I'm guessing I might be the Miss Manners...so does that make you...he who determines what psychological background needs tending? :)

A3: Name their new line of clothing after the deceased?

Have a great New Year and I hope you realize everyone can have a sense of humor...especially about decorating! LOL

Oops, I should have said design, not decorating.

Also, what exactly is a decadent shower?

Davidro1,

I hope your post does not imply that your spouse recently passed away. If so, I am truly sorry, even though I don't know you.

As for decadent showers, here's mine. It cost a small fortune, but that seat and all those jets are great for my back problems. So maybe to some people it's decadent, to others it's therapeutic??? Either way, I'm not sure a shower can be immoral.

I've written a couple of answers ......and discarded them......Decadent is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. The difference between Bill Gates' checking account and mine is no comparison. On the other hand the difference between my net worth and someone in a third world country is no comparison. My very modest kitchen doesn't even compare with most on this forum but compared to what I had and what I need, it's perfect. My cheap tile walk in shower is more than I ever dreamed of. I wonder what some woman who walks to a well 2 miles from her tent thinks about that.

Pinch me - well said.

I think decadence is like pornography, we just know it when we see it, lol. It also is in the eye of the beholder at times.

May 2011 bring everyone all of what they need and some of what they want ;)

Brilliantly said dianalo.

I just realized I plagiarized a line from pinch me. It was what I was thinking as well and did not realize was a word for word lift... Guess imitation is the greatest form of flattery, lol.....

I am the author of the "decadent shower" posting. First some background: A couple of years ago, I stayed in a bed and breakfast that had a sliding shower head, four body jets, and an overhead rain head. It was positively one of the greatest experiences of my life. However when I started telling people (both on the GW forums and in real life) how long I actually stood in that shower and enjoyed its pleasures, I was made to feel so guilty for wasting the world's water resources that it no longer was a fond memory.

I took a closer look at my personal habits and stepped up my family's conservation efforts. I now only take showers that are 4-5 minutes long and we actually use a timer to control the length of shower my teenager takes. But the horrid truth is that I still want that shower. I am willing to only use it in it's full glory only a few times a month, but I so desperately would like to be able to escape for a good half hour in my personal water retreat.

So here I am now, struggling with reconciling my deepest desires with my personal beliefs. That's what prompted my post. Maybe the shower I have described is not decadent to some, but to me on my modest public school teacher salary, having something for pure pleasure is the definition of decadence. Apparently some people, even me to some extent, think that using such a shower is not decadent, but wasteful. It's really a conundrum for me because it is so out of character. Heck we don't even flush the toilet after every use! (I know that may be TMI, but we are currently in a rental with ancient toilets that take like 5 gallons of water to flush!)

How much water would a 20 minute shower use? Do some research, check on the Internet and find out from someone who sells them...and then you'll be able to make an informed decision.

Do you live somewhere that has problems with water rationing? Do you feel guilty about how much water the shower would use, the cost to heat it, or both?

The best advice I can give you is be as informed about all the details as possible...then make your decision.

When some GW members expressed concern about my woodstove placement, I looked up all the install information on the Internet. Still needing more information, I spoke with a local woodstove installer, about that specific stove. When I got all the dimensions, installation materials required, pipe placement etc...I felt much better about my decision (realized I needed to add a few additional feet to my plan) and my woodstove would easily fit in the space.

Good luck with your decision :)

Isn't it a question of moderation? What is wrong with an occasional indulgence as long as you make rational trade-offs? Sounds like you offset the extra water use by cutting back consumption in other ways.

The problem arises when you believe you are always entitled to the very best no matter how it impacts others, or when you feel good about yourself because your possession is better than your neighbor's.

Ncamy,

Ignoring whatever weirdness inspired this post I might be able to help you with your water issue!

There is a type of shower system now that they sell that I'm dying to get my hands on.

It has a shower basin much like you'd pick up at HD so that you are standing in a little 3" trough of water. The way it works it that you get in the shower and shower your normal shower, the "get clean" shower. Then you plug the drain so that the little trough fills up with the clean water that is running over your now clean body. When the trough is full you flip a switch that sucks the water out of the trough and reheats it before sending it back out the shower head. When done you just flip the switch and pull the plug and the shower is over.

