There are published industry standards for nearly every detail of a project--tile, cabinets, paint, insulation, framing. These provide professionals a uniform method to evaluate quality in a commercial building project. The professional standards are part of a subscription service, but you can come close by referencing the installation instructions on manufacturer's websites. Cabinet websites and others sometimes have the specifications available.

You will need specify which standard you will use in each element of the project in advance. In a commercial building project the standards are attached to the specifications which become part of the contract. In your case, the specifications could be included in the scope.

You can specify various milestones along the way, get as detailed as you feel you have time to follow up. A daily review is best so you catch things along the way. A running punchlist helps both of you keep track.

What is quality to a contractor, may be different than what you, have in mind. That is why you, make sure who you hire that they, are going to do quality work. I, do not think a contractor, would go for it.

Why would a contrator object if the expectations are definitively detailed in advance of the remodeling project? I think that clearly outlining these issues benefits both homeowner and contractor. It might also streamline the process of finding the contractor - those who say "no way" to a quality clause you certainly don't want as you could infer a lack of quality in or unwillingnes to guarentee the work. What do the references tell you? If a contractor delivers quality work that meets all of the product specifications and has verifiable references of happy customers, then I think that GC would not object.

Of course, knowing exactly what you want with NO change orders would also be a significant factor if you have a quality clause. I think it would be unreasonable to expect in-process and last minute changes with such a clause as the GC and workers would require time to learn about whatever product you want if it is in any way out of the ordinary. It seems that preparation would happen before the project begins rather than during.

The reason you use manufacturer's installation and/or published industry standards is to take the guess work out of it. There will still be some subjectivity involved, but it helps a lot to have printed guidelines. If a contractor does not want to follow industry standards or installation instructions, then that would be a concern.

Quality issues are a problem we get lots of questions about on this forum. Agreeing in advance on how quality will be measured can certainly help. The system also helps to keep the client from imposing arbitrary standards after the fact. This will be a lot more work on your part, but will bring assurance that the job will be done right.

It would have to be very carefully worded, I would think.

Take a paint job. You want to make the wall "smooth"... well, how smooth is smooth? The problem with these types of words in a contract are that they are almost never defined the same by any two people.

I find we have a similar problem with contracts where payments are due by percentage complete. The contractor will think they are have done far more than the owner because it's difficult to agree on what constitues what percentage of "done".

How would you define the quality of a kitchen cabinet? You would spec perhapes plywood boxes and wood frames but trying to detail an opinion would be awkward.

**those who say "no way" to a quality clause you certainly don't want as you could infer a lack of quality in or unwillingnes to guarentee the work**

No, they might say "no way" because "quality" is subjective, so unless the contract defines objective standards for it, signing such a contract could open the contractor up to a lawsuit even if he did provide what any reasonable person would consider quality work.

I mean, who here would sign a contract in which they guaranteed "to do a good job" or else they wouldn't get paid? "Sign here on the dotted line, where it says 'I will work hundreds of hours for you and I will do a good job, but if it's not a good job you don't have to pay me'."

"Quality" is no more objective than "a good job." The contract has to spell out what it means, and it has to spell it out in an objectively verifiable way (e.g., "I will provide plywood cabinet boxes, solid wood doors, steel hinges, etc."). Even if you include some set of standards, you still have to look closely at the standards and make sure every one of them is objectively verifiable. Otherwise it's just not fair--you could easily end up with the homeowner saying, "You didn't meet this standard where it says, 'cabinets will be made in a workmanlike fashion'!" And the contractor would say, "Yes I did!" ...and then you end up in court.

This and other home fora are filled with the complaints and sad stories of homeowners who feel they did not get the level of service they were paying for. Contractor discussion boards have the converse complaint.

Quality may be abstract and subjective, but I think the point of the quailty clause would be to make the concept of quality both concrete and objective. (All cabinets will be made from xy material, installed according to layout, and are level and plumb). Even payment for percentage completed can be made clear: 15 jobs to be completed would mean when five of them are done, there is a payment.

