Not really. This concerns vandalism of an empty house after a contract has been signed, i.e. a substantial change in the property, plus the potential for even more vandalism.

I just talked to my real estate agent. He said he is going to go through and reread the contract, but he thinks it would be difficult to get the escrow back. He also filed a police report yesterday, and the police said they will make a few runs past the house during the day and night to deter any more break ins. The listing agent apparently doesn't do anything on weekends, so we have to wait until monday to hear from her. He said that sometimes the banks will work with us on resolving this type of thing in order to sell it, and thankfully I did take a LOT of photos of the house on the first and second walk through... so I have photos that show the pipes nicely in place (aka, not stolen). So he had me email them to him, and he's going to send it to the listing agent and see what can be done.

I just talked to my real estate agent. He said he is going to go through and reread the contract, but he thinks it would be difficult to get the escrow back. - My rather sarcastic advice then is - Close on the house, get an attorney and then sue your real estate agent for being an idiot.

All contracts require a meeting of the minds. This is what I am selling must equal this is what you are buying. A substantial change in the property voids the meeting of the minds. In every contract it nullifies the contract. You can disclaim condition as basically what you see is what you get, but you can't disclaim condition as what I see is what you get, or what you saw before I made changes is what you get.

Edit: Not legal advice - so see an attorney

Le Anne,

I just looked at my BoA foreclosure contract, which has identical language as your contract quoted by you above.

There is a section. "Risk of Loss. If any material portion of the property is damaged or destroyed prior to Closing, ...." that spells out what happens in detail. It states that you can cancel the sale unless the seller repairs what is damaged.

Agree a RE attorney in the state involved is required. For the sake of discussion, if the place burned down, is the OP still SOL in the opinion of the posters who believe the OP must move forward without renegotiation?

PS OP == good luck. I can't imagine living somewhere something like that would happen to an empty house. Yikes.

You don't need an attorney. Just read your contract. Pretty sure that there's a risk of loss clause in there.

Also: Your real estate agent needs to consult with either someone more knowledgeable and/or his/her office's attorney. That's why there are two real agents involved in this sale, i.e. so they can do their job.

The law is at times more complicated than it should be but it still remains grounded in common sense. Although, I hate to use the term, the idea that the OP would have to abide by the original contract doesn't pass the smell test.

To demonstrate, what if I sell my house "as is, where is, at the time of closing." Once through the due diligence and inspection periods, I then go into the house and strip it to the studs, removing every piece of cabinetry, woodwork, plumbing and electrical. I have not committed a crime as I still owned the property at the time I stripped the house. Could I still enforce the contract? The answer is obviously, NO!

There are protections for this kind of thing written into contract law that a contract would struggle mightily to disclaim.

I can't imagine living somewhere something like that would happen to an empty house. - I live in a fairly nice, low crime area and a few years ago people were stripping the copper out of outdoor AC units in broad daylight. Copper theft doesn't necessarily happen in high crime areas - while they prefer vacant homes - there are thousands of cases of copper being stolen from nice houses while the owners are gone for a weekend, or even for a day at work. It has a lot more to do with the ease and anonymity of selling the copper than it does with the area.

Le Anne, everything about your transaction is screaming "GET OUT NOW!" Back out of the contract ASAP. This is a money pit, and you will regret going thru with the deal.

OK, I also bought a foreclosed house from BoA, with a settlement company located in PA. It is a standard contract that was used.

There is a section in the contract after the sections that OP quoted that is entitled Risk of Loss, which spells out exactly what happens when there's damage between contract signing and closing.

Moreover, PA state contract law has stipulations that any loss occurring before closing is the responsibility of the seller.

READ THE CONTRACT. I bet you it's in there.

If not, get the buyer's agent draft a letter, referring to PA contract law (I bet you there's also a section in that contract that refers to state laws), asking for either repair (most likely they won't do that) or a credit for repair. Get an estimate.