You can shower as long as you want with the SAME clean water.

I think it's one of the best ideas I've ever seen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Quenchshowers

morgne: what a cool idea! Although that shower sure does look tiny for this plus sized gal...

Thanks for the ideas and support folks! I have always thought it was a little weird on those forums that the morality police seem to come out of the woodwork when you start talking about wasting water, yet no one raises a concern when you mention a cooktop with 22,000 BTU burners or a ventilation fan with 1200 CFMs.

BTW another interesting product I ran across was a flowerbed irrigation system that uses household grey water. It says that the soaps are good for the plants. Who knew?

I did! *laughs*

I think they also sell the shower in kits so you could tile a larger basin.

That's what my broad butt remembers.

Great food for thought, or wait I mean healthy nourishment
for the soul. Thank you.

" Renovating forces us to face both the real and the moral spheres, at the same time."

Definitely on GW.
Cheers.
~boxer

As far as water, I don't know, but I would guess it depends on the part of the country you live in. Out west, we do have a shortage of water, and the future doesn't bode well, especially if cities continue to grow. I personally don't really care what you do with your shower, but maybe that helps explain things. (Does nc stand for North Carolina?)

It's funny about the thread title/subject, as I was just in my kids' bathroom this morning, thinking about similar things. We did a kitchen renovation last year, and pretty much pulled out all the stops. Meanwhile, the tile is falling off the wall in the master shower -- I literally have not used it in 8 years, I just go across the hall to the kids' room, and DH goes downstairs to the guest bath. I even turned my shower stall into closet storage last year.

One day we will remodel the bathroom, but it needs a LOT of work to make it awesome. And my kids bath is just the basic hall bath, tub/shower, low counter, nothing fancy. Many of their friends have big walk-in closets and en suite bathrooms, and sometimes I think it would be nice to add a small bath in my daughter's room. There is definitely room.

BUt then I think ... WHY? She can share a bathroom. THere is nothing wrong with sharing a bathroom. (Not only with her brother, but sharing her shower with me, too!) THey have a lot of extras, when compared to most people, but by the same token, they don't have as much as many of their friends.

I guess I like it that way ... I've almost consciously *avoided* redoing the bathrooms, not because I can't afford it or don't want to (brown porcelain fixtures in the master!! aack!!!), but just to keep us at some lower level of luxury, for some reason. I don't know how to say it, exactly. I don't think of it as MORALITY, at all, but maybe just REALITY.

Seg - you had me laughing because when we moved in here 4 years ago we assumed the master shower had a leak because there was a crack in the mosaic floor. We never turned the water on, not even for the inspection, because we knew it was going to get redone (horridly ugly, not quirky). It was used as a closet from day 1 for us.
I bought a self contained shower unit that also had a steam feature and assorted gizmos for dh because he wanted a larger tub that our normal 5ft whirlpool tub from the p.o. in the family bathroom and we did not have the space in the re-do to fit a 6ft tub in ours (and I really think one jetted tub per house is plenty). Over time, we realized that we had a full bathroom steps from our master and another in the bsmt (thankfully, we are using it now during the reno) and did not need a 3rd full bath for 4 people. We re-did it into a more comfortably sized half bath and regained a few inches of space for the room itself. I now have a 30" vanity instead of the 18" one. The toilet is being moved over by 2-3" to get dh's longer leg away from the radiator when he is on the bowl (maybe tmi?).
For us, the 3rd bathroom was more than we needed and we feel good about getting more bedroom room and a nicer half bath.
This new Quenchshower, which is less wasteful, would have been a strong contender if we had planned it in before getting town approval on not doing one and having paid a ton for revisions to our plan to the architect already. The space is also framed, plumbed and wired for a half bath. Sigh. I wonder if it can be done over an existing tub somehow? Maybe when our tub dies someday, we can put this in our family bathroom. Dh loves long showers and it makes me nuts to think of how much is wasted. This would be so much better in several ways.
Our world as a whole will be short on water in the future, and everything reasonable we can do to minimize that is what we should be doing.

