For starters, I hate the reach in/walk in pantry. There were originally bi-fold doors on it, but the doors are rarely closed so the pantry mess can be seen by all. I have talked to my contractor - the plan is to remove the duct work, the pantry and closet. He said he can move the duct work either along the back of the pantry wall (the wall that is adjacent to the formal dining area) or he can move it to the top left corner of the current pantry so that cabinetry can wrap around the walls. The corner space would be a "dummy" cabinet or glass front for display. The small wall b/w the pantry and fridge would be removed.

I'm thinking the best place for the fridge would be where the current closet is - the plan would be to have it facing the end of the current peninsula with a panel, bookcase, etc on the side making it recessed.

What crowds the current space is that there is only one entrance into the working kitchen. With only one sink and most of my prep space by the sink, kids wanting to use the sink/DW get in my way. I'd like to remove the peninsula and make it an island.

Mudroom door leads to our back deck. We do not enter/exit the house from the mudroom. It is mainly a storage area for shoes, coats, backpacks, as well as a few other things like dogfood, a small beverage fridge, etc. We do, however, use that back door several times a day to let our dog out. Currently, to get to the deck to grill, we have to come in that back door, walk through the doorway into the family room, then all the way around the peninsula to get into the working kitchen. There is an opening over the sink that looks directly out to the deck. It used to be a window (the mudroom and family room were added onto the original house). We have a really nice view of the water from that opening and out through the french doors to the deck. There are no windows at all in the kitchen except over by the kitchen table. There is a window in the mudroom to the left of the french doors. So though there is some natural light, the working area of my kitchen is rather dark during the day - I would really like some windows on that wall as it faces south (perhaps flanking the range).

In talking with my contractor, we realized that for a variety of reasons, it would be very expensive to remove the entire sink wall to extend the kitchen into the mudroom. That is a load bearing wall. Another problem is that there is duct work along the ceiling running from the family room through to the mudroom that cannot be removed without huge expense. The contractor suggested leaving a portion of the wall where the peninsula is (there is electrical wiring there anyway). Perhaps a column (something aesthetically pleasing). Basically there would be another wide opening through where the kitchen sink currently is that would sort of mirror the opening that currently goes from the eat-in kitchen side to the family room. The peninsula would become an island.

I was thinking the clean up sink/DW would move to the outer (south) wall into the current mudroom space but further down the wall from the range. Then there would be a prep sink (in the island?) that would create a work triangle b/w the fridge and range.

The powder room shown in the drawing is going to be moved to an area near the front door and that space will become a command center with shelving. Part of the wall where the stairs up will be removed such that the kitchen table would then be turned creating a better aisle through to the family room.

Additional information based on the READ ME thread for planning kitchens. Sorry for the weird format - I cut and pasted my answers from a word document.

Goals are more prep/counter space by the sink and stove, more/better storage, better defined zones, more than one entry into kitchen and ability to have more than one person in the
kitchen at the same time.

We are two adults
and four children. Two teenagers, and two
preteens. Two primary cooks – me and my
husband. My kids typically prepare their
own breakfast and on weekends, their own lunch.
Often, there is more than one person cooking, helping or prepping in the
kitchen. At dinner time, kitchen needs
to be accessible to whoever is setting the table. We cook daily.

Currently the working kitchen is used for cooking and cleaning up. The table is off to the side and used for
eating, homework and other tasks. During
social gatherings, people often hang out in the kitchen on the outside of the current
peninsula. If changed to an island, some
seating there would be nice. We eat all meals at the kitchen table together. The dining room is used for holidays or when we entertain. We have mostly informal gatherings but like having a formal dining area.

Can windows or doorways change size? Yes

Can they be moved or eliminated? Yes

Can windows be raised/lowered? Yes

Can any walls come down? Yes

Does the sink have to be centered under a window? Yes

Does it have to be under a window at all? Yes

Do you bake a lot and do you want a Baking Center? I bake but don’t need a dedicated baking center but hope to keep all
my baking supplies in the same area and my KA mixer on the counter as it is used
frequently.

Do you want a coffee/tea/beverage center? Yes, and definitely want to fit in an additional small beverage fridge. We currently have one in the mudroom that gets heavy use but will replace with a new one to fit somewhere....

Do you want a snack center? Not necessarily but a nice to have if something fits.

