Shoddy engineered hardwood flooring installation

8 years ago

Hello, my contractor has installed engineered hardwood flooring throughout my whole house. In many places the floors sink and dip when you walk on them. Some as far as at least a half an inch. They are floating over concrete and he has kept saying this is normal but I know it is not. After reiterating this he has finally conceded that his workers did not put them on right and they need to be torn up and installed again but glued down. From everything I have read gluing doesn't seem necessary, they just didn't level the subfloor correctly. Is this right? I have not paid him at all so I'm wondering if I should fire him and find someone to fix it or let him fix it. He also suggested that we just leave the floors as is and I don't pay him at all. In that case I would definitely have someone else fix it but he back tracked afterwards saying he would fix it with the glue. Any guidance on this is appreciated. It's causing me a lot of stress. Help!

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MDLN

8 years ago

I like Unique Woods suggestion.

@ jfcwood, thank you for your comment that "Floating floors are very finicky in regard to the subfloor being level." While I wish my GC had told me that when I was deciding on site-finished vs pre-finished, I will cut him a little slack on that.

Update - site-finished are in and I find no bounce. Hopefully, it will stay that way. Unfortunately, they stained them the wrong color.

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Comments (7)

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MDLN
8 years ago
While my floors are not over concrete, something similar happened to me. A prefinished hardwood floating floor was installed - without adequate leveling. Despite several attempts at removal of sections and different methods of leveling it could not be fixed. All of the prefinished HW flooring has been removed. Nailed down site finished flooring has been installed. Have not had a chance to walk on it yet, just stained yesterday.

You are correct it is not normal, mine did not dip as much as yours, however builder agreed to remove and replace.

Maybe get a second opinion before making a decision. Good luck.

BTW - they make it look so easy on TV, just click it in place. :-)
User
8 years ago
Floating floors are very finicky in regard to the subfloor being level.

If your existing floor can be removed and reused, and the original contractor is willing to do that, I'd go with that option. Are there other issues that would lead you to choose a different contractor? If his original price included leveling, or if he was responsible to provide a slab within generally acceptable architectural standards, this should be done at no additional cost to you. If his original price excluded leveling, it wouldn't be out of line for him to charge you a fair price to fix the inconsistencies in the subfloor. It's not fair for anyone to do something they don't charge you for. Even if he glues the floor down, the subfloor issues should be addressed first.