Absolutely well said, Motleydog.

I am sorry that the Green Police ruined your wonderful memories of that great shower you enjoyed on your vacation. Phooey on such killjoys. For heaven's sake, if you can't indulge yourself on vacation, then when else would you?

Build your shower, with body jets if you want them. Enjoy it. And, most importantly, make no apologies. You choose this ONE area in your life to let go a little and be "decadent". You are not going to kill any rainforests or run the city dry of water with this one place that you are splurging. And you are still a good person.

Have fun. And don't forget to post pictures. :-)

Cj
:-)

I think that because of someone else's belief, that person passed judgment on you and made you feel guilty for something you enjoyed one time in your entire life. It was a shower a long hot relaxing shower. Something you deserved, don't let them take away from you.

So what if you decide that you want to get a shower that has a few bells and whistles.

If it makes you feel better, use those bells and whistles once a week, or whenever you feel like you, and only you can justify it.

Enjoy life, in a way that you feel comfortable with!!!

I've read remarks from people who felt that _x_ was beyond the limit.
x =
an Instant Hot Water tank.
heat cables under a stone counter (a radiator).
"too many" mirrors because of the vanity it creates.

People have been known to react with "moral" indignation when something goes farther than they are used to.

If anyone uses the world's ecosystem as a supporting argument, someone could point out to them that they have always been able to use a bicycle for ONE of their necessary trips and they didn't, that they have always been able to take ONE of their necessary big trips by train not plane and that they didn't do it, out of convenience alone. Shame, shame, shame. Bandwidth is available for high quality video conferences too. Governments can be forced to hold video conferences instead of calling meetings: the next G20 world leaders summit will cost a lot to fly thousands of employees, and a few billion in security too. And tell me, why is it just the little person who is forced to have a catalytic converter in their vehicle? What about all those other vehicles?

Sometimes people just want to put down what they don't have. I've heard people tell me they wouldn't want drawers in their kitchen cabinets. They admit the cutlery drawer is good, but they say they wouldn't think drawers would be practical for other things. When you describe drawers in better terms to them, then they say it's a nice-to-have but unnecessary feature that they wouldn't want to blow money on, uselessly. Resistance is hard to overcome when people just want to resist.

When people add a moral argument to their resistance, they start growing a permanently self-justifying stance.

Some renovators feel hammered by these remarks and this can lead to feeling it may not be right to have a shower that one might call "decadent". This is one kind of problem. It's all psychology.

At the other end of the equation is the thread originator who tells people they are rude, when the information given in these participants' remarks is neutral and factual enough to be supported by evidence and experience.

This is similar, because this too is completely all psychology, and the morality card is played.
.

It's hard to know what "green" is when it's being manipulated by media and advertising. A slightly informed but well-intended consumer can be misled. I have a pile of home decorating mags from the last 5 years that have issues and spreads and articles about "going green." Some show highly indulgent projects rationalized by the inclusion of recycled glass in a designer countertop or triple glazed windows in a wall of glass without any window coverings or any possibility of adding them later. Some tout woods from the far side of the globe that are certified as being sustainable. Some merely suggest that you use vinegar and baking soda to clean your stuff and ignore the sourcing and the production and the energy use of the various materials and applicances. Some blithely insist that fabrics be linen, cotton, or wool and have nature-inspired designs on them and that wall coverings be made of grasses. Some merely say to use products that give off fewer fumes upon application. Give me a break! There's much more to learn and these mags are not the place to do it. It takes work and resolve and time.