Nosoccermom is right -- and even if it is not in the contract, unless there is something in the contract specifically providing to the contrary -- which would probably have to be a non-standard form and something your agent should not allow you to sign without some clear discussion about it, whether the property is owner occupied or vacant and bank owned, the owner has the risk and the duty to maintain. They will either carry insurance on the property of be self-insured. You have the absolute right to have the property repaired to the condition it was, to be compensated (price adjustment) in a reasonably equivalent amount or to terminate the contract and get your deposit back. (no longer practicing and this is practical advise, not legal advise, but I did time in both law and insurance).

These things happen. Storms hit and trees fall on houses under contract. Do you really think the buyer would have to buy the wet, dirty mess and fix it up or lose their deposit? And copper is stolen anywhere someone thinks they have a window of opportunity. My sons' pediatrician's office had AC units stolen twice before they put locked cages around them -- and that's on a busy street near an intersection in a very good, low-crime neighborhood -- but with some trees that probably screened them at night. There are certain kinds of things that happen even more with vacant properties. Certain kinds of plumbing problems, leaky seals, appliance problems, etc. occur more when a home has been vacant. My current home and the previous one were both vacant about 6 months before we took possession. What we didn't know to anticipate in the first one, we learned to expect and deal with in this one.

The clause in the contract you are looking at talks about what you may find after closing. It is saying once you take ownership, you have to deal with anything you and the inspection did not see and address prior to closing. It is intended to deal with situations where the previous homeowner or occupant of the home might have reason to know that something needed repair or maintenance where the company or bank would not. The burden is on you and your inspection to find problems or needed repairs.

Not to scare you, but there are some things that are more likely to occure with homes that has been vacant a while (not unlike having the car battery die or the egnine get sluggish if you don't drive it for months). Vandalism is one. Things like leaking seals on the DW or plumbing (we had to replace the flushing mechanism on every toilet in both houses and the DW seal on at least one), but these are minor expenses and things that can be done DIY. Appliances, including the AC and water heater, may develop problems if they have not been used for some time, especially if they are older -- in which case you mey be planning on replacing them anyway.

We had some of those things on both homes - annoyances, but nothing major. We had more significant issues with this home - water leaks that had been covered up with fresh paint and water stains larer broke through after we took possession. We had some problems with drains and found mildew behind some of that fresh paint. That 's the kind of situation the relo company or bank wants to avoid dealing with -- fair enough unless they had the mold covered up, etc.

My biggest concern here is the RE agent who says it would be tough to get your money back -- unless she is also advising that the bank is going to repair or offer the funds to repair in cash back at closing or a reduced purchase price. If tat is the case, I'd be looking for a more experienced agent to be brought in to help get this through resolution.

everything about your transaction is screaming "GET OUT NOW!" Back out of the contract ASAP. This is a money pit, and you will regret going thru with the deal. -

Foreclosures must be considered differently than traditional home purchases. All houses have risk and reward, while foreclosures have the highest risk, they are also typically require lower investments so have greater rewards. In the scheme of things, estate sales probably have the highest risk vs reward. The disclosures are often worthless, yet the prices are still typically high.

If foreclosures are viewed through the same lens as traditional home purchases, they should all scream get out now.

For myself, having the piping stolen would be a godsend, now there is one less piece of risk in the house. In other words, I am now getting free new plumbing, which has to be up to current code, instead of plumbing of questionable quality.

nosoccermom, thanks, found the clause. I'm writing it below. Honestly, the wording on the last sentence is confusing. I wrote it exactly as they did (it's a scan so I can't copy and paste). I talked to a few of the neighbors. The next door neighbor is also in the midst of moving to that house (new structure), but grew up a few houses down. He said he's shocked as that almost never happens in the area (I did look up crime rates in that area and they are some of the lowest in this part of the state). He and a few neighbors said they will keep an eye on it. I'm going by every day now. He also pointed out that it's very odd that this house was broken into to get copper, when he has a ton of exposed pipes and fixtures in plain view very close to 'our' house, and is only there a night here or there to fix things up and wasn't all of last week. None of that was touched. Our agent should hopefully hear back from the listing agent tomorrow.