If you decide to have someone do a new floor, you need to ensure they know what to do and that they charge you sufficiently to do the leveling needed to fill in low spots and/or grind high spots, so it doesn't bounce (again).
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You need to do a little more archeological digging still. You need to know the whole construction of the floor before you can decide how best to install something new. I'd take up that plywood piece in the kitchen and see what's under it. It's higher than the surrounding floor, so needs to go. You should also be able to see from there what subfloor is under the original kitchen hardwood. It's too bad the space under your entryway is finished, but I'd still do some exploring from below to see what's under there, and to figure out the fix to stop it from squeaking. Is it drywall below or a drop ceiling? I know it probably seems like a pain to tear out drywall, but if you cut out a clean patch, like 2' x the width of the joists, it'll be relatively simple to repair. Just make sure to cut it down the center of the joists so that there's room to screw the patch piece to it later. Cut the hole under the area that squeaks the most, if you can. Have someone walk on and watch the floor from below to see what's moving. It might be as simple as pounding in a couple shims from below, or face-nailing a loose board from above. You want to find out what's underneath the hardwood. It might be laid directly on the floor joists, or there might be 10" wide boards that the hardwood is nailed to. Another thought is to take out a board in the hallway, since that's not original and you want to replace it. See what the subfloor is there. I am a bit puzzled at why, when you've stripped the kitchen down to the original hardwood, it's still higher than the hallway floor. Is your current surface perhaps not the original kitchen hardwood? Peeling back the plywood area will help determine that. BTW, I haven't heard of that stop squeaking product you linked to, so can't offer any personal opinion. And don't pour self-leveling compound over top of hardwood. It needs to go over plywood.
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Hello to everybody still following along with this! We finally did get the inspection report back - it was a very through, detailed report. To make a long story short, the inspector found issues with everything: installation of the floors/railings/balusters, staining, the flooring product itself, etc. He addressed every concern that we had, and even found additional issues. I shared the inspection report with the flooring company who installed the floors and stairs, and they have agreed to remove and replace everything. Once we gave them the inspection report, the flooring company has been really great about wanting to make everything right, and making sure that we get a really nice floor/staircase/railing system. They assured us that not a single person who worked on our project initially will be working on it this time. In fact, all of the people who originally worked on our project were either let go, or left the company on their own. Since there were also so many issues with the flooring product and the gray color, we actually decided to go with a completely different brand, color, and species of wood. Our next step is to decide on a schedule for the work - so I'm sure it'll be a while until everything is completed. Thank you to everybody who commented on this thread with your ideas, suggestions, and comments!!!
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All wood has the ability to creak. It is the PREPARATION (levelling subfloor = extra cost = extra line added to the bill of sale) that allows the wood to sit FLAT. That's item number one. No, if you did not PAY for it, you do not 'expect' it to be given to you for free. Sigh...sucks but that's the way this cookie crumbles. To be clear, a concrete subfloor levelling job CAN COST $3-$5/sf to be done PROPERLY and would add 2 days or more to a job. Did that happen in your situation? Now onto the installation instructions: the INSTALLER (dude on his knees) did an INAPPROPRAITE installation technique. Any/all warranty is now void due to 'installation error' as it is called in the business. So...Here's where you are. You have a wood floor that was improperly installed. The question becomes, WHO did YOU PAY to have it installed? Did the FLOORING COMPANY include the price of installation with your purchase (ie. you used THEIR DUDE)? Or did you HIRE YOUR OWN installer (you purchase wood from company A and then had it installed by company B)? And JUST FOR sheeps and giggles, what is the HUMIDITY in your house right now? And do you have the ability to CONTROL the humidity with a push of a button (on your HVAC system)?
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Oh wow! You have some BIG questions that require BIG answers...for each one. First, concrete slabs are expensive to level...but you want to do it, so you will want to know what you are about to pay for. 1. Levelling concrete subfloor/slab (average...can be higher or lower depending on a gazillion things): $2-$5/sf. The age of the slab, how badly it is in need of repair, giant cracks, shifting soil conditions, etc, etc, etc. All of these things will add up to higher costs. So be prepared. I've known old slabs (from the 70's and EARLIER) to cost $4/sf without blinking. The really old slabs (20's and earlier) can take much more money to deal with. 2. The sagging subfloor underneath the room with the two king beds (wow...that's a TON of weight in one space...and I mean a TON). Whew...where to start where to start. OK. The 1/2" is big enough for you to LOOK UNDERNEATH the plywood (that means looking from underneath = open up ceiling below) to ENSURE you have wood joists that are SOUND. The deflection rating can be looked at BEFORE you damage your ceilings, etc etc etc. Is it possible to add new plywood to this room? Yes...but then you have to do it for all the subfloors on that level. Cost of plywood has quadrupled in the last 12 months. Which means the $1/sf stuff is now $4/sf. Ouch. Can that room be levelled using patch? Yes. It will cost around $2/sf for that room alone. 3. Moisture barrier...is something you put UNDERNEATH your floor to prevent the moisture BELOW THE SLAB from coming UP INTO THE FLOOR. It has nothing to do with bathing suit splashes dropping DOWN onto the wood. Nothing. So I'm not sure what you are asking in this one. OK...that's the 'most information' using the fewest amount of words. As you can see, everything depends on what BOTH subfloors look like when you REMOVE all the current flooring and 'start over'. I'm not fond of contractors who do NOT recommend using self-levelling over a wonky concrete slab. It tells me they KNOW it takes work to get it to work...but they have had PROBLEMS in the PAST with their guys doing the work PROPERLY. Which tells me they are all about doing everything as fast and as painlessly as possible (for them). They probably are NOT happy when forced to do things 'slowly and carefully'. Besides, they have probably BID other jobs with the $4/sf subfloor costs and been LEFT WITHOUT WORK. So they stopped bidding properly...which gets them work, but the results are less than stellar.
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glennsfc
8 years ago
The floor, regardless of what installation method is chosen or the substrate in question, must be FLAT to within the flooring manufacturers requirements. (Period).
handmethathammer
8 years ago
I don't know if it compares, but I had engineered floors installed and several places bubbled up. You could step on the floor and it would sink under your foot, I don't know if this compares to what you experienced. There was a hump on the floor if I set a glass on the floor for comparison.

I called the installer and he came out and remedied it pretty quickly. I haven't had the problem again and it has been another year.
PRO
MDLN
8 years ago
@handmeth, how did the installer fix it? Thanks.
PRO
Unique Wood Floors
8 years ago
Did you ever think of using a NWFA certified wood floor inspector to find out what is exactly wrong with the installation? Whether reinstallation is feasible? You may find one in your region on NWFA website.

Shoddy engineered hardwood flooring installation

MDLN

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