Lol.

And you are kidding me about the lien, right? Problem is, it's control freaks who end up on those things, seems to me.

We have an HOA where I live. I would avoid them if I could, but they are hard to avoid in desirable areas where I live in CA. The benefit is that the homes all look nice and are well-kept. But there are negatives as well. We can be fined for not keeping our yard up to their high standards, and any painting, landscaping or home modifications must be approved first. We added a small gate to our front walkway and had to have multiple neighbors sign permission then submit it to the HOA council for approval.

When we were house hunting, I couldn't believe some of the monthly dues. One house was $460 a month to the HOA and it didn't even cover lawn care.

Not too far over the top, that one. ;-) One of the things on our house want lists, was no HOAs. (In SoCal that can really limit choices, in a market already experiencing limited housing availability.) But after 15 years with a landlord that was not entirely wired to code upstairs, we sure didn't want to pay for the privilege of having a group of "landlords" in charge.

HOAs about as good an idea as HMOs were.

No, Emma is not kidding about a lien. Homeowners' associations can be horrible. You know the old saying, "give someone a bit of power...." -- it's so true with HOAs.

We've owned two places where there was an HOA. The first was a single-family, detached home in Lake Forest, CA. The monthly HOA dues started out at $9 and went up to $12.50 during the six years we owned the home. There was no community pool, tennis court, etc. -- just greenbelt areas with century-old eucalyptus trees. The HOA fees were to maintain the greenbelt areas and trees. But the HOA was awful. The Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions (CC&Rs) included things like not being allowed to park in your own driveway for more than 2 hours, not being able to have your garage door open for more than 20 minutes, etc. They would levy fines against the homeowner, and if the fines went unpaid, they'd file suit to foreclose for the unpaid fines. And the law in California allowed it. (Don't know if it still does.)

The second place was a townhome. I can't remember now what the monthly fee was, but the CC&Rs were even more restrictive. You weren't allowed to park in your driveway at all -- not even for 5 minutes. No matter what color your window coverings were, they had to show as white or off-white to the outside. There was a huge brouhaha over the window coverings in one unit and the woman who owned the place was constantly hassled by the Board. She finally filed suit against the HOA. Her reason -- her unit had been a model, which had been professionally decorated by an interior decorator that the original HOA Board had hired. She argued that model homes are decorated to show what can be done, and since the Board had allowed her window coverings to be in the model without argument, they should be allowed to stay -- after all, you pay more for a model because of all of the upgrades and decorations. And she won.

(And for those who might be wondering about the difference between a condominium and a townhome -- with a condo, you own only the airspace between the walls, which is why you can have another condo above or below yours. With a townhome, you also own the land under your unit, so you could have a one-story or a multi-story unit, but not a separately owned unit above or below.)

One of the local papers ran a story several years ago about a HOA not too far from me, where the HOA board seem to be sue-happy tin pot tyrants.

The Story: Lawsuits bloom in dogwood valley

gyr...I assume you didn't make a mistake when you said the landlord was "not entirely wired to code upstairs." That's so funny.

There can definitely be an upside and a down side to HOA's.

Frankensteins.

FYI - I haven't turned anyone in.

My HOA supposedly controls the number and type of plants that you are required to have. I've upgraded my landscaping and haven't gotten any complaints yet. They did send a letter to the family behind me that built a wooden play set one foot too tall. I signed a petition to say I was ok with it. Not sure what the final decision was. They've sent letters to neighbors who parked on the street overnight, but either the guy across the street didn't get one or he is ignoring it. He didn't mow his yard after midnight again so I think someone may have complained about that. Lol!

I lived in a different HOA neighborhood where the neighbors would drive around and look for non-compliance so they could turn people in. We got a complaint against us for having our camper popped up for more than 48 hours. We were trying to clean and air out the thing. Another neighbor got turned in for having a visible vegetable garden that wasn't landscaped to look like it belonged there. Other neighbors were turned in because they didn't have the right number of trees. I had fruit trees in my side yard and possibly could have been turned in for that, but I was friends with the main complainers boss so they left us alone.

