Seeking layout help for kitchen remodel/expansion

12 years ago

It looks like we are finally ready to move ahead on a kitchen renovation. We�ve lived in our 1912 Foursquare colonial revival style home with its kitchen that straddles the 1960s and 70s for 12 years and it�s finally time. We have new and newish appliances which we are happy with (Bosch dishwasher, KitchenAid counter depth side-by-side refrigerator, and brand new 36" 4-burner + grill Capital Cullinarian � yes I�m thrilled with it), but we don�t like the current layout and will be expanding the back of the kitchen to add more space and layout flexibility, and replacing the current deck with a covered back porch.

My DH has very good design sense and has done a lot of excellent home remodeling/repair with which we are happy. He has come up with a draft plan for the project including the new layout for the kitchen. We will be working with an architect for the overall project, but not a kitchen designer.

We don�t have kids. My DH does only basic cooking, while I like to cook and bake. Thus we will both use the kitchen, but I will use it more intensively and for longer periods of time. We share the kitchen for relatively brief periods of time, before, during and after meals. I do large batch cooking on weekends, and then we microwave defrost and reheat for meals during the week. We have auxiliary storage space (shelves, freezer, refrigerator) in the basement, and a set of cabinets in the laundry room as well. We use mostly fresh ingredients, some frozen, some canned, including home canned and frozen items from my garden and local in-season produce. I shop infrequently except for produce which I get at the farmer�s market near my office.

I�m not the greatest on design sense, and reading all the info on this site on design begins to make my head hurt! There is so much to consider. I have read the FAQ�s and Read Me (thank you Bueh, starpooh, celticmoon, Sweeby, and other contributors), as well as Don Silver�s book on Kitchen Design with Cooking in mind. I am more function over form and want a cheery, old fashioned vibe to my kitchen (but not 60�s/70�s old fashioned ).

I�m including 1) the overall first floor plan with elements of the current kitchen layout, 2) the basic outline of the floorplan of the new kitchen with the new back porch drawn to scale, and 3) the draft layout for the new kitchen (backporch not to scale).

We have a small microwave and a Cusinart toaster oven we use frequently now, but I�m thinking of replacing them with a microwave/convection oven or speed oven and regular toaster.

When we have people over for dinner, we eat in the dining room, but I spend a lot of time in the kitchen and usually there are friends/family there while I cook. Right now we have a high narrow table in the center of the kitchen and for most meals the two of us eat on backless stools. We want to add a regular table with chairs or banquette for 4 diners in the kitchen in the additional space. I�m undecided about keeping the narrow table in the center of the kitchen. Right now it�s essential counter space, but may no longer be necessary. If we keep it, I would probably put it on casters.

DH wants to keep the day-to day dishes in the cabinets next to the hallway leading to the dining room. I think that would then be the best place to put the microwave (or whatever appliance I decide on). I had thought of that space for a baking center (30 year-old well-used Kitchen Aid), but perhaps that could fit to the right of the stove in the new layout. I thought I wanted a marble or granite slab for the baking center, but not sure having one next to the stove makes sense, if the point is to have a cooler surface to roll out dough.

I have a big cookbook collection. Right now it�s overflowing in bookshelves in the dining room, but if I have extra space, I might move some into the kitchen into a cupboard in front of the chimney. We currently store dry goods in the closet next to the hallway (marked on plan), and in 2 overhead cupboards, one in the laundry room and one in the kitchen (where the stove hood will be) with overflow and seldom used items in the basement. The amount of space for that is adequate, although I want to improve my spice storage space (looking at the other threads on that). I would like more storage space for pots, pans and other cooking utensils as a lot are stacked more than I want or are in locations where I have to use a step stool to reach. We use the current unheated pantry (former ice room) for vases, platters, casserole dishes, etc. The vases can go to the basement, but I need to decide where I will store the other items that will be displaced.

The door on the bottom right side of the layout (southeast) leads to the basement. On the bottom left side of the layout (southwest), there are 3 steps leading up and out of the kitchen to a landing in the front foyer. The closet over the steps is a small broom closet. Its location works better than you would think. One of things I love about my current kitchen is the quirkiness of having 7 doors (count them!). I�m odd, I know. I�ll be giving up one of them in the remodel, two if you count the removing the door on the that closet by the basement stairs that we plan to convert to more of a cabinet in style with pull out pantry units on top and pull out shelves or drawers in the bottom.

Other details, water is available on both east and west side of kitchen, ceilings are 8�2". We haven�t decided yet whether to simply replace the doors on our current cabinets or replace the cabinets. The current cabinets are topped by a We live in an area I call urban suburban and the view out of the kitchen window is about 10 feet to my neighbor�s house. The back yard is relatively deep and is where I garden, hence the desire for a window looking out from the new dining area.

Just found out that my DH didn�t allow extra width for vent hood over range, so we will have to adjust the plan for that. Also, I want to have 30" deep counter tops, as I like to have mixer, food processor, vita mix out on the counters. We�ll pull the cabinets out to get the extra depth.

I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions. Thank you

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Comments (7)

bmorepanic
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago

Little bit of commentary explaining some thoughts. And that's all these are. The number below are the numbers on the pic.

1. I'm guessing you wouldn't be talked outta those stairs, but that's an alternative - do a doorway in the living room into "closet" of laundry hall.

2. I did show this alternative - kill the inside basement stairs and move the ref to this wall. There's likely 101 reasons you wouldn't like this, but its a really GREAT place for the ref. I think I can hear your screams of "Nooo!" all the way in Baltimore.

