The lower right alcove area - can you put your banquette/table sitting area there - with benches around the alcove and table in the middle and then a chair at the end?

Ditto what blfenton said. I think you'd have a much more functional kitchen if you let the top left part be the kitchen instead of trying to make it do double duty.

Agree, the dining area seems to make more sense in the alcove and would give you presumably the option to switch from banquettes to separate chairs should you choose. This alcove location also allows for easy flow if you have occasion to have people seated in DR and kitchen table simultaneously. If you prefer the current top left location for its view, then it seems a bit tight and too close to operations. You might shift the island a bit toward the DR opening to give you more room for the original banquette arrangement.

No reason why you couldn't have the DW next to the original if you feel you need two, though one for a family of five or six is usually enough.

I'd locate the ovens on the wall w/RF and not as shown in the DR entrance. Without elevations, we can't tell what you're planning, but you have plenty of room for the 4' RF, counter with Uppers and lowers, then double ovens. MWs are easy enough to put anywhere depending whether you want you children to be able to use or not. They will not always be this young so plan ahead.

Agree with the others about moving the banquette, it's the most obvious place for seating, and you can build in or use furniture.

The rest of the layout has some space issues: 30" to clear a corner to get to your work area isn't enough, 36" would be minimum, yet you had ample space with 6 feet of aisle everywhere.

You may want to look at using the 17'-6 length as the long run of cabinetry/workspace with a large island in front. You have enough room to do a lot effective planning and make a really great kitchen.

Thanks all, I should've discussed that because it's definitely the most likely place for seating (that's where it is now). The problem is there is zero light there and basically no way to get it there, so it just ends up being depressing. There is a portion of the kitchen that has no other structure above it (the left side in the picture), so it's possible that if we did something major like a "skyroof" we could get enough light to it. But barring that I'm afraid putting it there would just make us sad. The top left location will have the best light, and we may even open up that wall a bit and put a corner window.

The ceilings are about 9", though we think there might be another foot up there potentially (since the rest of the floor has 10'10").

Why is there no way to get light to the current banquette area (bottom right)? Have you talked to an electrician? Years ago a friend thought she couldn't add more lighting because she lived in a building with concrete walls, floor and ceiling. Then she talked to an electrician. Turned out he had a solution and she got light where she needed it.

As others have said, keeping your banquette in its current location makes the most sense for the space. Your plan is not very functional. You will be in good shape because of all the laps you'll be doing in your kitchen as you prepare a meal but that's generally not a plus when it comes to kitchens.

I'm talking about natural light. There's no way to get natural light there. It's also "tight" - it feels like you're in a little cove because there are walls on three sides. It's possible that when we open up some other walls (the current kitchen has a full wall and a half wall in it it), it would get better.

Can someone elaborate on why we would be doing laps? I get that we have to shuttle from fridge to stove, but not sure which operations would cause the laps. I think abundantblessings was saying to put the ovens across the window from the fridge, which we could definitely do. We were just a little concerned it would block window light from the kitchen. We could probably back off the cabinet from the window enough on that side, but the fridge is going to be right up against the window (maybe 2 inches to spare) on the other side, so was afraid the lack of symmetry would make it look bad.

Couple other points - the 17'6" wall is to the outside. We're going to have a patio straight off the kitchen and we want it to feel like a part of the kitchen, so we want that opening to be large. Regardless, there will be a door there of some sort, so we don't get the full span to make that the main area. Also, we're trying to preserve that corridor from the front of the house through to the back relatively open (that's why the island is pushed up).

I fully realize you can't have everything, and that the balance one strikes is partly personal and partly functional. I think we can probably solve the 30" problem by moving the island a bit or making it a tad smaller (opinions about minimum island sizes when they are not seating but have a cooktop?).

Also agree that we should have enough space. It feels so odd to be struggling to fit everything in 300+ sq ft. Bigger than any kitchen we've had before.

circa 1960. It has avocado green metal cabinets and matching appliances. It even has one of those things that you hand crank your sheets through (I feel like somebody would want these, it's just unfortunately not us).

Here's one idea for you. I drew this up before realizing where your kitchen fit in with your house - where the DR was, the front entry, etc - but I think it would still work.

This is not drawn to scale - there were too many places I had to guess on dimensions. For instance, how far in from the corner is the window on that bottom wall? How wide is it? Dunno. However, the measurements I noted on the plan should be fairly accurate since they are based on the measurements on your plan.

{{gwi:1936190}}

I took advantage of that funky space where your current banquette is and turned it into a walk-in pantry. With a family of 5, you can use this, especially as they grow and become bottomless-pit teens. You can use the pantry to store small appliances, etc - it doesn't have to be used only for food.

