I'm not sure how to answer the question(s) but I think it's partly a search for an "ideal" that society, or a sector of society, is looking for. Barbie, rightly or wrongly (and most people would say wrongly) seems to embody what was considered "ideal" when she first came out. (Ok, no brickbats to be thrown at me, please!)

Thing is, for all that Barbie seems to symbolize, there IS a male counterpart. No, I'm not talking about Ken but that seeming embodiment of masculinity, GI Joe. (MAD Magazine actually did a very interesting parody of these two back in the 60s where GI Joe was shown as shipping off to Vietnam while Ken was shown as fleeing to Canada to dodge the draft!) So, for all of Barbie's weird measurements and figure, GI Joe's muscle-bound image, with the latest instruments of war dangling from his Sam Browne belt, compensates for the male populace.

On the subject of manga/anime, I think it's partly neotony and partly that they ARE pretty. Again, I think they're idealized -- a lot of the manga/anime characters are seemingly child-like in appearance BUT they act like adults (or seemingly seem to), something that I think a lot of children secretly yearn for. Or, if they don't act like adults, they get to do stuff that the audience would, possibly, WANT to do -- battle endlessly without getting hurt, go on quests, have superpowers, etc., etc.

I think the same holds true for those older fads like Hello Kitty (better look this up if you've never heard of it!) and other Sanrio figures. I think the Hello Kitty and other similar animal characters (and I'm not talking Bugs Bunny here) are basically stripped down versions of what people find cute and cuddly in the real animal. Hello Kitty has a simple round face but also has the button nose, whiskers, and, of course, that ever-so-cute bow ribbon! Oh, but Hello Kitty DOESN'T have the nasty traits of REAL cats like claws, fur that sheds, etc., etc.

And if you're looking for other fads and figures, how about Bart Simpson? There was a time in the 90s when you couldn't turn a corner without being assaulted by his image! Or, how about Betty Boop?

Barbie in her 50s/60s incarnation is pretty tame compared to dolls marketed today. I've told my girls many times -- no Bratz dolls, ever. I'd like to get my hands on the person who thought of sexing up baby dolls.

dynomutt, good points about the idealization factor, but it's just so strange how "ideal" fluctuates. Which comes first? Is the art influenced by the ideal or does the ideal grow out of the art? Example: The Gibson Girl became all the rage, I think, with women trying to look like the art. Probably some women wanted to look like Barbie, too -- in fact, I've known a few of them.

My sons had a few of those contortionist, muscle men figures that were popular in the late 1980s and early 1990s. I thought they were hideous, but the boys loved them for a while and I tolerated them because I figured they would grow out of their fascination -- which they did.

Some of you artists and those knowledgeable about art history: What was the name of the nineteenth-century style of painting that depicted women in highly romanticized form and situation? They usually had very long, loose-flowing hair -- auburn and titian the favored colors. Seems like their gowns were also free-flowing, very different from the corsets and heavily-structured garments that were the actual fashion of the day.

Good grief, georgia! I had never heard of Bratz dolls, so I looked 'em up. I will readily concede that the manga anime figures are pretty compared to those tarted up things. There are those big eyes again, but those don't have the innocence. The main difference is the mouth, but once again noses are barely there. Why don't we want dolls to have schnozzes?

Betty Boop! dyno, now that's a long-lasting image. She's absurdly shaped, but I can see the appeal, in a way. The neotony theory holds true there with her pumpkin-shaped head.

Frieda, I believe the art style you're referring to is Pre-Raphaelite, embodied in the work of Dante Gabriel Rossetti (brother, I believe, of poet Christina Rossetti). I've always loved this style, and was completely bowled over when I finally had a chance to see some of the paintings in person when I was in London back in the 1980's. I think I was at the Tate, but it's been so long I don't remember.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pre-Raphaelites

Frieda, Sheri is correct --- she beat me to the posting! Supposedly the Pre-Raphaelites were a throw-back to the Middle Ages, the jewel-like colors, some of the religious themes, etc.

