a few decades ago right down to the ground and so what grows there now is mostly buckthorn. I don't intend to mess with all 4 acres, either. Just the first 40-50 feet from my property's edge.

I live surrounded by both trembling and balsam aspen and I can't say that I'm terribly keen on either. Though, such has more to do with the particular specimens not being all that terribly desirable. Whereas, I often come across very attractive stands, (especially of trembling aspen) so very fine and desirable that I've considered propagating these.

I live on a good-sized farm, much of which has reverted to woods over the last 150 years, and we have a fair number of P. grandidentata and P. tremuloides, bigtooth and quaking aspens. The P. tremuloides only grow where they aren't a problem, so I don't know how badly they sucker, but several of the grandidentatas are a pain. Even from the middle of a field that is mowed a couple of times a year, they have sent out suckers more than 60 feet under a windbreak row of dense Canadian hemlocks (Tsuga canadensis) and into a garden area. Likewise in another spot along the edge of a wooded area where one was terminally damaged by an ice storm, there are suckers coming up all over the place. I view this as a right plant, right place situation, and the only place I want them is in totally wild areas. I wouldn't ever plant them in a suburban area, as much as I enjoy them.

I've seen it done where a hole is drilled into the horizontal surface of
the trunk and the herbicide is poured in. Is that your recommendation?

==>>> no ... cut flush to ground... using the applicator at the link ... apply generic round up .. undiluted.. applied to the green edge.. the cambian ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=cambium+layer&biw=889&bih=745&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIwvj6i_PbyAIVhDwmCh3LcggP&dpr=0.9

the inside of a tree is basically dead ... you have to apply it to the vascular system.. aka the cambian ...

the applicator allows MINIMAL and precise application ... no need to waste it on the dead middle part ...

return unused to the original container ... but dont store it near the hot dogs.. lol ...

this works on any plant ... cut a vine at the ground.. apply ... cut again up about 6 or 8 feet ... and leave it hanging in the tree ... AND MAKE SURE ITS NOT POISON IVY ...

the cherry is Prunus serotina ...

ken

https://www.google.com/search?q=plochmans+mustard&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XQTcUYCCC_OFyQGCg4DAAg&biw=1154&bih=805&sei=XwTcUbmZHZK4yAHD0oDYDw

Was in an area rich in oak (white, red, maybe others), white and red pine, and many, many large, mature Populus grandidentata. My earlier enthusiasm remains, only even more heightened. These are great trees for forest settings. The area I was in has much high land-worn down mountains really-and lower areas as well. The bigtooth, as I reported earlier, only ever appear in the uplands. I find the bark coloration to be unique and highly pleasing. YMMV, but I doubt it!

I will repeat just this once more-you really do need to vanquish that buckthorn if you want to do anything. It will destroy your project.

+oM

It is painstaking, but I am both cutting down the buckthorn AND digging out their stumps and root balls. It will take me well into spring. But I'm taking no chances.

dd, I'd not do that digging thing. not only way too much work, but when the soil is disturbed, new seeds (of buckthorn, etc) get their start. In affect, it is perpetuating the problem. Little-known fact-numerous plant species' seeds need a shot of sunlight to begin germinating. all your digging is providing just that.

The chemical treatment that we've outlined for you is tried and true. Why complicate matters, not to mention the huge new pile of work, digging out all that stuff.

Sure, I pull out very young buckthorns by the roots. They actually come out of moist soil easily. But we're not talking about that. If you want to effectively kill the stuff, do the cut/treat (cut-stump treatment) or the basal bark. Those are what you want.

+om

NHbabs has much more experience than I do so maybe my opinion will change in a few years, but right now I still love the quaking aspen and big tooth aspen which grow along the back of my yard. Mowing seems to control the suckers well enough even when I skip a couple weeks of mowing (I like the rough look back there).... The staghorn sumac are much more invasive.

I prefer the quaking aspen over the big tooth for a 'neater' look but they're both fantastic trash trees. The bigtooths have a looser look, the quaking are the denser trees - still mostly green in this picture. I'll be cutting a few again this year to open up the view and will surely have plenty of suckers come up to replace them.

Will seed fluff be a problem? I get some floating through the air each spring and although it's not as bad as cottonwood it can be annoying. I blame the big tooth more than the quaking but I've never investigated enough to be sure.

Katob, only you can rate the level of annoyance you're willing to put up with due to seed/papus combo floating around. But your basic thrust-that this is a doable thing that you enjoy-is right on, IMO. If you like it, can deal with it, who's to say otherwise?

+oM

Not only do they sucker and turn your lawn into a rough bumpy mess (no more bare feet in soft grass) but they die a horrible messy death after a dozen years. Hate,hate, hate them