Not sure if the sink is centered under the window or if that's important to you. I gave you a 24" cab between DW and ovens so that you have enough room to set down hot dishes from the oven without dirty dishes getting in the way. Not sure which way a side-opening oven opens but hopefully it opens to its right since the counter is on the left.

I gave you better aisle widths for working and moving through your kitchen. Your plan is much too tight in too many places. You'd have traffic jams all the time, which is silly because you have a decent sized space.

The island is now 110" x 42", which gives you 37" on each side of your cook top (if you center it, that is) and 18" behind it. NKBA guidelines suggest at least 13" behind a cook top (they don't mention seating) so you've got 5" more than minimum. You might be able to make the island 3" wider (from 42" to 45") but I could not judge the distance between table and island so I kept it slightly smaller. I think you'll have 40" between island and table, quite possibly more but it's too hard to tell. NKBA suggests 44" for space between table and other structures (wall, counter, etc) to allow for people to pass behind diners.

The MW is part of a snack center near the table. Don't know how you use your MW. If it's used during meals, this won't work but you could go with a MW drawer in the island or in the perimeter instead.

What I didn't realize when I drew this up is that the doorway to the right goes to the foyer, which means traffic may route through the cooking zone, not around it. Can the walk-in closet be made smaller or reconfigured so that the door into the kitchen can be moved north along that wall? I don't know what you store in this closet but perhaps some of those items can move into the large pantry so you won't lose storage by reducing this closet.

As for explaining laps - think about preparing a meal: get veggies from the fridge, walk across the kitchen to rinse them, prep in tiny space around the sink or next to the cook top. You've got acres of counter but nowhere near your sink and cook top. If you use the counter along the bottom wall as a baking center - and you need a tsp of water - you'll have to walk across the kitchen to your sink.

btw, your banquette will only seat 3. The banquette I drew will seat 6. Additionally, you only allowed for 16" between table and island. That's suck your gut in and turn sideways to get through. I foresee lots of bruises from banging your hips against table or counter.

This is kind of what I meant.

{{gwi:1936191}}

I took the wall back to where it thickened, assuming there is duct-work or other stuff in the wall there. This may only gain a foot or so - too hard to judge distances - but that, along with changing the door swing, may be enough to direct traffic around the kitchen work zone. If the wall can be reduced even more - there's nothing in the wall or it can be moved without incurring large costs - all the better.

I like Lisa's plan if you keep the banquette in the proposed area. The walk-in pantry will be great. The banquette area is expanded though I still prefer table and chairs for comfort.The shifted and enlarged island is great. Lisa's plan is much improved over the original.

Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding your concern about blocking light, and I may not have been clear, but I was suggesting putting the ovens on the same wall with the RF with the window in between. I'm not sure how light would be affected more than what you planned. I thought the 4' RF could be where you showed it on the outside wall, window, uppers & lowers then ovens.

I think before I installed a new window in the proposed dining area, I'd find out how much to install a header and window in the existing nook. Once the current pantry is removed that space won't be nearly as dark and confining, even without the proposed window. If you go with a version of this plan, then you could have swing out pantry systems on the wall where you had planned the ovens.

Would you consider opening the walls to the DR and making that your family room? Your DR could be then be located in the front sitting room. I'd like the flow better and the privacy for family times away from the foyer.

djMax, please provide the dimensions for the letters in this drawing:

{{gwi:1936192}}

Thanks!

{{gwi:1936193}}

This plan protects the cook top from thru traffic and keeps the aisle way through the kitchen MOL clear from foyer to mudroom. You don't get as much work space around the cook top - 18" to its left, 28" to its right - but it's a good triangle between fridge, sink and cook top. The ovens remain on the bottom wall. As I noted, this section can be a baking center, snack center, beverage center ... your choice. You've plenty of counter, you can always add a prep sink here, especially good idea if you choose to make this a beverage center (think coffee station).

The pantry is accessed via a pocket door.

I've no idea how wide a doorway to your mudroom you want but this plan still gives you a 6' doorway, which is quite generous.

dining/sitting/living rm/library: all are separate rooms...do you think of opening up your plan somewhere as abundant alluded to. Anything seem awkward or underused space? The kitchen doesn't flow into any more general space: is that an issue...or do you like it separated from the other areas.Reversing the dining with sitting and then opening the kitchen to sitting is an easy place to think about this. But the library is really a nook of liv room...does that work for you?

The amount of useful information here - amazing. lisa_a, thank you so much for taking the time. I now know a couple things:

1) The original plan is not workable because of several things, but the main one for me is the aisle width.
2) There is such a thing as the NKBA and they have standards (super useful).