22. Risk of Loss. Regardless of local custom or practice, Purchaser assumes all risk of loss related to damage to the Property. In the event of fire, destruction or other casualty loss to the property after Seller's acceptance of the Agreement and prior to Closing and funding. Seller may, at its sole discretion, repair or restore the Property, or Seller may terminate the Agreement. If Seller elects to repair or restore the Property, then Seller may, at its sole discretion, limit the amount to be expended. If Seller elects to repair or restore the Property, Purchaser's sole and exclusive remedy shall be either to acquire the Property in its then current condition at the Purchase Price with no reduction thereof by reason of such loss, or terminate the Agreement and receive a refund of any Earnest Money.

What do you not understand? The contract says the seller (bank) has the option to repair and limit what they will spend on repairs (i.e., you can't require the repairs to be to a certain standard) and you don't' have a right to reduction in price. However, that last sentence says you may buy the house at the contract price -- in whatever repaired, partially repaired or unrepaired state it may be, or you can terminate the contract and get your full earnest money back. It's pretty straight forward to me.

Now, with that said, there is absolutely nothing that prevents the bank and the buyer from reaching a different agreement and modifying the contract. The parties can always agree to change their terms. Either way, the bank is in the driver's seat and you can accept their decision, have your (not very good from what you've said) agent try to negotiate a better position from the bank, or you can walk, get your money back and and take it elsewhere -- so you have final say on what you chose.

"If Seller elects to repair or restore the Property,

Purchaser's sole
and exclusive remedy shall be either to acquire the Property in its then
current condition at the Purchase Price with no reduction thereof by
reason of such loss,[meaning, you buy the property in its "then current condition", i.e. in its repaired state but you can't have the purchase price reduced]

or terminate the Agreement and receive a refund of
any Earnest Money." [or you cancel the purchase and get your money back]

What I would do is get three estimates ASAP and then ask my agent to send a contract addendum to ask for credit for the repairs or have the bank do the repairs. And ask for a reply within 2 or 3 days (you may have to ask for an extension of closing to get the estimates, but I'd try to get it done without extending closing)

If the bank is interested in moving ahead and close on time, they'll probably give you the credit.

If they don't respond, refuse to give credit (or counter with too low a credit) or do the repairs (seriously doubt that they'd want to deal with contractors, etc.), then you can decide whether you want to go ahead with the purchase.

Other questions:

How come you still have access to the property? Is it unsecured, accessed via realtor, or you peek through the windows?

Have you received the HUD estimate or more definitive info about closing?

Buying a foreclosed property means that the seller is not as invested as a private owner -- -which has disadvantages but also advantages.

I've seen it various times with my agent, but as it's on the way to my mother's house, I have stopped by, and as it's very close to the road I don't even have to get out of the car to see through the side and front windows. My agent couldn't forward the photos, so he called me earlier and I just emailed them directly to the listing agent. He said we'll hear from her later with a potential solution. I know the date of closing, but the closing attorney is supposed to tell us the time later this week.

I hope things work out for you. It's a pain now but potentially worth all the hassle in the end.

I'd certainly go inside to make sure that there are not more things that have gone missing.

Definitely go inside and through the whole house again before deciding what you will do or accept.

Check the wiring. Often, if they've taken copper pipes, they've also stripped copper wiring.

I'm stopping by every day now. I also talked to one of the neighbors on the other side of the house today. The house was ok when I passed by. I didn't see any wiring missing when I went in a few days ago, but are there any hidden signs? or is it always something obvious? My mother suggested parking a car in front of the house until we close next week to potentially deter more mischief.

Is the power turned on? I'd want to see the power on and working so you can test the wiring.

If you park a car there, it could become a target and I don't think you will fool anyone. The house is on the market and has already been identified as vacant by those who would take advantage. You said you don't have to get out of the car to see inside the front and side windows. So anyone else can see the house is vacant too, right? Sign still in the yard and windows that still show the house is empty -- car parked outside and not moving isn't going to fool anyone.

But I still don't get how you walked down to the basement (your words in the initial post) without your agent being there. If the place is being left unlocked, it is going to be a target for vandalism. If you knew or could figure out you could get in, so could anyone else.

Usually when they steal the electrical wires, they just open up a wall electrical plug face plate and start pulling. The wire tears it's way through the drywall to wherever it leads. So not only does the owner need new wire, but also new drywall.