Range or Cooktop or Rangetop? Range-planning to keep 30” GE
Café (would an induction hob make sense? I don't want the expense of new range, but having an additional burner would be nice).

Single or Double or no Wall Oven? Possibly single wall oven/speed
oven but not necessary.

Warming Drawer? No

MW? Preferably
on a shelf under a cabinet (not built in)

DW? Standard or drawers? If drawers, 1 or 2? Keeping current KA standard DW

Refrigerator Keeping standard depth French door fridge

Ventilation Hood? Yes

Pantry: Walk-in or cabinets? Cabinets in kitchen.

My apologies for so much information! I really appreciate anyone willing to give me some input on how to rearrange the existing layout for a more functional kitchen for our family.

I'm not an expert, just have some time to spend on GW. Is this workable? I put the duct in the upper corner, and pushed everything back against the wall, but deep enough to recess fridge, and the advantage is deep counters on that side. Also moved fridge down 12", which still leaves 5' for traffic.

How do you want the island oriented?

Mama, thanks for the drawing. However I am hoping to remove that wall that the sink/DW are currently on. Since it is a load bearing wall though, there would need to be some sort of column, on the end where the peninsula comes out from the wall (where I have 40" drawn in). I was thinking of basically rotating that L where the sink/DW are to the right into the current mudroom space. The sink/DW would be on that wall where the range is to the right of where the lazy susan currently is. Or the sink/dw could be in the island (thinking where the peninsula used to be) but I definitely would like a second sink.

I will see if I can draw up what I have in my head but then I have no idea how to place everything to make it function best. I will also see if I can take some pictures of the current space to show the duct work at the ceiling that can't be moved - so basically there would be a "header" that runs the entire length of the ceiling from the table side all the way to the wall where the lazy susan is. I will post some pictures later tonight to help show what I'm talking about.

The way you have the left side though is basically what I envision where the fridge is, and the duct work in the corner. It's the area opposite that that I'm hoping to move. The island would then be parallel to the range in line with the fridge. IOW, kind of shifting the peninsula to the left of where it currently is, but then there would be an opening on the right side for access to the kitchen also.

I wouldn't give up my mudroom for anything (almost ;). In the meantime, here's another version--without moving the bearing wall, with an island with prep sink, but very tight aisles. This is m/l the
size of my island and work aisles. (I have no sink in the island.) It's
doable, but most folks would want wider aisles. Would you need the clean-up sink centered under the window? If you pushed it down, DW has more space for open door, and you'll have second prep space in front of the window.

If you go with the option to remove the wall between kitchen and mudroom, the prep sink could be in the top left corner (move range to the right), with a new window for prep area, and clean-up on the longer island.

I'm trying to learn to use all the options on the paint program, so I hope you don't mind if I post a couple more versions. This one has the wall removed, with shallow storage on the top wall, for some of the things currently stored in the mudroom. The prep sink is closer to the fridge, range m/l centered on island.

And another, with the prep sink on the right side of the kitchen, with range in a more protected spot, but prep not as close to fridge.

One more, with the prep on the island, clean-up in top right corner, as you suggested.

Mama Goose, thank you for your efforts!

I'm considering giving up my mud room b/c it really is just junk storage for stuff that could be better stored elsewhere. I had great expectations for it when it was added on, but back then my kids were very young (4, 2 and infant). My kids are now 15, 14, 12 and 10. Our house is sort of "coastal" design in that our garage is underneath the house with a rec room adjacent, then a full flight up to the main living level. My kids always come in through the garage rather than up the back stairs to the deck and then back door. They kick their shoes off in the garage, as well as cleats, boots, etc and leave them there. Excess shoes are stored in the mudroom, but it's shoes they don't wear often like sandals for church, etc. that could really be kept in their bedroom closets. Only my youngest really keeps any coats in her mudroom cubby. The older kids generally refuse to wear coats - they wear sweatshirts or fleece pullovers mainly and mostly keep them in their rooms. Now, there is a ton of crap stored in that mudroom, but none of it *needs* to be in that location for convenience purposes except for the dog related stuff. I finally realized that it was valuable space that be more useful as part of the kitchen and the other stuff could be moved. We have cubbies in there now, but if we convert the mudroom, I would make a mudroom space in the garage b/c in reality, that's really what they use as the mudroom. There just isn't currently dedicated/organized space for them there.

