Kitchen Layout help

15 years ago

We're at the beginning stages of our remodel design and I am hoping to get some feedback on what we have so far. I've included a link of the currently proposed layout.

I'll take a go at describing our situation.

The Kitchen walls will be 8 feet high, with a higher ceiling in the middle, centered 10 feet from the Exterior wall where sink is positioned in proposed layout. The plumbing and gas are moving. The window can be repositioned anywhere. If the large sink stays on the exterior wall, the window will likely go above the sink. However, the sink need not necessarily have a window above it.

The doorway from the garage will enter the house into the front hall, which will mean a U-turn into the kitchen, (which we can live with)....Or we can place a door from garage to Kitchen on the Wall where the cooktop and refrigerator are currently positioned.

We'd like to keep the walkway from kitchen into front hall, Study doorway also opens on this hall across from kitchen opening.

The Pantry structure has not been built yet.

In this kitchen, I'd really like lots of storage, lots of countertop/work surfaces, a kitchen table, and a baking center.

We are a family of four, who all either cook or bake. We often have 3 people in the kitchen, two cooking while the third person bakes.

The kids (teens) often have school projects going, so sometimes their books are sprawled on the dining room table and we end up eating at the kitchen table. So, I was hoping to fit a 48 inch round or oval table in this kitchen as well. From what I've learned in this forum it does not seem that we have the space for both a kitchen table and seating at an island.

Regarding appliances:

36 inch Cooktop

42 inch Vent hood

Double Wall Ovens

Warming drawer

Microwave (either shelf or built in, but not a really large one)

48 inch wide Refrigerator- 25 3/4" deep

Two Dishwashers- Standard size

Beverage fridge under counter, or wine fridg (don't know if there's room for both)

Other ideas:

21 inch Wide Prep sink in the island

a cleaning closet or cab for broom, vacuum, cleaning liquids/powders (how wide min?)

Pantry for storing items from Costco runs (paper towels, bubbly water etc)

Bookcase(s) for lots of cookbooks

Storage for small appliances (ice cream maker, rice cooker, juicer etc.), many many baking pans, stone, cookie sheets

Water filter under sink

Pull out Trash and Recycle bins

skylight(s) above center of kitchen

Thanks so much for any suggestions! Overall I'm hoping for a kitchen that will support multiple activities happening simultaneously. I am trying to keep form in mind since I typically go for function over form.

Thanks again.

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Comments (15)