In my community in the late 19th century, lumber and mining and railroad barons scoured the world for suitable stuff to make their homes on Summit Avenue and Lowry Hill rival European ancestral mansions, to the extent of importing whole rooms of antique paneling, ceilings, chandeliers, etc. bought under the influence of the Grand Tour. The European Renaissance and subsequent European manias of style were their models--their perceived route from the nouveau riche niche into the old money niche. Additionally, they plundered the Far East for treasures (that have now made their way to the Mpls. Institute of Art). Their houses were built with no regard for energy conservation, ergonomics, or resource preservation. Their goal was to spend money in order to show the world they had money. And taste. And luxury. And servants. If we still hold this model in our heads, we're headed for a bust. Nevermind your religious beliefs. There is a new nationalism now, the idea that energy conservation and living lighter on the land is a national security issue. Consider the idea that there just might be some truth to the cry by the underclasses of the world that we are living too high and too selfishly and too oblivious to their situation. It is the reason for terrorism--go read the pronouncements of our terrorist enemies from the 911 period.

Compared to the humans of the past, today's Americans live incredibly comfortable lives, even many of our poor. We have electricity, plumbing, comfortable clothing, and ways to acquire a free education if we apply ourselves. Social class can no longer be discerned from clothing or other externals and there is a muddling of the classes--unless we pull out our tax returns and compare incomes, since in the end, Americans have no hereditary aristocracy. "The Millionaire Next Door" is a concept that surprises the heck out of people living in modest neighborhoods, the foreclosed "MacMansion" is now a cliche, and the impoverished inheritor trying to deal with the family's robber baron house is less of an oddity. An "old money" guy I know who has a Porsche is trying to come up with enough cash to address his snow-ruined roof. Stuff still defines us, but not always in the way we want it to.

The truth is that almost all our choices these days in consumer economy America have global implications. There's a lot of wisdom in the idea of thinking globally and acting locally. I also think that the "not so big" house with features chosen for longterm use can be as comfortable and satisfying as the big house with the fashionable toys--this is an idea that was spawned in the same community as those mansions, a few blocks away from them.

Unless you are in bankruptcy or a legal dispute, there is no one policing your money use except you and your own personal restraint--spend all the money you like, buy all the luxury you like, but do so with eyes open and with knowledge that is gleaned from more sources than just the ads and the Parade of Luxury Homes and the examples set by those whose values are actually out of sync with your religion or your nation or your conscience. "The Great Gatsby" was written by one of those unfortunates who lived just off Summit Avenue in the generation that followed the building of those St. Paul mansions; the lust for the big house and the implications of it are the subject of that story. Unlike the leeches who attached themselves and flattered him, when Jay Gatsby died there was no honest adoring audience to validate his material world. He was simply a dead guy floating in a swimming pool.

Interesting how threads like this often trigger a rant (pun intended).

Those homes on Summit Avenue are probably highly sought after and hugely expensive, due not only to their beauty, but the high quality workmanship that went in to their construction. And still, only rich people can afford them.

I don't think there is any moral issue in renovating, unless you go kill your neighbor for his shower, or money. There are certainly issues of taste - both good and bad, but bad taste is not immoral.

If it's your money, you can spend it any way you want. For example, Bill and Melinda Gates spend their billions on philanthropy, but they apparently had just enough left over to build a huge home on Lake Washington. I bet they have a great shower. On the other hand, Steve Jobs apparently doesn't spend any money on philanthropy, and he probably has a great shower, too, maybe even better than Bill Gates' shower. BTW - I'm writing this on my Apple computer. As much as I like Apple products, I find myself uncomfortable enriching Steve Jobs even more.

I'm not going to apologize for living in 21st Century America. We are a successful, prosperous nation, compared to most of the world, but we as a people, have worked hard for our success and prosperity. It's what everyone in the world strives and sacrifices and even risks life and limb for.

Should we be satisfied with our small tract house, making no improvements as it falls down around our ears. Is it wrong to build an addition, update the kitchen, put in a finished basement? I don't think so. The large majority of Americans live well within their means, despite the headlines, we have nothing to feel bad about or apologize for.

Huh? This thread wandered off into water conservation, but am I the only one wondering what the OP's intention was when posting this cryptic thread? David care to come back and enlighten?

I think it boils down to balance. We all on GW have it better than most people in the world with living a comfortable life. We can certainly continue to do so with a green consciousness.

I do think that some things are moral choices, like knowingly buying illegally gotten exotic animal parts, blood diamonds, etc...There are a lot of people who feel it is immoral to buy a dog from a puppy mill and enable their cruel practices to continue.