All that said, your last drawing is probably most similar to what I was thinking. However, it's seems like the counter top doesn't have one nice long work space. Maybe it's just because I'm viewing it on paper than IRL.

I drew up a sample layout though and just measured. If I keep the range where it is (tho it can be moved), I have about 7' to the left of the range of countertop and 9' to the right if I took the counter nearly all the way to the window. I could stop short of the window but we currently have the built-in cubbies all the way to the window frame and the door opens easily and with enough room to enter. For aesthetics though, that window might have to be altered or removed.

Functionally, given the "wants/needs" that I have, I'm wondering if this type of layout makes the most sense? I've never had an island, and use my peninsula a lot despite the constant paper/mail clutter stashed on it. I'm worried about whether it would be difficult to get used to having a prep sink there? But the only other place would be on the 7' run to the left of the range. Not sure that would work better or not? I also need someplace for the coffee maker. If I'm prepping at the island, it could go to the left of the range down toward the duct. But if I put the prep sink on that run, maybe then it could sort of be a beverage station in the morning? Any prep in the morning could be done to right to the range using the clean up sink.

Any thoughts? Any other layout/function experts want to weigh in?

One last thing to add, the powder room at the bottom is being moved and that corner space at the bottom will become my desk/command center. The kitchen table will then be turned so that it runs parallel to the island rather than perpendicular like it is now.

Thanks again Mama Goose!! So appreciate your drawings!

If you're moving the powder room...

Maybe you could move the first few stairs up so you can concentrate traffic flow and create a long wall for the kitchen with an island next to the family room? I think there's be seating for four so you don't have to have a second table.

I played around with putting the powder room, walk in pantry and a bigger coat closet where your current kitchen is. Maybe keeping the powder by the back door, you can preserve space at the front of your house and maybe also have a more private location.

I'm just throwing this idea out there for fun...

Ah, I understand about the garage--I have no attached garage in my older house, which is why I find the mudroom necessary (but always cluttered).

Can you post your drawing with the powder room replaced by the command center? If you have the space available drawn, with measurements on all walls, the pros might be more likely to weigh in.

I'm thinking that with the island reoriented 90°, it will block traffic path, unless I'm misunderstanding. Is this more like your plan?

Benje, your layout is interesting but would require too much renovation. I really want the bathroom out of that open space. It's embarrassing for guests as anyone can hear them in the bathroom currently. We don't use the front of the house often so putting it near the front entry will give it much more privacy. We also need to keep a kitchen table as we are a family of 6 and eat dinner together nearly every night, as well as for homework and projects.

Mama, I'm attaching a quick drawing I did to show what I have in mind. Your latest drawing has the island oriented incorrectly; your previous drawing accurately showed what I was thinking. ;).

For some reason, my measurements are a little off on the draft layout, in terms of the graphing but still pretty close. If I leave the range where it is (tho it can be moved but needs to stay on the outside wall), I would have about 7' to the left of the range and 9' to the right. I'd like to try to keep the aisle b/w range and island at 5' but it would be nice to have the island a little wider. I don't have it drawn accurately but think if I narrow the current aisle and leave the island where the peninsula currently sits, it's about 42" wide. I'd love to have it be maybe 48" especially if I have a prep sink.

I marked the area for the "command center" with measurements over by the stairs to show the space that would be usable once the bathroom is removed.

One thing I reaaaaaalllly want are windows on the range wall. I don't care how big or small but I really want some natural light coming in from that side. It faces south so windows would really brighten the space up. The downside is that it faces my neighbor's house 15' away. They are rarely home so privacy would only be an issue on weekends and for about an hour or two in the evening (they just have one window there over their kitchen sink. It's probably just about opposite my range.

One last thing...I think, structurally, I need to have some sort of column at the end of the island on the family room side.

You say that the walls can come down and all this stuff can move....but that is going to require a very robust budget. I'd hate for you to go to all that planning work only to experience a complete blockage by a 150K quote.

Live wire, thanks for the concern but I do have an estimate for much of the costs (the destruction, movement of bathroom, labor and some materials) and it wasn't a shock. I don't expect to come anywhere near the 150K mark based on the preliminary estimate.