All of this would have to be discussion and agreement BEFORE work begins. The point is not to without payment but for the homeowner to ensure that she/he gets the remodel wanted.

From "standard" contracts that I have been able to find online, the homeowner has little to no protection beyond withholding payment (mechanics lien and court).

Why should a homeowner not have some form of protection and seek assurance they're paying for a job well done? If the contractor is upright and does "quality" work, why should that not be clearly defined?

I assume from everyone's comments and that I can't find any info online, a separate quality clause is not a normal part of contracts.

I've never worked with a GC before, so this is my first time researching contracts. This GC has passed all our checks and references so far, and he submitted a very pared down contract to review. It seems to me that it's up to us (the homeowners) to insert any clauses that would put liability on him vs us for all sorts of potential problems.

I don't want to get anal about specifying details of how to do his job, since that would be ridiculous given our scope of work. Rather, I'm just wondering how and where in a contract does the homeowner specify that if there is a real problem (bad seams on the countertop, for example, or who was it that had the terrible cabinet fabrication with the inset doors that were cut too small...), that the contractor will fix whatever is bad.

The only thing I can figure out so far is that the guarantee of good work is the liability insurance of the subs and GC, and the concern on the GC's part to maintain happy clients. I guess this means that accountability is NOT stated, but is assumed.

Does anyone know if that's correct?

Aa2Ga,

There may have been confusion. I think the example you gave saying "all cabinets will be made from xy material" is not a statement about quality. It's a definitive spec sheet. Many people don't think plywood is better then say a zero voc fibreboard so specifying a "quality" material wouldn't necessarily guarantee either.

Another good example is your idea about how simple percentage paid would be to work out. You say out of 15 jobs then after 5 you get a payment. Which 5? What if number 5 isn't done but 6 is? What is "done?" is electrical done before or after wiring fixtures? Are light switch covers part of painting or electrical? What if one thing, such as electrical is such a large percentage of the scope of work or even most of it that a percentage payment needs to be negotiated mid electrical?

I'm not saying that these things are not workable. I'm just saying that there is a grey area here where trades and tasks overlap.

I think it's telling that in your last sentance you put quotes around the word "quality" work. It gives the feeling of that ol' quote about not knowing how to define pornography but knowing what it is when you see it.

However, if what you are saying is that you think things like the material used to make the cabinets should be specced out I agree 100%. In fact, a contract on a kitchen that didn't spell out that detail would be almost surreal to me. I love to have more, more, more details in contracts.

You should definitely push for a level of detail you are comfortable with!

Funny, contractors strongly resist quality commitments, because they're too subjective, too specific, prove the homeowner will be a PITA.

Yet, a commenter on this very board told one homeowner, "Well, you can't complain to your GC, because if you wanted the floor in the old part of your kitchen and in your bumpout addition to be on the same level, you should have said that in your contract."

!

Morgne - my pretend examples were very hypothetical to make the point that the details for the scope of work seem to me to be a deciding factor in what constitutes quality. If I say "I want white, Shaker style kitchen cabinets," I leave quite a bit open to interpretation by someone whose idea of what I want may not be mine. And the GC will not know because I was not specific; I did not state preferences about the materials and quality thereof. I'm presuming here the lack of crystal balls and mind reading capabilities.

Yet it seems to me that by not including a quality clause -making the abstract concept of quality into concrete details that can be objectively observed/measured/determined, detailing the scope of work and what I expect - I would indeed be expecting the GC to read my mind. If I were to be unclear and nonspecific with my contractor about what quality of work I think I'm paying for, I create an adversial relationship, put myself in a position to not get what I want, and have very little recourse because I did not specify what I wanted in the contract before the job was started.

In terms of the payment, I understand that certain jobs may overlap or be simultaneous; however, I cannot beleive that any contractor worth his/her salts is unaware of what is happening when, and subsequently is able to make a determination about when payments should be made, even if my example is too simplistic.