I also think consumption just because we can afford it can be taking more than one's fair share of the global pie and that comes back to bite us as a country. I do not lead a spartan life and do not forgo material things, but one can do offsetting things to help lessen our impact. It is also simple to not waste, like not running water while brushing one's teeth or not buying a Hummer type vehicle for city driving. As consumers, we should learn what we can so as to make good choices. We also can choose to recycle garbage and reuse or give away items that have life left in them. Btw - I'd consider littering/dumping toxic waste to be immoral as well.

Treating the world like it is all disposable and created for our own use soley is selfish and shows a lack of care for our future generations and wildlife. If there is an option to get an Energy Star product vs not, I'd hope we all here would choose the efficient one. I am not talking about drastic measures, but doing the day to day stuff that you can to do well by the planet. Not using any extra plastic grocery/shopping bags is another.
I notice a lot of people here are animal lovers, so if we damage our earth, who do you think will take the brunt of that?

To quote an old song:

"You see, you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"

Sorry David; I see you did post back. I guess you addressed your intent, but I don't understand this in your original: "Here's my contribution, ready for the New Year:
Q: how does a narcissist social climber express empathy to someone whose spouse has died?....." Really hope that isn't something you're dealing with!

As for the rest of it. Why the need to ask questions like "Am I bad for wanting..."? You know a Q like that has a predictable answer. You'll get some soothing affirmation you're looking for and you'll also get some completly opposite responses which will most likely be interpreted as self rightous, judgemental and tick you off.

Why post about bad manners in one forum when the bad manners happened in a different forum? If it was so upsetting why not address the offenders in the forum where it occurred or ignore it instead of taking it out of context by looking for affirmations and allies in a different forum?

Please know I'm not picking on these 2 threads, and by "you" I don't mean the OP of those threads. Those were the 2 that were mentioned and I'm just talking generalities.

I'm pretty new to GardenWeb, but I've seen a few others in the same vein. Reports of GW kitchen forum being biased agains wood or contemporary kitchens, only being for "rich" people's kitchens. Complaints about threads not getting attention or many posts because there are favored "regulars" and therefore they don't intend to hang around after their kitchen is done. Designers posting their work and getting ticked when people are honest about what they don't like.

I guess my point is why ask Q's that BEG for a judgment of your own character or the character of others? That's just looking for trouble. And if we don't have a tough skin for honest opinion about our projects and tastes we probably shouldn't post.

I hope this high school "mean girls" stuff (for lack of a better description)is rare, because GW appears to be a fantastic resource with tremendously helpful people. I haven't ventured beyond the kitchen forum, but my goodness I'm so thankful so many people are willing to share their thoughtful ideas, expertise and resources! Some amazing contributors offer more detailed and more professional looking design and layout plans than I can get from paid professionals!
It's awesome. Thanks and I look forward to more great info in 2011!

Island - I think the whole idea of the post is to stir the pot and keep it lively (unless I am reading davidro wrong).

It is funny, but I have heard it mentioned that modern and contemporary styles are less accepted here and I just don't see why they say that. They are less frequently done, but the praise is just as high if not more for them when we see pix here.

I also see so many wood kitchens done and appreciated as well. I'd even venture to say they are approx half of the finished kitchens.
I think the main deal is pretty & functional are appreciated no matter the style or price range. DIYers are applauded for being so talented and putting in the work. It is true that expensive things get drooled over, but the more modest stuff is more realistic for the majority here (including me, lol). In fact, in this thread you can see how consumption for consumption's sake is less admired than it used to be here. I think that is a good thing (if you couldn't tell by now, lol).

OK everyone listen up:

island nailed it.

island has also "seen a few others in the same vein." Questions from some people, who need reassuring, worded in ways that just polarize the ensuing debate with very predictable responses, which then polarize the community too, into two predictable camps. This is ultimately a downward spiral. It's also far far more polarizing to start a thread title with morality play wording.

island said: "... why ask Q's that BEG for a judgment of ... character ..." Yes, I too think it's "just looking for trouble."