Benje, that's pretty cool. I've seen other kitchens with similar windows but I really want my next kitchen to have cabs that reach the ceiling, or at least, don't have a dust collecting space above. I'm dealing with that now and one do the things I can't wait to get rid of with a new kitchen!

If your kitchen was open to the formal dining room, would you be more likely to use that table daily?

It seems redundant to make space for a kitchen table and an island when you have rarely used dining table next to the kitchen.

Oops, my mistake. I read that you were turning the table parallel to the
island, and interpreted it the other way around. That's a relief.

In
one of my drawings, I used little black squares to represent columns at
the end of the island, but I'm assuming you won't know exactly how many
columns and their placement until more discussion with your contractor.

If
you have the prep sink in the island, I think a 5' aisle is a little
too wide--you'll be scooping prepped items, and turning to drop them on
the stove. However, 5' is good if you put the clean-up sink and DW in
the island.

I'd put the coffee maker next to the MW, which I
placed next to the fridge. If you don't have to have the duct in the top
left corner, you could place your prep sink about where you have the
(7') drawn, then move the range more to the right. That would give you a
nice fridge-prep-range triangle. And you could have a window in front of your prep area, or have windows on each side of the range. Or a whole wall of windows. :)

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2672205/windows-on-side-of-range-hood

http://www.houzz.com/photos/windows-flanking-stove-/p/16

I like your latest plan, but I'd shorten the island by a foot or two to make the aisles on each end at least 48" (more if possible, research this, and be sure you know how far your fridge will extend from the wall) in front of the fridge and at least 42" anywhere else. I wouldn't want your main work aisle much wider than 48", so I'd just make your island a full 4' wide, which will give you a nice 18-24" overhang for seating if you like (or for a whole 'nother set of lower cabinets facing the dining room if you don't want seating there -- would be fabulous for linen and serving piece storage).

FWIW, I have windows flanking my cooktop, and I love it. I totally agree with you on getting some nice windows on that S exposure wall. Depending on the angles/views out that wall . . . you could do a nice wide set of windows over the sink area, or you could do a couple windows on that wall . . . You can never have too many windows, lol.

Not sure what's happening with the duct (in your last plan), but have
you considered a corner range? In this plan I've extended the fridge
wall again--I think the longer kitchen counter wins over the extra foot
and a half in the walkway. There's a pass-through to the DR--you can
plate at the stove, and dirty dishes can return the same way. The prep
sink is the larger sink, can do extra duty for washing large pans and
baking sheets, and is adjacent to the range. In this plan you could also
have an extra under-counter oven, or oven/MW combo, and make the long
counter on the right side a baking area. The shallow storage could be a
plate rack, or hooks for hanging pots, or a shallow shelf for baking
staples, in jars.

Hmm, that corner range is interesting and something to chew on. I wonder though, where would I put pantry cabinets in that layout? I was planning on having pantry cabinets to the right of the fridge (if facing the fridge) but not sure that would work with a corner range. The pantry will be storage for snacks and such which means my kids going in and out of that space, possibly getting in the way of any cooking at the range.

The possible layout/drawing I posted doesn't show the duct as you noticed, mama goose, but I just forgot to draw it in. Ideally he will put it in the top corner behind whatever cabinetry that would wrap that corner. He also suggested it could go behind the cabinetry on that left wall with sort of a dummy space (so IOW, the cabinets may come forward in that space but we have room to work with since that space is sort of recessed at the moment).

In terms of organization, if I had prep sink on island, clean up sink on top wall to the far right and range roughly where it is now, what would be ideal placement for coffee center, microwave, etc.? I also need to fit a beverage fridge, possibly on the end of the island closest to family room.

I think the shallow storage by the doors is intended to be pantry storage.

Could your beverage fridge go in the red square? And could the pink area be both a coffee and snack center? I would actually put the beverage fridge in the coffee/snack center (pink area). It looks like there should be room in the space where the powder room used to be for all that and it would be so convenient to have it all together. I'd probably go for a regular under-counter fridge instead of just a beverage fridge so you could store other snack fixings there as well.

Yes, as fc noted, the shallow storage can be pantry, especially canned goods. I have a shallow between-the-studs pantry in my kitchen and it holds lots of cans, jars, boxes of pasta. (Mine, in progress). You won't be able to do that on an exterior wall, but I think you have enough room in the space behind the door.