There was indeed a recent post in which someone's doors on inset cabinets were cut too small, or the woman who has been trying for weeks to get her contractor to return to complete the punch list and is still disputing a broken sink - these are two recent examples of homeowners who have a problem with the quality of work provided, yet they seem to have no recourse and are at the mercy of the contractor. With the second example, the woman has to wait for the contractor to return and "fix" the problems or hire someone else to do it. If she hires someone else, there is still the possibility of a lien for the remaining monies owed.

I read a post yesterday from about a year ago in which a woman says she was told by her contractor that she "didn't need" something she wanted - in this case a stronger fan in a bathroom with a steam shower. The contractor put in a fan that was significantly below what was required - 100 cfm instead of up to 240 according to those who responded.

These are three of the myriad examples in which homeowner and the contractor conflict, yet the homeowner seems to have very little recourse beyond whatever the contractor is willing to do in his own time, or pay to have the work corrected/completed by someone else, or go to court, or just be unhappy and settle.

In every industry, there are workers who are less skilled, less contientious, less detailed-oriented, whose work ethic may not be the best example of the industry. Yet every time one of these "less than" people do a job, they represent the industry, may, in fact, be the only example of the industry others see. It is unlikely that any GC or tradesperson on this board is a "less than" but I'd bet all of the GCs and plumbers, and electricians, and tile layers, etc. on GW all know someone in their line of work who is "less than." And are aware of the string of unsatisfied former customers...

Every time there is a problem, homeowners are told, as is stated above, "that should be in your contract." So why not include specificity that cites exactly what level/type of quality is expected.

"I guess this means that accountability is NOT stated, but is assumed."

I think the assumption - creating a assofume - would cause more problems than it solves.

When we were interviewing GC's for our whole house reno, we made it very clear in our conversations, that quality was of paramount importance to us - both in terms of workmanship/craftmanship and products used. We made it perfectly clear that we were prepared to do without bells and whistles in our reno to get that. We acknowledged that it was going to be more expensive and that was fine with us. The guys that said 'yah, yah, yah" and smirked at my husband while glancing sideways at me didn't get the job.
This is something that can't be put into a contract. You can include timeliness, maybe specific products that are to be used (we specified BM paint), but beyond that you can't contract.
The firm that we hired took our "quality" conversation further when they started to also talk about doing a green renovation, and renovating to take my arthritis into account (I have sever arthritis in my hands-fortunately the only place) and we knew we had found our guys.
You can choose your quality products which we did AND I came by the house every day to check on things - we held up the job for two weeks because of issues with the floor and they were always obliging about fixing poor paint jobs etc.

So your GC - when you start talking about this kind of thing what kind of reaction are you getting from them. Are they continuing the conversation or are they cutting it short. Make it clear your expectations and the part that you are going to be playing in the process.

From what I have read on these forums, there is some reason for trepidation regarding contractors. However, in my experience of building and installing cabinets, there has never been a need for a quality contract, as #1 I make sure I know and understand what the client wants and expects and #2, if they aren't happy at first, I make sure I make it right so they are more than happy in the end. If a contractor does what he is supposed to and he knows what he is supposed to, there should not be an issue. Judging from what I have read, the problem has been finding the contractor that meets that criteria.
Hope things work out for the best! Don't be afraid to speak up if things aren't going the way you want. Most contractors are not psychic and if you don't say anything, they will think everything is okay. Be tactful, but don't back down.