I read that the Gibson Girl was based upon an actual woman. I've forgotten the details, now....

Yes, the Pre-Raphaelites. Thank you, Sheri and Mary. Some of those paintings and the women in them are so gorgeous, but I always thought there was something oddly distorted about them -- elongated, maybe. Mary, if they were throwbacks to the Middle Ages, maybe there's an explanation there. Some painter during that time made all his figures strangely ectomorphic, and it seems the reason was he had an eye problem, or something else, that was visually distorting what he painted. I can't remember who he was. Maybe you know.

The original Gibson Girl, I think, was one of the Langhorne sisters of Virginia. Irene, maybe? I just know it wasn't Nancy!

Sheri and Mary you also beat me to it re. the Pre- Raphaelites. Frieda you probably know all about Holman-Hunt, Millais, Burne-Jones et al and 'every picture tells a story'. Out of fashion for too long; I love their work.
You can go from them onto John Ruskin, Wm Morris and the Arts and Craft movement and sideways to Oscar Wilde and Aubrey Beardsley. Have you ever seen the lampoon of the 'poets' of that 'High Victorian' time in Gilbert and Sullivan's Patience?
Mary the Gibson Girl was modelled on one of the VA Langhorne sisters, Irene, married to Charles Dana Gibson and from a family famous for producing 'marriageable' daughters, one of whom became Lady Nancy Astor after her marriage to Waldorf. A leading between the Wars London hostess, party-giver at Cliveden and the first woman to take her seat in the House of Commons.
Many famous set-to's with Churchill. She is reported to have said to him (from the floor of the Commons) "If you had been my husband I would have given you poison" to which he replied "Madam, if I were your husband I would have taken it."

Back to the topic! I had NO idea what anime/Manya is. Had to look it up and found it hasn't really 'caught on' in the UK and thank goodness because what an apology for Art.
Dyno, I've never heard of 'Hello Kitty' (have I been living in a hole in the ground?) but am familiar with Bart and Homer and although I have little time for those plastic over-priced models I think the show is really clever and very funny and we in the UK believe ALL Americans are just like the characters from Springfield.

Last Call to Frieda. Still NO email has come in.

No, Vee, I don't know all about Holman-Hunt, Millais, and Burne-Jones, but when I looked them up I found that I recognize their work. I'm most familiar with the one about Ophelia as the subject. I didn't notice the curious distortion I was talking about above in the paintings of those three; but I looked up Dante Gabriel Rossetti and there it is, so it must be peculiar to him. It is something about the women's necks, I think.

Vee, I had never heard of "Hello Kitty" either, but apparently I'm worse off because I've NEVER watched The Simpsons. Oh, I recognize the figures and know they are based on a television show, but I couldn't tell you which is Bart and which is Homer. They sure are crudely drawn, in my opinion, but I'm told that's part of what makes them so funny. Several times you have mentioned American TV programs that I have never seen -- most recently Cagney & Lacey. My cultural awareness has gone to pot -- er, no, maybe I shouldn't use that phrase because it could be misunderstood -- rather, it's not what it once was.

Vee, apparently my email is on the fritz if you haven't got any of the three I've sent to you in the past few days. I am traveling with a laptop. As soon as I get back to civilization, maybe I can figure out what's wrong. So don't hold your breath.

Since the Pre-Raphaelites are mentioned, some of you might find Elizabeth Hand's take on those images interesting in her novel, Mortal Love. The book cover features one of those images, and one of themes of this gothic thriller is the relationship between the muse (or what inspires them) and their creativity which eventually drives them mad. I don't know much about art, but I've always been attracted to explorations on this theme, so that is what brought me to this book. Also, Oscar Wilde's imperious mother makes a very impressionable cameo appearance in the novel.

the phrase above should be "relationship between artist and muse..." (hopefully that was implied, anyway). Not enough coffee yet, I suppose.