Although it's better to have the MW near the fridge, the under counter oven could be a combo, or just a drawer MW, if you don't need the extra oven, and snacks could be kept in a cabinet above (shorten the window), and in the shallow pantry. That way the grazers are on the other side of the kitchen from your work areas. Funkycamper's beverage/snack fridge would work especially well in that case. (If you need only one support column, the fridge could be turned to open on the right side.) Coffee could be on the counter above the MW/oven. Alternately, skip the beverage fridge and put the drawer MW across from the fridge, on the island, where the orange square is drawn.

Adding: The second oven could go under the counter between the range and fridge. With newer appliances, I don't think there are any issues having an oven beside a fridge, but you'd have a wall of stainless steel. (Actually, it looks as if the third pic of the corner range has an under counter appliance in the same location.)

Without a duct running behind the fridge, I moved it back against the wall, which means that the island can be a little longer, if necessary.

You could skip seating at the island and have MW, and all storage on the back side. With 4 kids, two seats might not be that useful--on a 6' island there is room for only three seats, and the table is very close.

Something else to consider, once you find out about the specifics for the support columns, is how to treat the one on the top wall. Since you have a nice, wide aisle between the top wall and the island, you could pull those cabinets forward a few inches (buehl posted this as a solution on another current thread), then possibly incorporate the column into a 'frame' for the window, with the sink centered under it. In that case you'd need to pull the corner range forward (or notch the counter), which would affect the width of the cabinets on each side, but leave more room for the duct behind it. Upper cabinets could be pulled forward proportionately.

Mama Goose, I love your shallow pantry. How deep is it, if you don't mind me asking? (Sorry to derail the layout discussion)

steph2000, it's 6½" to the front of the face frame, and since I used overlay doors, I can use all of that space. It includes the stud space plus the extra thickness where we had to add support for a laminated beam, next to the pantry. It backs onto a closet under the stairs, so I glued a piece of beadboard to the back wall, against the sheetrock already on the closet side.

If you scroll back on the link I posted, you'll find a pic showing the adjustable shelves--I change the height when I need m/l room for items I find on sale. (I linked the old pics, because after I installed the doors, each of my many family members has traced his/her hand print on the inside, and added the name and date.) :)

Hi, 4kids4us.

I played around with the idea of getting a total open concept from front of house through the back. I was wondering if you would use the front of your house more if it was open through to the back of the house

I also wanted to get seating for four at an island. And a beverage/snack area outside of the primary work zones.

The biggest obstacle, of course, is that load bearing wall between kitchen and mudroom. What if the load was carried in the family room instead of kitchen?

In our remodel, we created in niche for the TV, so the face of the TV is flush with the wall and takes up no floor space. You could inset the TV into a new wall in the family room, eliminating the need for a tv cabinet.

This plan created a large, open peninsula between the dining and kitchen. It might be nice to prep at the sink at the island since it looks like it would have have a full view of that main floor from there. This arrangement might be a bummer if you like to watch TV from the table, though (might have to add a tv to the living room with this plan.)

I know you want to put the powder room at the front of the house, but moving things around I found a powder room could be privately tucked behind cabinetry at the bottom of the stairs.

I know this is probably far from what you were envisioning, but I thought I'd throw a few more ideas your way anyway.

Just getting back to this thread after a crazy day yesterday. Started the day with a trip to the ER with my youngest who fell off a swing the day before; still complaining in the morning and turns out she broke her forearm/wrist in two places! Then ended the day with my oldest dd's sweet sixteen birthday party.

First, mama, I somehow missed the link to your shallow storage and only noticed it when someone else commented. I had to go back and look and then found your lovely kitchen! What fantastic use of space.

A couple of comments after a quick read thru of the recent posts tho' I will go back and study later.

1) seating at island would be nice when I have guests, but I don't need seating for all four of my kids there. I'm sure 1-2 would sit there having a snack,etc but never all of them together. The only meal we all eat together is dinner and that would be at the table.

2) shallow storage will not work in the top right. The door there needs to open and the frame is 6" from the corner. It would, however, work directly opposite. The other side of the door is stationary. It looks like a door and would open but there is no handle. We also have our firewood stored there in the outside. There is almost 7" on that side. I'd actually thought about using that spot to store brooms, etc but part of it could be shallow storage for canned goods, etc. that is a 4' wall.