3. Aisle widths. Aisles are measured counter to counter. Roughly a counter on a base cabinet on a wall is 25" to 26" deep. An island with one row of cabinetry is usually at least 29" wide at the counter level - this includes a panel on the backs of the cabinets and appropriate overhangs. If You use a tall bank of either shelving or closed cabinets that are 12" deep, your two aisles are about 39". The current recommended minimum aisle is 42" (It changed several years ago - I think partly on account of tall tub dishwashers and 36" wide refrigerators).

If you try to have full depth cabinets(25" at the counter) or even a counter depth refrigerator(~28" w/handles) on the opposite wall with the island, both your aisles go down to 31"-33". They might be less depending on "stuff" like how plumb the room is, the exact depth of the ref, etc. That can feel kinda small. You should be able to move something into your existing kitchen to lower the aisle space to try it.

4. Table space. Concerned about the choice of table, simultaneous use of the table and back door, etc. With a 2 foot wide table, with no one occupying the table, it will be 4.5 feet wide and the table edge should be 30" from the wall or 5.2ish feet. When occupied, the wall side has enough space for a seated person(24" beyond the table edge), but when someone sits on the door side, the total width is 6 feet - all the space there is.

Assuming that you guys or your friends may not be perfect about tucking in chairs, think about doing either a banquette or purchasing a dining bench for the side up against the wall. It helps with spacing, but might drive you nutz in alignment to the window and wall area. So if you put the bench under the window and run the table in the other direction?

5. Consider moving the range (sorry for calling it a rangetop) closer to the sink and island. I know somebody is thinking about prep between sink and range, but you're more likely to prep on end of island. It's less effort for getting pots full of water and dumping them.

6. Consider a fold-up or drop-in counter to be used only when you need some extra space instead of slightly blocking the stairs all the time.
ruthm
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks very much, Bmorepanic, for your suggestions. You gave us some things to think about. I�ll use your numbering scheme to give you our initial reactions.

1) Your instinct was right about the stairs, but we did sit back and discuss it. There is no entry point from the living room to the stairs. The west wall contains the pocket for the original leaded glass pocket doors � no way we�re giving those up you�ll understand � and the laundry hall closet doesn�t actually have any connecting walls to the basement stairs, only to the kitchen closet and the living room.

2) Your suggestion about relocating the door to the basement to the foyer would work, but because of the ascending stairs to the 2nd floor, the door would have to be angled at the top, or just very short. We don�t think we would like the look of either.

3) So we�re sticking with the basement stairs as is. The other option would be to give up the inside entrance altogether, but we use the basement for auxiliary storage, shelves, refrigerator, and freezer, so want a convenient entrance from the kitchen.

We weren�t thinking about a true island in the kitchen, just putting the current narrow table (25") on casters. Your idea of going with a true island and changing the current east wall cabinets to be just 12" deep shelves or closed cabinets is interesting. I�m thinking about that.

Given the basement stairs are staying as is, do you think the island is still feasible? The 12" shelves would have to be shorter lengthwise than your plan suggests to make room for the refrigerator. We currently have 35" and 33" aisles in our kitchen and that�s one of the things I hate. Guests tend to constantly be in my way. 42" would feel like an ocean of space, so I could probably easily go with 39", but I don�t want to keep what I have.

4) We were already thinking of a banquette. Not sure why my DH drew in all chairs. Putting the bench under the window makes sense, although the other orientation allows everyone to look out into the back yard.

5) You are right, I was thinking about keeping the cleaning zone separate from the prep zone. With an island, we could move the range closer to the sink.

6) Good suggestion.

I hadn�t noticed how quickly new posts are added to this forum. I don�t have much time to focus on this except for the weekend, but I�ll try to be more quick at getting back on the suggestions next time.

Thanks again, and we look forward to other comments and suggestions.

Ruth
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lazy_gardens
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Keep the powder room!
ruthm
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
We are keeping the powder room. My DH got lazy and didn't put it in the 2nd drawing. The door you see in the second drawing is actually the basement door, underneath the powder room. He redid the laundry/powder room about 5 years ago and we both like it very much, so it's not going way.
ruthm
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I was hoping for some more comments. Is there more information I should provide?

Bmorepanic - did you have any more thoughts about the island, given the door to the basement will stay where it is? See my question in my response #3.

I'm sorry about the upside down question marks. I wrote my responses in Word and then copied/pasted them in the message box, forgetting that the browser doesn't like that.

Thanks all.
rosie
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Posts disappear faster here than all the little yellow butterflies flitting by these days on their way to the Caribbean. :)

Ruthm, is there something special about that top right corner that you need the table there? Special view or sunshine? I was wondering about putting the door to the back garden all the way to the left and setting an L-shape counter across the top/outside wall and extending down the right wall. That would allow a good-sized island with seating if you wished, or a nice comfy table and chairs on the left wall, by windows perhaps, or even in the middle of the room--like the one in that great kitchen in the movie Moonstruck.
bmorepanic
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I'm sorry for not responding - I just didn't see your question.

Different people are different about stuff like aisle spacing, but I think it's gonna be tight at 32-33" because one side or the other will have people traveling back and forth. It would me me very afraid of commitment.

I would drag a table or sawhorses with a "lid" about 28" or 24" or 21" wide into the existing kitchen and try it out for a couple of days. If it didn't drive you crazy, then do it if you're happy with the rest. The size selections are because you could use 21" deep cabinets or 18" deep cabinets - those are in the bath catalogs.

If it does drive you nuts, well - that's an answer too.

With a lot of trepidation - cause I don't know enough about the house:

Seeking layout help for kitchen remodel/expansion

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