I have also seen owners pour concrete down the toilet and sink drains...

Bag of flour in the garbage disposal -- add water and it's locked up as good as concrete.

Add bathtub adn toilet to that list.... All depends on whether the vandal wanted to get cash or revenge.

lascatx No, I didn't go down without my real estate agent. I've been inside I think 4 times now but all with him. It was the last time we went in with him that we saw the pipes missing. And There are bushes blocking one part, so they can't pull up to where you can see the inside from as my car is now in the way. My mother has the spare key to the car and is going to move it or take it for a while every day on her way home from work. We are going there every day at random times. I can't go in until monday with my agent. The doors haven't been opened since I put something there several days ago, and the spiders did me the favor of webbing up windows, so I can tell if those are disturbed.

On monday I'll disconnect and check the traps in the piping. It was winterized, so if they did something like that, there should be signs of it in the traps. No dry wall damage. I guess the only way to know for sure is to unscrew and check each receptacle :/ We also found out from neighbors that the place has not been lived in for a little less than 3 years. One of the tenants said they think the previous owner died. I've still got a few more neighbors I'm hoping to talk that I've been told have lived there for decades.

And thank you all for the advice. Well... on the bright side, our funds have finally completely cleared so we were able to pay off our debt. Now to get into this... or A new house while we still have enough to make it livable.

3 years? You are lucky not to have more damage, but do plan for things like appliances and fixtures needing service or replacement. You can count on the DW seal and the toilets needing the internal parts replaed -- probably less than $100 if you DIY, but probably $100 per if you hire it out.

Your firts post and subsequent sounded like the realtor wasn't with you when you discvoered the pipe damage but that you talked to him later.

BTW, if the house has been vacant that long, I doubt the bank will want to lose the sale. If your requests on the repairs are reasonable, you should be able to get pretty close with the bank -- I would think.

Have you asked the bank to repair (or pay for a repair of) the missing pipes?

The only appliance in the house is the fridge... and it's kind of dirty (cleanable, but not sure if it works). But the only appliances I don't currently have are a fridge and stove, so I'll hit up craigslist for the stove and a fridge if it doesn't work. I met some more neighbors earlier today (one has a little girl my daughter's age, with whom she made quick friends). Everyone I talk to is really surprised that the stuff was stolen because apparently at least a few of the immediate neighbors work at home or are retired and "always outside", and this is the 2nd one that said they rarely lock their doors. More so because this one said the police chief is always hanging out next door (few doors down from us) with his car in the driveway. Well, I'm getting a great impression about the neighborhood... but I hope the neighbors actually keep an eye out (though they seem like they genuinely will).

nosoccermom, our agent sent the listing agent an email with photos (well, they weren't showing so I had to send a 2nd email directly) and a request to repair or reduce, *and* change the locks or allow us to. He also talked to the listing agent twice, who said she sent everything to the bank. It is annoying that the bank hasn't responded yet, but I also don't want to extend the closing as it would leave the house empty longer, and cost us more to stay here while waiting.

But if the pipes are damaged, you have an uninhabitable house.

Your mortgage lender would likely not allow closing to go forward if the house is not habitable, and if you go forward and they aren't informed, you run the risk of potential bank fraud -- maybe not enough to rise to the criminal level, but might be enough to allow the lender to call your note due in full, pay their legal fees, etc. If they don't fix everything, you may have no choice.

As fas as no one seeing anything, it may have happende at night, might have been a repair van or truck -- maybe even there to do legit work, but helped themselves while there. No way to know for sure, but definitely change the locks once you take posession just to be safe.

I'd find out why it has been vacant that long. If it is in a good neighborhood, that doesn't usually happen.

As per OP, it's a cash sale (therefore no lender), and it's a foreclosure (i.e. these things may take ages in some areas, especially if the owner died and the heirs don't want to inherit a house that is under water.).

The only question might be if there's a PA or county law that requires a place to be habitable before it's sold as a residence. At least that was in my general contract.