3) Benje, you certainly are creative! Your design is interesting. I need to look at it carefully. I'm not sure we can open up that wall on the left to the formal dining though. There is duct work that links up with a bathroom directly above and IIRC, the contractor mentioned that we needed to leave that area alone.

My friend who has been thru the design process and has a good eye for not only layout but also incorporating oddities, was here last night. She gave me some good insight but we both agreed that it's time to meet with a kitchen designer now that I at least have a rough idea of what I can and would like to remove (walls) and a few possible layouts.

I'm sure I will be back with more questions!

Thanks to all who looked at this for me and offered input.

The pony wall is perfect for shallow storage, and since it's an interior wall, you can utilize the space between the studs--if you can work around any existing electrical boxes.

Thank you for the compliments on my kitchen. I hope your DD heals well--my youngest broke her forearm on the slide at the school playground, when she was 7. Your poor little one has my sympathy--six weeks with an itchy cast in hot weather won't be any fun. :(

Mama, that isn't a pony wall. It's a full wall so I have space up to the ceiling. Therefore it should work for shallow storage of canned goods but also leave some room for my brooms, etc.

This is our third broken wrist in just over a year. My 14 y/o ds broke his in a soccer game, then my 12 y/o broke his playing soccer in the yard last summer (and my dh broke his thumb playing pick up basketball with my boys during that year!). Only my oldest hasn't broken any bones yet, though during that same span of time last year she got a concussion playing lacrosse! We made it over 14 years with no broken bones now 3 out of 4 have broken bones in the last year and a half!

I am totally flattered to have been mentioned in the same sentence as buehl!

I have spent some time noodling over your plan, and this is unfortunately not a house of easy solutions. There really isn't an simple/cheap way to give you what you want. You're either going to have to spend more than you want to or compromise heavily. As with most of us, it'll probably be both.

In particular, that wall that you don't want to remove between the kitchen and the mud room due to expense is a real sticking point. It has delineated a small space, so if the wall stays, your options there are:

1) A SUPER cramped office.

2) A bathroom

3) A giant closet

4) A pantry

5) Some sort of built-in banquette situation (which would only work if the kitchen were moved to the family room)

6) Keeping the mud room you don't use

It's not as if any of these are terrible things, but you also want better access to the deck from the kitchen, and this small room -- whatever you make it -- is in the way. The only other room with access to the deck is the family room.

So then your options are:

1) Putting the kitchen in the family room and having great deck access from there. This involves moving plumbing, demolishing the fireplace, and shortening some windows. This would be expensive.

2) Living with poor deck access from the kitchen.

3) Spending the money to demolish the mud room wall so the kitchen can move down into that space. This is also expensive.

4) Building another deck on the side of the house, just for grilling that is accessible to the kitchen. This might be against code if you don't have much space between your house and the neighbor's. If your house is very close to the one next door, you'd also not be able to, like, socialize with people while you grill. The deck would be too small for hanging out.

You just have to weigh all these things, get real numbers quotes on the various options (many just assume something is affordable or too expensive without real information from a contractor -- you want to be basing your decisions on real information), and then decide what is for sure off the table and then start a new thread here with that information.

If the part of the wall between the kitchen and mudroom you had in mind keeping is 3' long or less, it is possible it could be seamlessly integrated into the kitchen if something tall (like a fridge or a floor-to-ceiling cabinet) is placed next to it. Then the kitchen could move into the mudroom space and have access to the deck.

The other sticking point is the bathroom privacy situation.

One option to fix the bathroom situation is you might consider moving your front entrance to the side of the house, like this:

Having the front entrance on the side is not an uncommon set-up for people with either a garage in front of the house or some sort of fenced-in or hedged-in private front yard. Here, the 1/2 bath, new closet, and stairs going up would all open off the new foyer. The 1/2 bath would be made more square, but it wouldn't really move, so that should save a lot of money on plumbing.

Overall, this change would create the privacy you wanted for the bathroom and makes a more sense of your stairs. The old foyer could be absorbed by the formal living/dining area (the old front door would be swapped for a window using the existing framing), giving you more options for what you want to do with that room.

I'm sure you've seen houses like this, but you'd just have to run a walkway up the side of house to the new front door like this:

And maybe do some work with pergolas/landscaping to make it grand and pretty and very clear from the front of the house where visitors should head to find the front door.