I've lived in a neighborhood of single family homes with a HOA for the last 20-plus years, and my experience has been very different from what others have described.

Yes, there are rules, they're for the benefit of everyone and to maintain the neighborhood. Before you do any work, you ask or, in some cases, you file an application - it's not too hard. We have no trucks or trailers parked in driveways, no run-down properties needing repair or landscape maintenance, no building or additions not in keeping with the broad appearance of the neighborhood.

Yes, I've heard neighbors complain about the Board. My response is always - "If you don't like what they do, then you should run for the next open seat". Few ever do, though i did and found it to be a fun experience. If your Board is composed of jerks, then the same solution applies to you. Ours never has been, and while not everyone agrees with every decision, they do try to do what's best for the common good. It's a "put up or shut up" proposition as far as I'm concerned.

PS to Lindsey, a townhouse is a multi-level home, whether in a development with an owners' association or not. They're frequently seen in older cities in the east and in Europe. Units described as "townhomes" can be in multi-storied buildings, a 10 story building could have 5 two-story townhomes, one above the other, for example. I'm also not sure if the distinction you make regarding land is correct or not and if it is, I'm not sure what difference it makes.

I am so happy we do not have an HOA we do have a civic club that tries to enforce a few minor things but they don't have a lot of power. So far we have been very lucky in not having to deal with one. It is one of the things I look for when looking to buy.

A friend of mine husband is a physician and opened a new practice near the Woodlands, so they bought a really nice house in an exclusive gated community in the Woodlands. They had a young baby. She had gone grocery shopping and of course had the baby with her. He was sick having a little stomach problem. So as soon as she drives into the garage she unloads the baby runs into the house to change him and take care of him. She left the trunk open with the groceries in plain view. Then returned to the open garage and car to get the groceries she had to carry in. When she went back out there was a note tacked to her garage from the HOA. Notifying her of a fine. The fine was for leaving her garage door open for too long they had actually sat there and timed how long she was in the house with the garage door open. The fine was $500. She was in the house long enough to change the baby and put him down. That is just crazy stuff.
They sold the house in less than a year and built out on some acreage with horse pastures, no HOA there.

Thank you all very much, this really surprises me. Every reaction I have gotten from my complaints were like, "you knew the rules before you moved in", "if you don't like it leave". I have tried twice in 2 years to find a new home without covenants and maybe one out of 100 will not have them, but the homes are not anything I would choose to live in. Even some homes 15 to 20 years old have them. The only way I can get the home I want is to buy a lot and hire a builder to custom build. To do that I have to be there to do that. I want to live near hills and lots of trees.

I live in Kansas and I think it's true every where, covenants can not by pass city and state laws. If the development is one that had streets are paved by the city that makes the streets public streets and you can park there any time you want. Also the board thinks they can come on your property and trim your bushes or change anything they don't without my permission. That is against the law. . I found a lawyer whose specialty is HOAs, he told me I was right every thing I told him. He said to call the police if they don't stop what their doing, the police know how to handle the problem. I asked what to do if they make changes while I am away, he said call me and I will file a complaint in court. The problem there is he can't help me anymore because he counsels with my HOA and has to tell them everything I tell him. I tried 3 or 4 other lawyers and they think the covenants are binding. My reply was "then we could get together with some friends, buy land, build our homes and write up a covenants that says we can smoke pot?"

raven..wow. Common sense and decency, along with Elvis, have left the building, I guess. I don't know how people rationalize stuff like that.

I suspect that the problem really is that the nature of an HOA board is inherently going to attract a LOT of people with control and power issues, and any gathering of people with control and power issues is not going to be very pleasant, esp. if it involves imposing that control and power onto other people.

Hi Raven C,

Aren't you glad that your friends were able to graduate from dealing with the horses' a$$es ...

... to having whole horses to care for?

ole joyfuelled ... who's overjoyed to live in a farmhouse with a fine landlord

I have lived in two HOAs and been on the board on both. I appreciate the "rules"....they keep up good appearances of all homes....and yes, we have had to place a lien on a house, after repeated pleas for the owners to clean up their property and paint the pealing trim. Yes, they were well aware of the covenants when they moved there!