laxsupermom
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Welcome to the forum and congrats on embarking on the kitchen reno adventure. Initial thoughts: The space between the table and island is really tight. There'd be no way to fit through with a chair pulled out and it'd be tight even with noone sitting there. The baking center is really far away from the ovens with no easy way of getting there. You have a great big space to work with and I'm sure one of the layout experts(Rhome410, bmorepanic, buehl, etc.) will be able to come up with something that really works for your space.
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laxsupermom
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Also, have the appliances been purchased already? or is there wiggle room there?
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I don't usually see the need to swap out a fridge for a CD model. If it sticks out and cuts into a walk way I'd do it if I could financially. I would allow extra inches around it (even if a filler is needed) in case a future fridge is wider. the corners - I agree with rhome on being consistent with whichever type you use. I do think the diagonal corners cut into your space - makes it much more difficult to reach into those corners! The upper diagonals put the cab door smack in your face and give too deep of storage- where things are lost in the back. alternate upper corner cabinet - the pantry - I think it's fine and space like that can always be used. you can use the different doors/shelf areas to separate types of items - like canned goods in one, breakfast and other dry goods in another, 1 for baking supplies, 1 for snack items/juice/soda and /or water bottles. Unless you have a definite need for a counter space closer to the dining area I'd keep it as is. I don't think it's too big. doorways - foyer - I don't see the need for a wider doorway there (am I missing something?). will there be a closet in the foyer? DR/LR doorway - that might be a good idea to check out. make sure your table will fit thru the doorway w/seating also. or you might just set up another table in the LR lined up with the doorway. We did that at my sister's for holidays - there was a large archway between her eating area and her LR so we put another table in her LR running up to the archway so both tables were close together. It was a 'T' arrangement. base cabinets - drawers, drawers and more drawers!! why so few drawers? it looks like it'll be a big, beautiful kitchen with lots of cabinets and counter space! I'd put in more lower drawers tho.
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:) I'll pile on and agree that it's going to be very nice but that you'll really appreciate compacting your actual work areas within all that space. One benefit will be getting the stove out of your dining area and up by your island so you can work between them. It's not what you asked, but since this is going to be your main (most used and most important) dining room, is it everything you want it to be? Is there another view, more sunshine, a cross breeze, wall for art--anything--you would want for it, or are those solid walls intended to edit the outdoors for privacy and view? Regarding what you did ask, I have a landing space next to the fridge on an inside wall opposite an island/L-counter like yours, and I always ignore it to set-pivot to set my stuff on the work island--42" away. Putting a landing area next to the refrigerator is traditional and not a bad idea in any kitchen, often used or not, but it's often not at all necessary. Imagine: You're making stuffed pork chops at the island and need celery and parsley from the fridge. You're standing at the fridge getting them out. Would you set them down next to the fridge, close the door, pick them up again, THEN turn and set them on the island? Go ahead and try it out, but the answer's going to be no. :) BTW, where do you think you will be chopping your parsley? By efficiently by the stove or on the island? When you do your step-back-pivot from the fridge, where are you going? I've been assuming the island, but you have lots of work counter by the stove. One thing about compacting the work area is that it should give stronger purpose to an island that might otherwise mostly serve to direct traffic away from the cooking area. Is there only one entry into the kitchen? If so (especially if so) in your case I'd put the narrow aisle between island and stove and widen the main trafficway. I have 35" counter-to-counter where I prep and love it. It works very well.
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I would try another full height, shallow depth pantry cabinet, rotated 90 degrees to it backed into the other pantry cabinet. Same thing with shallow bookshelves and with angled corner shelves. Also maybe try two full height, single door pantry cabinets or slightly smaller full height pantry cabinets with wine bottle cubbies between them on one side of the ref. It's really hard to tell aisle and such from a perspective drawing - they can be really misleading. So take this will a little salt. It looks like you have about a three foot aisle between the fronts of the pantries and the peninsula. Even if you get a counter depth ref, it will still come out into the aisle about six inches including the doors and the handles. Plus another inch or two will go to adding decorative panels on the end of the peninsula cabinets and the countertop overhang. So you're aisle may turn out to be more like 28" there. Can the ref be maneuvered into or out of its place without removing the peninsula? Can you open the freezer completely? Are you ok with having to close the freezer door, walk by it and re-open to reach something on the other side?
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I don't know how deep the bay window well is (you said to ignore the measurements -- but the depth & length would be very helpful!) I will say that we did something similar -- we had a table space in front of a shallow bay window in the Kitchen that we grew out of very quickly. We replaced it with a counter-height bay window and ran cabinets across it but not in the bay itself. The counter did extend into the bay, but not the cabinets. We have approx 24" b/w the back of the sink and the window with an overall depth of 45" from the back of the bay window to the edge of the counter. I have long arms and cannot reach the back window to clean. I can barely reach where the counter meets the window. If yours is as deep or deeper, I recommend doing one of two things: Eliminate the bay window altogether & replace with a window similar to the other one in your Kitchen -- but at counter-height, not raised. Replace the bay with a box window that is no deeper than the side windows and straighten out the side windows (i.e., no angle) What is feasible and/or worth the cost will depend on the structure of your home. E.g., is the bay cantilevered past the rear wall of the house (ours is) or is the bay an integral part of the back wall? What is the exterior of your home where the bay window is -- brick, siding, etc.? Given the amount of changes you're talking about, I think you will be better off replacing the cabinets so you're not jury-rigging them to force them to fit where they were never meant to fit. BTW...if you have a full basement under the Kitchen (or even a crawl space), it usually doesn't cost all the much to move plumbing. Regarding the range -- if you plan to put it under a window, then you should switch to electric from gas. Check your local Code, but I'm not sure you're allowed to put a gas range in front of a window that opens and/or you may be required to have at least 12" b/w the window and the range. I'm not an expert and no one can tell you for certain what is/is not Code in your locality without knowing where you live (country, state, county, and, sometimes, town). I recommend you research whether there are any restrictions in your area. It's also possible there is no Code to prevent it -- but that doesn't mean it's a good idea! E.g., with gas, an open window could blow out the flame while the gas continues to flow; the flame could be "distorted" by a breeze coming in, which would affect cooking; if you keep the wood trim around the window, it could be a fire hazard. Definitely no curtains or other flammable item too close by! Also think about cleaning -- grease splatters, etc., on the window. Have you considered moving the range to the bay window area instead of the sink? It would allow you to have plenty of space b/w the window and the range and give you space for the range hood that you'll need. Just don't have an operable bay window If you would like more help, a fully-measured layout is needed. The one you posted only has a few of the necessary measurements. Here's an example of what we need: Also see the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread.
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bmorepanic
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
First thoughts - and I should have been a fire marshal or somethin' cause I usually just notice what's wrong...