I don't know how important it is to you that the kitchen not be the first thing you see when you enter the house. Moving the front door is a relatively inexpensive change that gives the bathroom privacy, but either you'd have to be fine with the kitchen's being the first thing you'd see upon entering the house, or the kitchen would have to move, which is relatively expensive and defeats the purpose.

Other options for creating that bathroom privacy:

1) Putting the 1/2 bath in the mud room. This will likely be expensive (moving plumbing -- in particular, you don't have a waste line anywhere in that area). It also means the kitchen will continue to have poor access to the deck unless the kitchen moves to the family room.

2) As you have already thought, keeping the front door where it is and putting the 1/2 bath in the existing foyer. I can't make suggestions based on this since you said the formal dining/living area was out of scale, and it doesn't have full measurements. If you provide that, we can weigh in more helpfully.

3) Keeping the 1/2 bath where it is and adding a wall parallel to it on the other side of the walkway that goes past the bathroom. This would create a real hallway, which would mean privacy for the bathroom. However, this would really separate the formal dining/living and foyer from the back half of the house, which may or may not be a good thing in your opinion. It would also enclose a big part of the kitchen, necessitating some shuffling of the back rooms around, and I just don't see how that could possibly work well unless the wall between the kitchen and mudroom could come down entirely.

So I guess what I am asking is what your priorities are if you have to bite the bullet on some things. Which of these desired changes to your home matter the most to you, and at what point does "we have the money, but we'd rather not spend that much" becomes "we flatly don't have money to spend on this."

Jillius, so nice to see you weigh in! Thank you! I will try to address your points.

First, the 3' wall you mention, which is that? Presently, the plan is to remove the wall the sink is on but because it is load bearing, support will be needed in the form of a column of some kind. The only other wall you may be talking about is the one b/w the mud room and family room. That one does need to stay mainly because it's the only wall in my family room for the tv. But that wall doesn't really interfere with the kitchen space at all.

A couple of other things. I can't move the front door to the spot you suggest. We are on a corner lot. The driveway is directly under that window where you suggest putting a door. The garage is directly underneath my kitchen. Plus, due to setbacks being on the corner lot, we cannot add anything to that side of the house (main floor is elevated one story off the ground so stairs are necessary and we can't add them there). We also can't add a deck to the side toward the neighbor, also due to setbacks. We have a very narrow lot and our house is as wide as allowed (lot is 50' x 125'). Moving the kitchen to the family room would not be possible really, mainly because that room has windows on all three sides, 10 windows in all. The view is really nice, hence all the windows, so I wouldn't want to remove them to put the kitchen there.

The bathroom moving to the front of the house is an easy thing. Contractor agreed that is smartest place for it. Easy hook up to plumbing, much more private, etc. There is space there for it...currently a coat closet and dead space behind the door. There is no defined foyer. The front door opens to one big room about 23x15, minus the closet and the stairs. It's mostly a formal dining room but has a small conversation area as well as an armoire that is currently my "office." The plan is to move my "office" to a built-in shelving/desk/command center in the space currently occupied by the powder room.

Somewhere way up above I posted a sample layout if what I have in mind. I'm waiting to hear back from the contractor about together meeting with the kitchen designer. I think once I have that meeting I will have a better sense of what is possible (I have met with the contractor to discuss my ideas to understand if it is even possible to remove the walls, move the duct, etc) but wanted to go into that meeting with the kitchen designer with at least a basic layout in mind.

I guess I'm wondering if the layout I posted above is a functional layout, assuming the wall can come down, we use some sort of column, etc. making a column aesthetically pleasing is something I would talk with the designer about.

Again, thanks so much for weighing in, Jillius!

Can you please post some pictures of your stairs? Both the side going down and the side going up?

I thought 4' meant 4' tall, but full height storage is better! Here's another plan to consider before you meet the KD, this time with the prep sink in the corner (duct behind the sink), and a wall oven and tall pantry on the far right. The MW can be included in the oven stack and snacks for the kids in the pantry. The stack will block some of the light from the existing window and door, but windows on each side of the range will compensate. Coffee beside the fridge, and clean-up in the island. Deeper counters on both runs.