I can't even imagine living like that. I guess these HOA's have become popular because too many people don't have common sense and pride in their homes? I am truly thankful that I live "out of town" on my own property.

Snidely --

A townhouse can, indeed, be a one-story unit if the ownership also includes the land.

The difference I described between townhomes and condominiums is definitely applicable in California. I know it can be different in other states. (For example, in New York, owned units are referred to as "apartments," whereas in California an apartment is a rental unit.)

And I base my comments on my experience earning a living doing real estate appraisals in California.

I'm also in California. Many moons ago, when looking for a nice apartment in Silicon Valley, I came upon an ad for 'townhouse units available." The meaning that conveyed, and what was advertised, were two-story units in a rental-only compex. All had their own outdoor entrance to a courtyard and were attached to other similar ones on either side. The complex had 25 rental units and was owned by an insurance company. I lived there for several years.

Here's something from Wikipedia - "The distinction between dwellings called "apartments" and those called
"townhouses" is that townhouses usually consist of multiple floors and
have their own outside door as opposed to having only one level and an
interior hallway access."

Older urban townhouses can also be called "rowhouses". In Britain, they can also be called "terraced" houses, though that term sometimes refers to lower cost units.

I'm sure others can contribute, but the terms I've most heard about owned units in NY are "co-op" and "condo". They're different legally but not necessarily physically. I've heard "apartment" used generically, without regard to whether owned or rented by the occupant. And, of course, you can have a co-op or condo building unit occupied by someone other than the owner, who would refer to it as "my apartment" just the same.

ravencajun, I lived in The Woodlands for 6 years before moving to FL 3 years ago. And LOVED it! There was nothing in our BY-laws about having a garage door open.

LIsaw that is exactly how I feel. The board president asked me one time "why don't you like me". I told him he was taking my property rights away from me. It's my home, I paid for the house, he didn't. Also I don't like big brother watching over me to make sure I keep my home is kept up. I don't need anyone to tell me that.

We have an HOA in our home in Florida. We currently rent it, so I don't know the particulars of daily living. The tenants don't have complaints. But, they had to give up a second car because they needed to put their camper inside the garage.

All of the outdoor spaces are handled by the HOA, so the problem of untidy yards or house, or houses in need of a paint job won't happen.

The house next to us is rented as well. The tenants have a motorcycle. When the year was up, they were told to get rid of the bike if they wanted to stay. They got rid of it or garaged it else where.

We did stay in the home for a week when we bought it. One of the neighbors came by and asked why w left our garage light on. It seems that people only leave their lights on when they are not home! We laughed at the time, but I really don't know if owners get violations. Again, our present tenants don't have complaints and they have been there two years.

Once again I am reminded how fortunate I am to live in grassroots America where this kind of interference is not the norm.

NO HOA for me, and I really don't see how they get away with what they do unless the people are afraid to confront them in court.

Well, HOA's are a choice. In some areas, it's harder to avoid them but there are always some alternative options. When you move into a house with an HOA, you accept their terms. These things are always disclosed in the real estate transaction.

It can be helpful if homes are close together. My grandma's community doesn't have them but I often wonder if people regret it as a neighbor painted their entire house hot pink! It's such an eyesore to look at every day.

I'm in British Columbia and condos are self-owned apartments while townhouses are self-owned rowhouses where you have your own front door and backdoor and no one living above or below you but you don't own your land. In both cases ownership is restricted to what is inside your 4 walls. Townhouses may either be a gated community or not. We have very few gated communities for single-family dwellings. We used to have Co-op form of ownership but it isn't built as a form of ownership anymore.

Each development has a strata-council that controls what you can do to the outside of your unit and controls how the unit looks to the outside. Eg, curtains and blinds from the outside have to be neutral in colour, many will control what you can and can not put on your balcony. These sort of things are usually voted on by the owners.