Probably not going to be able to do a separate table in that way - but you could have a "table-island." You need about 4-5 FEET between the table edge and the island for seating and a passageway. Even just to use chairs, the table needs to be positioned almost 3 feet from the island. What are the heights of you guys?

How attached are you to the pantry/oven/closet thing? There is a minor conflict possible between the closet doors and the ref doors, more major is not being able to stand in front of the oven while opening it. There is also an access issue to the pantry with the table chairs.

It would be tons better to have the baking center have direct access to the ovens and the ref (depending on what you bake - Somebody should explain to me why pie dough is so sleepy that it always needs to rest).

The ref looks a bit out of the way for grab and go snacks or using micro. In that type of ref arrangement (sxs) landing space should be directly behind the doors and there's nothing there...

The micro would be on a shelf? Are there upper cabs that we aren't seeing? Do you use the micro for actual cooking or is it a reheating device?

Is the window position finalized? My understanding from the drawing is that the window runs over both dws and the sink.

Do you USE the garage?

Where's the coffee? (seriously, it's too overcast to think).
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laxsupermom
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
This was a quicky that doestn't address everything that bmore brought up.(Didn't I say she was one of the experts?)

The double sided pull through trash pullout I cribbed from loves2cook4six's kitchen(I think) It would service both the clean up person and the cook on the other side.
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cathyincali
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
wow! Thanks so much for the suggestions and things to consider; as always you all bring up some excellent points to address.

I'll try to answer the questions posed thus far.

laxupermom- we have not purchased any appliances yet. Although, DH says he would rather not have an oven under the cooktop. As far as the usage of space, I was feeling like the current proposed layout is not a very good use of what seems to be a large space. So, I am very appreciative of any and all input. Hopefully you don't mind me asking, what tool/program do you use to draw up a layout so quickly?

bmore- I am not wedded to the pantry/oven structure, although we do need a wall separating the kitchen from the front hallway. This wall needs two openings, one across from study door, and the other opening near the support wall near the dining room. Thanks for pointing out the 'not being able to stand in front of the open oven door' issue. That would not be a pretty situation. ;-) Regarding the pantry door, I thought we could use two 'half width' doors instead of a standard width door. Our current laundry room has a couple of these narrow doors that go in a standard width doorway and they seem to work just fine. Although, as you pointed out, the space seems tight even with the narrower doors, given the too close proximity to the table/chairs.

I was beginning to wonder if we have space for both the table and the island. I just really like the idea of two large & different well definable work areas. (But I guess since they're placed so close together, they are currently not so distinct.) Regarding our heights, we're on the 'petite' end of the spectrum. I am just over 5 feet, kids are 4-5" taller than I, and DH is 5' 10".

We haven't quite figured out where the microwave will go. We mostly use the microwave for reheating and minor cooking.

Regarding the baking center, I hadn't quite internalized that a table & island of that size would be difficult to walk around. Thanks for pointing this out. I was trying to carve out a nice chunk of space for baking, but perhaps I can use the island or table for baking(?).