To be able to specify a quality clause in a contract properly, the homeowner will have to do massive research. You'll have to investigate stone quarrying and transportation techniques, fabrication and installation guidelines, and incorporate all of those. You'll have to fully investigate (and understand!) cabinet construction techniques and specify those 100%. That would include all hardware (fasteners, glues, as well as hinges and drawer glides), internal bracing, thickness and type(s) of material, grade of wood used, exact profile desired, and all steps of the finishing process as well as the materials used in the finishing process. You'd need to fully understand all plumbing codes that apply in your jurisdiction, as well as the advantage/disadvantage of choosing different materials for that plumbing and the various options available for layouts that are code compliant using those different materials. YOu'd need to understand the electrical codes, and calculations needed to determine if your panel can handle the potential load a new kitchen requires. You'd need to understand wire installation techniques, and the advantage/disadvantage of choosing to gut vs piecemeal patch and go. YOu'd need to understand wiring and lighting diagrams, and be able to specify that 100% in your contract, and also specify the manner and costs of any changes if you change your mind about the location of any of those elements. You need to understand about HVAC, and how your new space can be optimally heated and cooled as well as vented properly without backdrafting some other home element and killing your family.

You need to understand and be able to specify almost every element of home construction that exists. It'd be exhausting work on your part, and by the time you learned enough to specify your contract properly, several years would have passed and many things that you learned would no longer be applicable or would be changed and you'd have to learn the new data. In other words, you'd need to be a contractor. Because, that's what a contractor has to do to be able to work in today's complex construction world.

So, how do you manage to ensure that you get a quality job on your project without becoming a contractor yourself? Well, the truth of it is that you really cannot 100% guarantee that your job will turn out perfect and painless, even with the best person at the helm. That's renovation reality. But, as any psychologist will tell you, the best prediction for future behavior is past behavior. You need to personally interview past clients and personally view past projects that the finalists you are considering have done. You need to consider longevity in the business, licenses acquired, and insurance obtained. And, truthfully, you need to do some of the education outlined above to be able to intelligently judge a quality job.

There are all kinds of projects out there from complete DIY to complete hands off design/build, and all kinds of budgets. But, to be sure your project comes off well, you need to do the research to know what you want, and what a realistic budget is for what you want. ANd, you need to keep a cushion in reserve for those unknowns that always happen. If doing any home renovation project brings you so close to the bone that you wouldn't have any cash reserves, then that project needs to be postponed until those reserves increase and you talk with your home insurance agent. Because even if you do the best due diligence in the world, sometimes things still happen. Your star contractor has a heart attack in the middle of the project. A freak storm comes and blows the tarp off of the roof before the new roof is finished. The extra special granite that there is only just enough of to do your kichen cracks and the shipment from India isn't due for another 8 weeks. It's how you and your contractor roll with those punches and solve those problems together that will determine if you're happy with the job once it's done.

So, if you have a good rapport with your current interviewee, then it's time to view some of his past and present work and judge for yourself if he meets your definition of quality.

I think a homeowner should at least read some DIY books on tile work, plumbing, electrical, cabinet-making, etc. Learn the lingo, options, and alternatives. It might be 100 pages of reading, mostly pictures.

So you know what to look for when you inspect other kitchens the guy has done, what to specify for your kitchen, what he is talking about.

Sometimes people are unhappy about details - the overlay cabinet doors are spaced too far apart, the gaps for inset doors are too large, the tile pattern is not centered on the wall, the grout line is too wide, the handles are too high, that part is plywood, the sink reveal is too negative, etc. The work might be capably done, but it's just not the exact ''look'' that the customer was imagining - but failed to specify for the contractor.

I suppose in a perfect world, the contractor would discuss every last one of those details with the homeowner, but things aren't perfect. Plus, I imagine, if a contractor knows that the owner is paying attention to the details, it can't hurt the quality of work.

BTW, remember the old adage about you can have 2 out of 3 of the following: Good, Fast, or Cheap. You can't have all three. If you have someone promising all three, then you know he's either a complete business rookie, or he's lying. You've picked good already. So if you want that quality job, it won't be cheap if it's fast, or it'll be slow if you want it cheap. This is why a lot of folks interested in high quality work end up DIYing. Because good quality work isn't inexpensive, especially if you want to limit the time frame of the project.

Oh God spare me. Sorry, I have a cold, and this thread is all I need to start projectile vomiting.