Frieda, regarding the distortion in the Rossetti figures, I always thought it was the powerful jaw lines and (could you call them 'Roman'?) noses his women had. The long neck and masses of hair added to the overall look, as well.

Getting back to manga/anime, the only cartoon I'm familiar with in this category is a TV show my kids watch, Avatar: The Last Airbender. While the cartoon characters here aren't as google-eyed as others I've seen, they are heavily stylized but also nicely drawn vs. the simpler lines of the Simpsons.

Generally speaking, I was very surprised to see how large a space is devoted to graphic novels and manga when I was recently in one of our local chain bookstores. I guess I'm officially out of touch with pop culture when an entire section of a bookstore is completely unfamiliar to me!

Here is a link that might be useful: Avatar: The Last Airbender

I can't see the attraction of manga/anime, but I can tell you that it is very popular in our book shop. We not only sell a lot of graphic novels (comics in book form, IMHO) but also many books on how to draw manga.

The thing I think most interesting about Barbie is that she was originally marketed as a doll for teenagers, but now every 4 year old worth her salt has two or three. My sister has still got books, the size of the books you got with the Barbie clothes in the 60s, which were cut out from our best selling women's magazine and folded and stapled at home, that tell teenagers how to look like Barbie. (Does that make sense?)

I like the Simpsons in small doses - I think it is very clever and quite witty, but I just can't watch one episode after another like my sons can.

Re the Pre-Raphaelite elongated necks, powerful jawlines, etc.

I didn't have time earlier to elaborate...

One interesting notion is the implication of androgyny and masculine beauty in Rossetti's female figures. For example, if you go to Wikipedia, compare Rossetti's portrait of Algernon Swinburne with some of the female images... There is a resemblence, don't you think? I guess if you want to see it, you may even see a bit of Rossetti himself in his female figures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Swinburne

Frieda, the artist you are thinking of who made his figures "strangely ectomorphic" was El Greco. This has been attributed to some bizarre visual condition he had, but I don't think anyone has proved it.

Guess what, here is another poster who does not know who "Hello Kitty" is and never has watched "The Simpsons." But, then, I watch a lot of films, but very little TV.

Re the Pre-Raphaelites, John Ruskin was also a huge player in the group.

Count me as another fan of the Pre-Raphaelite art movement, along with the closely related English Arts and Crafts movement, and the American Craftsman school it developed into eventually. There I'm much more attracted to architects Greene and Greene than I am to Frank Lloyd Wright and the Prairie School.

As for big-eyed manga and Barbie dolls, I have a funny story that relates the two. Near where I live there used to be a Barbie Museum, and the woman who owned it had a more complete collection than even Mattel. In a little side area she had a collection of Barbie dolls marketed for the Japan. Those Barbies looked different from the American ones, more child-like in their bodies, like young adolescent girls, and with huge manga eyes. But there clothes were even sexier than those of American Barbie dolls. I found them disturbing.

Rosefolly

Well, I'm not surprised that not a lot of people here know about Hello Kitty or Sanrio. I think it was mostly an Asian phenomenon -- mostly Japan, China, and possibly Korea. That being said, I think SOME of the phenomenon has spilled over to the West.

Just to give you an idea of how much Hello Kitty is marketed as a brand, I remember seeing a Hello Kitty branded TV/VCR combo machine AND even a Hello Kitty microwave! (Hello Kitty is supposed to be for kids!)

Ok, for the uninitiated, here's a picture of the Hello Kitty character :

{{gwi:2117416}}

Here's a link to info on Hello Kitty :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello_Kitty

Here's another Sanrio character, My Melody :

{{gwi:2117417}}

Ok, while these characters are MASSIVE in Asia, I think they have counterparts in the West. There's a counterculture symbol called Emily Strange. Here's a picture of her :

The Emily Strange character is now getting to be quite popular -- her image (and that of her cats) can now be found on clothing, stickers, etc. But there hasn't been an Emily Strange car as yet. (There was a Hello Kitty version of a Mitsubishi car. Really.)