Thanks for mentioning the need for a landing opposite a sxs refrigerator.

There will be upper cabinets, I just haven't drawn them in yet.

The window position is not finalized. Yes, the current proposal is to place a 5 foot window centered over the sink w/standard dishwashers.

Yes, we use the garage, and that is currently the door we use most. Our current garage-kitchen doorway is located roughly where the refrig is in the proposed layout, but we're willing to move the garage doorway to the front hall if it means there will be better continuity within the kitchen.

That would be awesome if we could find a spot for a coffee & tea bar!

Thanks so much for all your help!
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laxsupermom
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Currently I just use Paint on a saved graph paper grid, but Santa got me an actual design program even though DH and I discussed not getting each other gifts this year. He's such a sweetie, but forgot to get the e-mailed confirmation out of my e-mail box(all amazon purchase confirmations go there.) So post Christmas after a learning period, I'll have actual software to play with.

Trying to incorporate some of bmore's concerns in the next one, but first I need to think about lunch. 4yo is demanding sustenance.
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rhome410
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I noticed the same problems as laxsupermom, and not as many as Bmore (typical).

Can the table move toward the family room or be in it?

The baking center across the room (and around and through things) from the oven is a definite problem I don't think you need to have. Is it only a hallway behind the pantry? (I might consider a closet depth pantry that opened toward the hall to put a baking center on the kitchen side)

Other than the possible door interference problem Bmore pointed out, I like the location of the fridge and would put the microwave in the bottom shelf of an upper cabinet between it and the stove. It looks like you might have room to shift things down so that the fridge opens into the aisle in front of the ovens, which I think would be great.

I would also shift the prep sink down to the corner by the fridge, so it's also useful to the baking area I was talking about...and handy for the microwave, washing hands for kids coming through the side of the kitchen, etc.

Now I've taken so long drawing what I mean, that maybe others have jumped in ahead with better ideas! But here are mine (just rough starts):
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laxsupermom
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Here's another try. Prep sink and frig are both accessible to both the cook and the baker. Pantry is a bit far from the baking area, but I'm assuming flour, etc will be kept in the baking center. Banquettes are a love 'em or hate 'em proposition, but with a family of 4 this could work.
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cathyincali
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I am so thankful for all the nifty ideas.

laxsupermom-seeing the layout on graph paper really helps to visually quantify how much space we have to work with, and thanks for your many suggestions.

rhome410-I was hoping you might also make some recommendations. Thanks for the many ideas. I'll share all this info with DH so we can make some changes.

I am quite impressed at how quickly you all create &/or modify drawings. It took me 2 days to draw that first layout. So, I was quite thankful that the instructions on posting pictures worked so well, and it was the shortest step in the process! :-)

Thank again.
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bmorepanic
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
{{gwi:1984969}}
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sunnyd_2008
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I like original layout with sink and range locations
but I like bemorepanics island idea with bar sink
You have more usable counter space.
If you have a separate dining room area the island with seating works great.
wall ovens might make more sense down by your original baking area, put your undercounter ref and bar sink on island
Butlers pantry/coffee bar near dining room
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cathyincali
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
bmore- thank you so much for the layout and many suggestions!

sunnyd- thank you also for the additional ideas.

We very much appreciate all the help. I just printed out everyone's suggestions so we can start making changes to our plans! Thanks again.
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laxsupermom
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I like how bmore put the cleanup sink & dws on the 7' wall. Super convenient to the dining room and to the island eating. I also like that she used frig & freezer towers vs the s x s. Rhome's idea of pushing the table into the family room a little works great, because it can become a dual purpose table for game night(cards, board games.) Looks like you have a great start.
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bmorepanic
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Last one with one of laxsupermom's suggestions.
{{gwi:1984970}}
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cathyincali
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks everyone for the great ideas.

DD gets her wisdom teeth extracted tomorrow, so it's unclear how much time I'll have over the next few days to play with the layout. We sure do appreciate all the suggestions!
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Kitchen Layout help

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