It sounds like BoA doesn't respond, which is a "no", so if you still want the place, you don't have much choice except to accept it. But I'd make sure to do a thorough walk-through with a knowledgeable person right before the closing. (Fixed some typos).

"Because it's 10pm on a weekend and I don't see why it hurts to ask for
people's opinions. Why do I have to justify every question I ask on this
forum? You're not lawyers. I'm not an idiot. I'm not looking for legal
advice, just people's interpretations."

Seeing the responses you've received and your replies, I was correct in suggesting that you talk tou your attorney!!!!!

Missed or forgot that it was a cash sale.

Typically, BofA will repair the damages or offer you the chance to terminate contract and get earnest money back. They won't keep your EM if the home has been vandalized, or damaged since you executed the contract. I've bought 9 BofA foreclosures.

@salti: Not really.I directed her to a clause in her contract that dealt with risk of loss, which spelled out exactly what the options are (and confirmed by Linda): It's BoA will repair or OP can get her EM back.

It's not BoA, the contract says citimortgage. They told him the wrong one initially. Well... I talked to "the" neighbor the other neighbors keep telling me to talk to a couple of hours ago. He said he wasn't well acquainted with the previous owner, but that she had rented the house out, and stopped renting it after the last tenant as she had to move to idaho because of her job.

I called my agent up trying to figure out what to do about closing as I haven't heard from the closing attorney, and he said they told him this morning they didn't have the "search facts" back yet. He said they didn't say anything about closing, but he suspects we won't be able to close monday. Of course my husband is extremely irritated because that's more time the house will be vacant. So now we're not sure when closing will be :( how long do title searches usually take?

Unless there is a problem or question on the title, it's not so much how long the search takes as how long it takes someone to get to that part of the stack on their desk and how many hands it has to move through to get back to who you are dealing with.

Just talked to the attorney doing the title work. She said that the deed is still in the process of being recorded. She was told it will take "at least another week" but said it shouldn't be much longer than that as it's all in order and just needs to be recorded.

Well, since there's more time now, I'd try to find out if there's a human being that your agent could actually contact to ask about the addendum for repairs.

Does citimortgage deal directly with the contract or do they have an intermediary?

Also, where you live, do you have access to the tax/property records? In many counties, they are publicly accessible online.

Are there tax or property records that might not show up on the title search/ insurance at closing? No online access, but I can get them for a small fee at the county recorders office. My agent called a few minutes ago. He's also getting annoyed that the bank hasn't responded, so he just called the listing agent and is waiting for her to call back. The addendum says no repairs even on damage done after entering the contract, but he said he's still asking for it, and demanding they change the locks and said they'll have to pay for any further damage if they don't secure the property after knowing it's been broken into.

How can you even consider moving into the property with no plumbing? Do you have quotes on the pipe replacement? A timeline for the work to be done? Are you in too much hurry to move into this mess of a property?

The deed has not been recorded?

The deed gets recorded after your closing, not before.

Quit deed that the bank took over the property?

Probably... but I thought regulations had been passed that kept banks from marketing a property until they actually owned it. I suppose not. Maybe someone knowledgeable can comment on this.

Yes, for the bank, not us. I don't know about those laws, but if there are then they ignored them. Though my real estate agent said he's seen it happen a few times. The listing agent got back to us. The bank won't change the locks, but will cover any further damage if it's broken into again.

Why not the previous damage? Did the addendum really negate the Risk of Loss section?

How did the seller's agent get this info? Shouldn't the bank formally respond to your addendum regarding repairs?

To your previous question: Any lien or outstanding taxes should show up in the title search. Also, the contract should spell out that the bank is responsible for any taxes that accrue until the date of closing. This should show up in your HUD sheet.

Also, the transfer and recordation taxes that are due with your purchase. Usually, the bank won't pay any, but they've been known to make mistakes.

@nc: I'm assuming that they didn't market the property until they owned it, but who knows how long it takes for the deed to show up in the records....

Where did this addendum come in?

OP: "He's also getting annoyed that the bank hasn't responded, so he just
called the listing agent and is waiting for her to call back. The
addendum says no repairs even on damage done after entering the
contract, but he said he's still asking for it,"

Curious. Any updates?