Another Western counterpart to the Sanrio characters is Strawberry Shortcake, created by American Greetings originally to be used as in greeting cards and which has now expanded to cover dolls, posters, and everything else they can pawn off on people. Here's what this character looks like :

{{gwi:2117418}}

What I find interesting about these characters is that they have no underlying reason for being except to promote themselves. Bart Simpson and the other Simpsons are, arguably, promoting the TV show. The Barbie image is promoting the Barbie doll. These characters started out as (from what I can determine) being images branded on items to sell those items. After that, the characters became commodities themselves -- the items became secondary to the characters printed on them!

Interesting, no?

Here is a link that might be useful: Info on Sanrio

Sheri, yes, the more I look at the Rossetti women the more I think you're right: it's the jawline and probably the noses too, along with the necks. I realize that artists develop quirks of style, and what Georgia brought up about Rossetti's male figures resembling the women, I think Rossetti was painting the same person over and over -- perhaps himself. I'm not sure if this makes him (or any artist who tends to do it) any less talented, but there were/are artists capable of depicting realism in its infinite variety -- they could capture the way people probably really looked, warts and all. I think realism in art was appreciated more before the advent of photography, so it's probably no coincidence that the Pre-Raphaelites and their romanticized views were contemporaneous with the development of Daguerreotypes and other photography.

One of the arguments I've heard against Norman Rockwell's paintings -- besides their obvious sentimentality -- is they look too real. Maybe, but when I look at his work, I'm agog that he could paint in such accurate detail. I think his artwork will probably be used in the future -- along with photography -- to check for historical accuracy and the prevention of anachronisms in depictions of mid-twentieth-century Middle America in writing and filmwork, because if Rockwell didn't paint it, it probably didn't exist at the time. We scour, for example, the Dutch masters' works for the same reason.

Sheri, the Airbender figures look almost normal to me!

Rosefolly, I ran across a site devoted to the Japanese "Barbie," but I can't find it again. I agree with you, the contrast between the childlike dolls (narrow shoulders, very little bosom, knocked knees) and the provocative clothing and the ways the dolls are posed is disturbing.

Thank you, dynomutt, for the images. I will have to relearn how to do that. I've not seen "My Melody" or "Emily Strange." I have seen "Strawberry Shortcake." Why are they all so unbearably cute? Is it a comfort thing? Thinking back to when I was a teenager, we did like cute, unthreatening things, but we also liked some things that were downright UGLY -- some may remember those troll dolls. And Alfred E. Newman was goofy-looking. What's the guy's name who created the "Keep on Trucking" fellows? That's caricature and probably goes by different rules, but the appeal of that kind of distortion probably had something to do with inhalation and ingestion -- again saying a lot about what tickled the cultural collective fancy.

Well, my girls are the right age for the marketing of Hello Kitty and Strawberry Shortcake merchandise. What annoys me about SS is that the language in the films and books is too cutesy. For example, that cake is berry good (instead of very good). When you are trying to teach a child to read, the cutesy language is not helpful, though I'm sure it is entertaining for them.

Are the Precious Moments greeting cards making a comeback (and was there another line similar to this one)? I remember these being popular in the 80s. My daughter got a Precious Moments card for her birthday, and she loves the look of the angelic child figures with their cherubic cheeks and big black eyes.

I always thought the Cabbage Patch dolls were so ugly they were almost cute.

I'll never be converted to the troll phenomenon, though. We once had a lady who worked in our HR Department whose office was covered in those things. I wondered at the professionalism of someone who interviews people for a living with those troll dolls leering at them from her office desk.

I always thought the Cabbage Patch dolls were so ugly they were almost cute.Yeee! The Cabbage Patch dolls -- that was a cultural hankering that I never understood. Has anyone seen the Geico commercial on television about the Cabbage Kid grown up? He looks to be over six-feet tall and about 300 pounds. Weren't the Cabbage Patch kids a take on the Raggedy Ann and Andy dolls that were so popular a few generations earlier? I never liked the Raggedys much either. Maybe it was because they were soft and huggable that children (and adults) liked them so much.