Let's be balanced. Perhaps we can reassure people who need reassuring, while at the same time we tell them not to get so personal. "Getting too personal" is my way of defining it. In island's last paragraph it was defined as something else. All good.

H t H

OK everyone listen up:

island nailed it.

island has also "seen a few others in the same vein." Questions from some people, who need reassuring, worded in ways that just polarize the ensuing debate with very predictable responses, which then polarize the community too, into two predictable camps. This is ultimately a downward spiral. It's also far far more polarizing to start a thread title with morality play wording.

island said: "... why ask Q's that BEG for a judgment of ... character ..." Yes, I too think it's "just looking for trouble."

Let's be balanced. Perhaps we can reassure people who need reassuring, while at the same time we tell them not to get so personal. "Getting too personal" is my way of defining it. In island's last paragraph it was defined as something else. All good.

H t H

We've seen movie stars describing with pride the "green" features of their second and third homes. Friends built a "green" country house high up on a mountainside in a California wildfire zone. A new book describes the "[Famous Family's] Green House": but this couple has six children -- what are the hydrocarbons associated with that longterm?

But I'll bet the builder and subcontractors who built those projects felt pretty good about paying their mortgages, and funding their retirement accounts and sending their children to college, and having something to show for their days' work (unlike a trader in subprime mortgage derivatives?).

The ground under the chosen vantage point from which moral behavior might be determined is constantly shifting.

I can't tell whether I'm off-topic or not....must be the codeine in the cough medicine.

Happy Flu Year
Lynn

Dianalo Post to "stir the pot", oh dang I hope not! People get provoked and irritated even without a push; that was part my point. GW is difficult enough to search and keep track of useful threads and I'd rather not waste time weeding thru spitefulness or psychological drama when there is so much useful info to be had. I can get enough of that other irritating stuff in my professional life! :>)

island, I hope you are finding the info you need for your kitchen and that you'll stick around.

The friendly interaction here can be fun when kept in perspective and focused on kitchens.

For those who are here to complain about the choices of others or seek the meaning of life, there's a conversation side for that.

You'll find a link at the top of the page.

I did not mean davidro was doing that in a bad way, but was making light a little and being playful. At least that was my guess.
I take things seriously at times, but it rankles me to hear people sounding at times like Marie Antoinette and so disconnected with the effort to keep the world in decent shape and to turn things around. Baby steps have a way of adding up, so hopefully, everyone can just do a little bit more and set a good example for the next generation.

Yes steff the info on this site is fantastic and I'm not going anywhere. Usually lurk more and absorb more than I post since I'm in the embryo stage with my remodel plans.

Dianalo I figured you were just playfully stirring MY pot! LOL.

I have been thinking about this thread (the start of it) a lot for the last few days. Especially about the discussion about the balance between living a simpler less consumption-oriented life (which I think is a good thing in itself, apart from focusing on green decisions) and having in our renovations things that give us joy.

I have found that on each specific consumption decision I needed to make (e.g., what faucet to buy), GW has opened up for me a lot of possibilities and considerations that I didn't even know about. In some cases, this led me to spend less (e.g., discovering Ticor sinks-- great quality and very inexpensive). In more cases, this led me to at least explore spending more, having been exposed to a range of more expensive options than what was in my immediate area. But if I could hold back from the pure consumption flurry (e.g., how cool that Karbon faucet is), it helped me focus on priorities (e.g, metal guts to faucets so they don't wear out) so that I felt a lot better about where I had chosen to spend and where not.

I also feel that this forum is open to Ikea and lots of less expensive resolutions. Even though it has pointed me toward more expensive solutions (by exposing me to their existence), people have felt open to a range of spending levels.

Now that I am almost done, I am almost having withdrawal from this pure consumption oriented way of thinking. We rushed through our kitchen because of having a water disaster start the process, and at times I couldn't bear to think about buying another thing.

Anyway, my toddler is calling. Just wanted to say thank you for all the information and help in what I have found to be generally a very welcoming helpful broad-minded "place."