This type of real estate ownership is controlled by the Strata Property Act of 2000 and outlines the duties and responsibilities of the Strata Corporation (which owns all the public areas of the complex), the Strata Management Company and the Strata Council. This type of ownership is a very specialized field of real estate and is confusing to the rest of us.

We owned and lived in a townhouse years ago and we would do it again but you do have to do your due diligence because not all complexes are run as well as others. Some councils are more interfering than others and have stricter by-laws.

A friend of mine moved into a new townhouse complex that was sold as perfect for young families = close to schools, parks, shopping, good price point, 3 or 4 bedrooms, etc. A lot of young families, bought, moved in and funny thing, brought their children with them. A year later at the very first general meeting someone tried to bring a motion forward to ban children and make the complex adults only because it was too noisy with all the children. Everyone knew when they bought that it was sold as a family complex by the developer. But that is the power of strata councils, if it had passed they would have had to enforce it and all those young families would have had to sell and move. Fortunately the motion failed to pass.

Where I live the real estate market is so outrageously expensive that townhouses are often the only thing that young families can afford to buy.

Our *town* has rules and regulations that evidently are adequate. However, the town has its' own Busybody Committee.

When we were building our home, the "Building Review Board" made our lives miserable. These were mayoral appointments; no design or architectural qualifications required -- i.e., busybodies.

We had a teardown permit, yet the day the demolition began, we were issued a stop order. Someone (name withheld from us) complained. This three month delay over a winter allowed water to collect in the existing basement we had planned planned to save. The oak flooring we'd planned to save was lost. Mold remediation ($17K) was required when we resumed building. Although the teardown had been designed by a locally revered architect, the town had officially declared it was not historic and not a valued example of his work. (It was not a commission. He'd designed and built this cheap ranch 'on spec' for his Realtor-wife to sell.)

We had a building permit, having met all the town codes. Yet, the BRB wasn't happy with this and that, requiring us to alter the plans several times -- with costs to re-do them each time. They didn't always meet monthly -- more months lost. We had to move to temporary quarters after the deal on our former home closed. We had arranged a delayed closing to allow 10 months to build.

Although we were ten feet below the code for the rooftop, the BRB wanted it a foot lower -- new plans again. They demanded a wood shake roof (fire hazard and 12-year life expectancy in this climate). Fortunately, a neighbor had just re-roofed with shingles. They demanded simulated true divided light windows and french doors all around the house, which would have doubled our fenestration costs. They wanted dormers on the rear roof of the attic -- although only deer, squirrels, etc. see the rear of our house.

There were other demands. We lost a year, thanks to our very own local busybody brigade. However, once we moved in...no more interference; no HOA.

Are you wondering if this was legal? No, it wasn't. We could have filed suit -- and waited a year or two for the case to be heard. A few people did that, and the court found for them. I believe there are now new 'guidelines' in place to protect people from these dabblers.

I doubt every one of the subdivisions in the Woodlands has the same rules. It's a big area and getting bigger every day! I live very near to where she lived and we have no HOA here thankfully. Every HOA is different. Some ok, some good, some terrible. Rules vary. The problem there was not the Woodlands it was the specific new subdivision and their rules. Hers was very new, very estate oriented, and very gated, and along with that very regulated apparently.
I too love it here in this area, love the trees and the beauty of the area.
I could not live that way, I have lived on my own acreage for too long, very happy with the current situation here. Everyone loves this area and takes very good care of their properties. The civic club does step in when needed to enforce deed restrictions only.

I remember one of the new subdivisions we had looked at when moving, had just beautiful property and houses and I really liked one of them. But of course we asked about the rules of the HOA. One of the rules was that you could not own a pickup truck, no trucks of any type could be parked anywhere on the property. I said wait do they realize they are in TEXAS? The pickup trucks here are everywhere and extremely nice, some as expensive as the high end cars. People are proud of their trucks! We took that one off the list. I wondered what a person would do that has to drive a pickup truck for their work? Park it down the road and walk home? lol

Wow, I don't know how they can sell homes like that and I thought my association was bad. Telling someone they can't have a pick up. I wonder if they tell them before they buy.