That reminds me: I had a soft-bodied "Mammy" doll -- or maybe she was "Aunt Jemima," I can't remember. I also had a black baby doll that was called "Buckatha," no kidding. Those wouldn't be tolerated nowadays, probably, because they are not politically correct. I'm not sure why there was such a fad of giving little white girls black baby dolls. I sure wasn't aware of any incongruity at the age of five: Buckatha was my favorite baby doll for a year or more and I still had her as late as my high school years.

I had a mammy doll, too. But it was a double doll, in that when you turned it upside down, the upper half of the body was White. Reverse that, and it was Black. Very strange. I also recall reading "Little Black Sambo" as a child.

Anyone remember the "Sock Monkey" dolls? Did you like them? And the "Pound Puppy" fad?

Does any one remember those 'Love Is' drawings of about 20+ years ago? I always found them vomit-making but they seemed popular with some people. I was looking for some eg's on Google and came across an alternative collection . . . much ruder than the 'cute' originals. I have not included them below.
BTW is cute a word that is taken at face value in the US? We don't use it over here but 'understand' the meaning to be rather sickly sweet; is this correct?

Here is a link that might be useful: Love is . . .

I remember readin the "Little Black Sambo" book when I was a child. And we had a golliwog for a toy. (Anyone remember those?)

And yes - I remember the Love Is... cartoons. I didn't like them myself - they weren't funny at all so why were they on the cartoon page? - and I also thought they were vomit-making. Maybe it's the Englishness in us that makes us that way. :-)

Yes, I recall those awful "Love is...." pix. Would that be an example of "naff"?

I first heard about the Golliwog toys from a Scottish friend. I assume they were a British invention?

Vee, I could never stomach those "Love Is ..." drawings -- would they qualify as twee?

Frieda, I had several small troll dolls and they lived in my otherwise-traditional doll house when I was a child. I still think they're amusingly ugly-cute, and I bought a couple for my DD a few years back. She populated her own doll house with them.

Woodnymph, the "Sock Monkey" seems to be coming back as a trend, I've seen their image printed on pajamas and bed linens, in addition to the stuffed toys. For some reason I find them a little creepy, though I really can't say why.

Vee, cute doesn't mean sweet, although "cutesy" may. A "cute" girl might be one with a sprinkle of freckles on her nose and an outgoing personality. Its meaning would be more "attractive" than "beautiful." A cute outfit, for instance, would be attractive as opposed to smart looking.

Then there would be "too cute for words" in a sneering tone that would definitely be derogatory, but a "too cute for words" baby would be a darling. Confusing, isn't it?

friedag --

I think the guy who did the "Keep on Truckin'" stuff was Robert Crumb. I've seen some of his other works (he also created Fritz the Cat) and some of them are .... quite disturbing. If you ever get the chance, you should see the documentary on him and his family. Artistically, I think the family was brilliant but it was a case where genius meets insanity across a very very thin line.

Here's the link to the IMDB entry on the documentary :

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109508/

Anyone ever notice that, whenever there's a "cute" phenomenon, there's usually a counter-phenomenon? I remember the Cabbage Patch kids and their, uh, nastier cousins -- the Garbage Pail kids.

Oh, and let's not forget those lovable blue creatures, the Smurfs!

Dyno could you (or some other mutt) please explain how to put an image/picture into the screen in as simple a way as possible as I am almost computer illiterate?
In return you can view the very pink and totally yukky My Little Pony clip below as a change from your usual movie fare of The Man-eating Slime-maiden Devours Mr Spock translated into Klingon.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Little Pony Giggles Too Much

Here's the original post from kwoods on the movie forum as to how to post pictures :

*****
You can search google images for an image you want to post, then go to "see full size image", copy the image location then write this little piece of code including the copied image location (take the spaces out before and after the .