4kids4us Just to clarify... this is the floor plan you're proposing and the red rectangle I added is where you have ductwork framed in in the ceiling and where you have to have structural support column(s)?

If you have a soffit running across the ceiling, I think it's best to be mindful of it and try to make it look as integrated into the design as possible. I think it would work best with the fridge in the mudroom. Also, I think that wall that your Tv cabinet is on is creating just as much of a problem as the wall you want to remove.

Benje, yes where you have the red is the load bearing wall. And yes, we will need to have a soffit that runs the length of that wall b/c of the duct. On the top wall where you have the shaded spot next to the fridge, I was thinking of a support beam that runs from the ceiling to counter (or straight thru to floor if that is what is necessary structurally) but the front side of it could have a built in bookcase for cookbooks or display. These are just idea that my friend and I came up with but I'll be discussing with designer.

I understand why you think the fridge would work best there but one of the best views for the entire house (water view) are out those doors so I don't want a hulking fridge there. Also, the fridge would be the absolute furthest from the door where I bring in my groceries. Already a PITA lugging groceries for a family of 6 up a flight of stairs to the main floor so not having to walk all the through the kitchen to fridge would be preferred.

I'm planning to meet with the kitchen designer and contractor together next week so I will have more answers on that load bearing wall.

BTW, Benje, thanks for your continued input! Sorry if I keep critiquing your suggestions. It's hard to know what info I need to relay in advance and feel badly when time and effort is put into a drawing but then I find something wrong with it.

I guess I should add that due to the view out the back of our house which is basically a wall of windows, I don't want to close off the portion that is currently open b/w table area and family room. My kitchen would then be very dark and closed off and the house is so small to begin with. That means the wall the tv is on needs to stay as it is the only spot that makes sense for tv. But I honestly don't rally think that little wall is hindering the kitchen layout and gives me a spot for needed shallow storage.

After reading the last couple of posts, I think you won't want a wall oven and a tall pantry at the end of the top run. You can have the under counter oven, although it's not as convenient as a wall oven. I think it must be the same as an oven in a range, so if you have no problem bending down it should work. The MW can be on a shelf above, or on the counter, and the pantry can be shallow, floor to ceiling, or similar to a dish hutch. The width of the pantry can be adjusted to accommodate the width of the support post, when that is determined. Great idea to have a book case on the front of the post.

You're welcome. You seriously don't need to apologize, I really enjoy this process. The whole point is to make the most of your space--a space that no one here knows better than you!

We have a view that I am ridiculously protective of. Before we started renovating we did not live here. When my husband got home from work I would come over to the gutted house and analyze sight lines and make diagrams and all kinds of stuff to make sure we were making the most of the space. I totally appreciate you wanting to make the most of your view and the light.

Another question if you're up for it... Do you have view out those windows that flank the fireplace? That's the north side, right?

Ha, we have a view out of those windows...a view of my kids playing outside on our dead end street! Seriously, I don't want to give those up b/c I am constantly looking out them, especially when I hear my boys fighting, which is often, so that I have a birds eye view of what is happening for when they come inside and try to lie to me about whose fault it is! I could give up the one to the right of the FP, closer to the kitchen table (I've considered that in the past) and putting the TV in that corner. It would mean extending the wall a little bit for that to work, but there would have to be a very good reason for moving it there...the benefits would absolutely need to outweigh the cost for my husband to consider that.

So here's my train of thought on this one. Move the TV to the right of the fireplace (closing up that window), Change the french doors to a 6' wide fixed casement picture window, and add a full-lite swinging door to the short wall to the deck. The goals being 1) your view will actually be much better through a giant picture window than french doors 2) make full use of that former mudroom by fully incorporating it into the kitchen 3) direct traffic around kitchen.

We have a mountain view and the house used to have a sliding glass door in the living room. The center frame of the slider went right through the middle of my mountain, so I changed the slider to a big 6' picture window; it frames the mountain perfectly now. We added a full-lite swinging exterior door for access to the deck in a location that doesn't impede view as much.

My kitchen isn't much bigger than your mudroom, so I don't exactly know what one would do with approximately 24'x10' worth of designated kitchen space. That's huge. Don't pay too much attention to where I put kitchen fixtures as I just kind of threw them in there. I just wanted to toss out the idea of changing the doors. Also, it's nice to be able to see the fire and the TV at the same time, right?

:-)