So, there is no way whatsoever a homeowner can write a contract without becoming a building sciences professor--even though three-quarters of the contractors out there don't know jack about what they're doing.

But the instant there's a serious problem--doors don't fit, floors aren't level, the granite snaps in two, the seam is wide as the Grand Canyon--here comes the inevitable response: Well, you should've put it in your contract.

And for some people the only possible solution is to find the contractor that will charge you the maximum amount of money.

There's a phrase on Wall Street: "Talking your book." I suggest some people look it up.

Live wire oak prompted this thought: Is your GC getting (OH c*** I forgot the word - absolute brain freeze) work permits from the city/district and so will the work be inspected. Again, it does add to the cost but depending on the extent of the work well worth it. As I mentioned we did a big job and I wouldn't have used someone who didn't get approval or who wasn't afraid to have their work inspected.

And now that we finally have our railings in (after 6-months of being back in the house - see even our great GC who I would recommend in a heartbeat can't control the sub-trades and control the quality of workmanship) we can get final inspection. YEAAA! The story on our railings -when first delivered they had been designed incorrectly so they had to go back (we did a custom design wrought-iron railings for stairs), when they came again they were shiny black instead of matte black, so back they went. Our GC never made me feel like I should have to settle for something that I wasn't happy with and always supported me. (Although who knows what they said about me over coffee) They finally arrived and our GC came at the same time to make sure they were as ordered and stayed for the installation. Crap happens even with the past GC.

The best way to get quality work is to find a good contractor, check his references, see other jobs he's done, etc. Yes, I know there are people who did this and still had problems but it's probably the best you can do. Obviously, specify all your materials, etc. in the contract but subjective quality standards probably won't help much and may actually cause some good contractors to pass on your job if they're not desperate for work.

You know the old saying: I normally charge $50 an hour, but if you watch it's $75 and hour and $100 an hour if you help.

I am interested in this topic because from what I've read, it seems that finding a really good, reliable contractor is the most difficult part of renovation/remodeling. In fact, my reading leads me to believe that finding a dependable GC is largely a crap shoot, a matter of luck.

The problem with the interviewing and reference process is that it's a show. If a GC, or any worker for that matter, is interested in a particular job, he/she is not going to go in and say, well, I didn't know what I was doing when I installed a fireclay, apron front, farm sink, tightened the flange too much cracking it and then didn't go back to fix the problem. That's not going to happen as evidenced by the many here who have such problems time and time again. They did interview. They have permits. They did check references.

In the interview/discussion/negotiations, the GC is going to say what went well. The references are going to be those jobs for which there were no problems. Just like anyone else who needs a reference, you're never going to ask the boss/supervisor/co-worker with whom there were conflicts.

It seems that homeowners must complete their due diligence, take their chances, hope for the best (a concpt even more amorphous than quality), pay the big bucks, well, the bigger bucks, and still be at the mercy of a contract that leaves little to no recourse when something goes wrong.

I still find it difficult to believe that with all of the great people here who do exemplary work on houses that the best advice is due diligence and hope.

Maybe a quality and hope clause in the contract?

Marcolo said: **Funny, contractors strongly resist quality commitments, because they're too subjective, too specific, prove the homeowner will be a PITA."

It's not that they're too specific. It's the opposite--unless they include a list of specs or an objective standard, they're too vague. "Will do quality work" is not specific precisely because "quality" is subjective. Barring blatant incompetence, like the drawer boxes being too big to fit into the cutouts they're supposed to go in, most "quality" arguments would degenerate into "homeowner thinks X is not good quality, contractor thinks it is." You have to DEFINE quality objectively in order for such a clause to make any sense at all.

Marcolo went on to say: **"Yet, a commenter on this very board told one homeowner, "Well, you can't complain to your GC, because if you wanted the floor in the old part of your kitchen and in your bumpout addition to be on the same level, you should have said that in your contract."**

Wanting the two floors to be on the same level isn't a quality clause, it's a spec. Yes, you should have specs written into your contract. That protects both the homeowner and the contractor because it shows what they agreed to; the contractor can't get away with having the floors not be on the same level, and the homeowner can't change his mind partway through and claim that he never said they should be on the same level.