Oh and images should probably be smallish, say smaller than 300 x 300. It tells you how big they are in the google images search results. Maybe this is too tech-ie? We could always just do quotes. Let me know if you need any help or if my directions are unclear.

****

Basically, copy the code above (the ) into your post and remove the spaces before and after the things. Copy and paste the picture address in between the quotation marks. Hit the "preview message" button and if it shows up ...... VOILA!

Now, how do you get the image URL? Find a picture on the Internet you like. Right click on said picture. Go down to "copy image location" in the options presented. You've now copied the URL that the code needs. To paste it, just hit CTRL-V.

And Mr. Spock was NEVER devoured by a Slime-maiden. That was Capt. Kirk. (And it was translated into Ferengi and NOT Klingon.) ;-)

Neep-gran Yoba Dyno I will start practicing.

Manga is Japanese cartoons, anime is animated cartoons. Last weekend my hometown of Uppsala was taken over by 2000 manga fans, many doing Cosplay, for the 5th UppCon manga/anime convention, the largest event of this kind in Sweden. Cosplay is dressing up like your favourite manga figure. The city was invaded for three days by teenage girls with pink hair in pink faux furs, proud to be "otaku", Japanese for nerd. Manga is more popular with girls here. Many study the Japanese language and hope to visit Japan.

I am 63 and have never read a manga cartoon but in Sweden it is not possible to be unaware of this phenomenon. My 6-year old grandson owns 1,000 Pokemon cards and I think the manga trend started among those who grew up with Pokemon films.

My husband collects Robert Crumb cartoons, prints, posters, music, and movies so he must be considered another "otaku". I collect garden books, rose books in particular, and do not consider myself a nerd!

I remember having nursery pictures of idealised children from the thirties that I think were drawn by Mabel Lucie Attwell with a poem below relating to the picture.
Mariannesse, did you ever hear a song about Uppsala, called "She fell down for a fella from Uppsala"? one of those nonsense songs that stick in the mind even after hearing it 60 years ago! I can also remember songs sang at the pantomime following the 'bouncing ball'. Why do those silly songs come to mind and more sensible things like what was on the shopping list I've just left at home, vanish?

Annpan, I don't know your 'Uppsala' song but it brings to mind the (in)famous Hut Sut Song in 'cod' Swedish which I remember from my distant childhood. I think it was popular in the '40's along with similar 'nonsense' songs Three Little Fishes, Mairsie Doats etc.
Is anyone old enough to remember it yet cannot recall why they just went upstairs?

Here is a link that might be useful: Hot Sut Rawlson plus all the words

Veer, yes, I recalled that song after I downloaded the link. I couldn't play it, possibly because I only have 32k on my dial-up (on a good day) but when I read the words, a singing group of American girls played it in my head! I must have thousands of tunes in my brain. Who needs an IPod?
The Uppsala song probably dates from the thirties. We only had old gramophone records to listen to, as children. During wartime, records were very precious and the needles used most carefully. We had a little gadget to load them otherwise we children would not have been allowed to touch the apparatus at all.

Veer, you are a pest! I now have the Hut Sut song running through my head and cannot get rid of it. I've tried overlaying it with "The flat foot floogie with a floy floy" but that hasn't worked.
To get this thread back on track... thanks for the memory jog about pictures of big-eyed 'toons. My great-grandson has made an appearance and I shall look for a character picture for his nursery. I've presented him with a full boxed set of Beatrix Potter books so may find a corresponding picture. [Goes into hunter-shopper mode :-)]
Thanks for the earlier suggestions from RPers about a suitable name for myself. We chose Nanna Nella which is a short form of the suburb where I live. I thought that it sounded pleasant and easy for a child to say.

Annpan, I've never heard the Uppsala song. I am not very musical and hardly ever sing but I have to restrain myself when I am sometimes served mortadella sausage at our weekly breakfast meetings, luckily very seldom. The ditty that always comes into my head is an old French vaudeville song "Car elle est morte Adèle" I learnt in school. This song was understandably the beginning of the decline of the name Adèle in France.