So many of the posts on this forum are spec problems: "the drawer boxes are plywood, I thought they'd be solid wood in a custom cabinet"... "the interiors of my white cabinets are unpainted, I thought they would be painted"..."my custom hood is only X inches wide, I thought it would be wider"... that sort of thing. You can't solve any of those problems with a quality clause, unless by "quality clause" you mean "clause that lays out all the specs." If "quality clause" = "specs," then yes, by all means, put a quality clause into your contract.

Wanting the two floors to be on the same level isn't a quality clause, it's a spec.

Excuse me. Wanting the floor to be on the same level from one end of the same room to the other is a "spec?" I'm sorry, but LOL.

Sorry, but your post is off base. Maybe you didn't follow what I meant. Contractors resist quality clauses period, end of story, end of discussion--everything else is just an excuse. A long list of specs scares them off. A shorter, less specific list is too vague. It doesn't matter what a homeowner asks for; a contractor will say anything, say anything, say anything to refuse them. Max dollars for min work--that's what it all boils down to. I think all the huffing and puffing to pretend otherwise just wastes everyone's time. No one is fooled.

Marcolo,

I think it's interesting that you think every contractor in the world will "say anything, say anything, say anything" to refuse a homeowner anything they ask for.

Surely you know a contractor who did SOMETHING for a homeowner at some point even if was accidental?

I also think it's sad and I wish you better luck next time you need to work with one of us.

"Talking your book" essentially means that you spread information that would help the position you have in the market.

Thanks Marcolo - I did indeed look it up, and I believe you are correct. Contractors and others in the industry say "talk to your contractor" but is seems what's meant by that is "talk to your contractor but not too much." "Make sure your contractor understands what you want" but that really seems to mean "if you are too specific about what you want, your contractor can/will use that as a reason to charge you more money." "Make sure it's in the contract," but "you can't put that in the contract."

I understand that the GC is the "expert" in the renovation/remodel equation - which is the entire point of hiring a GC in the first place. But the very real fact is there are GC's and other tradespeople who perform shoddy work leaving the homeowner with little to no recourse, and it doesn't seem to matter if one splits hairs calling it "specs" or "quality." If the recourse is the contract, then that has to be where the solution is as well, thus the quality clause.

So this thread is back where it started: how does a homeowner protect his/herself from shoddy work?

The research and book reading is done. The materials list is done. The contractor is interviewed, references checked, double checked, past work viewed, former clients met and talked to, insurance and license checked and double checked.

So now what - when a homeowner has done everything he/she is supposed to do, what to do to ensure the work is completed as its supposed to be?

Here's the ANSWER!!!

AIA A101 - 105 2007 documents provide standard industry agreements between Owners and Contractors. There are different forms for your individual project scope and fee structure (we used A103 - cost plus a fixed fee). This agreement incorporates by reference AIA A201 - 2007 General Conditions that have everything you would expect re indemnification, quality, warranty, etc. Finally, any unique considerations for your project can be executed as an exhibit/amendment to your A101-105 contractor agreement. All of these AIA document are updated every 10 yrs and incorporate comments from Consumer protection, Contractor, and Architect trade organizations and are pretty much the gold standard.

**So this thread is back where it started: how does a homeowner protect his/herself from shoddy work?**

And it's back where it should have ended, too: the homeowner protects herself by DEFINING quality objectively (a.k.a., writing out detailed specs) and incorporating that definition (i.e., those specs) into the contract.

NOT by adding a clause that says "the contractor promises to do quality work" or words to that effect.

If a contractor, is going to do a bad job putting a quality clause is not going to make him, do quality work. You need to screen your contractor, well check him out good. Go by your gut feeling. My husband told me, there are only six bad contractors, in the world. But what he, did'nt tell me, that they move around alot.