Honestly, lisa_a, your designs are the best I've seen yet. I hope the original designers don't read this. In their defense, there are lots of elements on yours (the pantry, the overhang fridge) that they had suggested in one form or another, but IMHO not in a cohesive way that still preserved a relatively open kitchen.

The first one I wonder if it had enough cabinet space. I know the pantry has a bunch, but we obviously wouldn't want main dishes and glasses there, for example. The second feels a bit closed off, but haven't internalized it fully yet.

From your and others comments I think I have a renewed interest in putting the banquette/seating back where it was, and exploring whether I could get a floor-to-ceiling window in that small space (43" wide supposedly; though I doubt I can get all of it for a window). The removal of the pantry wall may really fix the main space problem with that area, and if we can fix the light part too then we perhaps end up with a much more functional yet open kitchen plan.

While I don't think we want to lose the formal dining room or move it to the sitting room, I do think we will open up that doorway to make it more connected.

The overall backdrop is that we close on this house this week, so we're not really in it yet. The kitchen is so unusable now that we want to demo it right away (we also don't want the kids or the furnishings to be around for the 50 year dust portion of that, so we felt we should do it right away). But a bunch of decisions, like linking the existing DR, are probably better made after at least a couple weeks in the space.

Dimensions:
A - 52 7/8
B - 58 1/8
C - 49 3/4
D, E, F unfortunately are unknown at the moment because the plans don't show the existing mudroom dimensions. I'll know later this week
G - 51 1/2
H - 58 1/4
I - 53 3/4
J - 43 13/16 - this is the one with a small window in the top left corner at the moment (23 1/4 x 41 1/2) - odd
K - 73 1/8
L - 38 with 5/8 after the door
M - 28 1/4
N - 41 3/8 - we were thinking of expanding this anywhere between 20-40 more - maybe retaining the side nearest the foyer for cabinet but taking the side nearest the back wall all the way back to the corner
O - 23 7/8

Thanks, I'm glad I could help. Thanks for supplying the measurements, too.

It sounds as though you're pretty new to kitchen design & remodeling so I think you'll find the information in the "New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me!" thread useful. There is quite a bit of information along with links to more information. One of the links leads you to the Finished Kitchens Blog (eye candy but also great ideas), other links lead you to articles about kitchen design. It would also be a good idea for you to pick up some kitchen design books. One you should consider is a new book called "Kelly's Kitchen Sync" written by Kelly Morisseau, CMKBD and blogger at Kitchen Sync.

Back to your kitchen and concerns.

I think you'll be surprised how much more light and open the space will feel once you take down walls. I'm sure the pantry wall blocks light from the window on the north wall (not true north, just top side of your plan) from reaching the existing nook area. Taking that down will help a lot.

As for enlarging the window in the nook, I'm not sure how much more window you can put in that nook wall. If it's centered, you have about 10" on either side of the window. You might gain an inch or two or maybe 3 but that might be it because you can't remove the structural support at the corners (at least not without greatly increasing costs). And if you're doing a banquette in that space, forget a floor to ceiling window because a bench will cover part of it.

There are other ways to add light to a space. You could add transom windows high in the wall between nook and LR, between nook and stairway, or above any or all of the doors. You could open up the wall between stairway and nook. You may not gain much light but the openness may help the space feel light. You could also eliminate one or more of the doors into the space and widen the entrances. Or, if you want to keep some of the doors (which I understand), replace solid doors with glass doors so that even when closed, they allow light to travel through the home.

I think you wrote that there aren't rooms above this space. If so, you could also consider installing a Solatube or comparable product, which requires less structural work and is less expensive than a skylight (what you called a skyroof).

You can also keep a bright feel by sticking with light colors in floor, walls, cabinets, counters.

How old is this home? You wrote the kitchen is circa '60s but is the home of that decade, too? Its formal lay-out makes me think the home was built before the '60s. Old homes contain surprises. Did any of the designers you've consulted have structural expertise? In other words, were they able to tell you which walls were bearing and non-bearing and what might be hiding (duct work, plumbing, etc) inside the walls? These things will play a big part in costs and what changes you can make. If the designers weren't able to provide this type of information to you, I think it would be a good idea to consult a structural engineer or an architect before moving forward with your plans.

How is the current range vented? Or is it? Island venting is more expensive so keep that in mind as you consider plans. If there aren't rooms above the kitchen, then venting should be easy - straight up and through the roof. But if that's not the case, you'll need to find out how and if you can vent an island cook top, and at what cost.

Oh, you voiced concern about whether the first plan I proposed had enough storage. I think you are focusing on upper cabinets only but drawers provide great storage and yes, they can store dishes. And glasses, too. I tried to imbed an image but I can't make the code work so you'll have to cut and paste this link, http://www.kitchendesigncenters.net to see what I mean.

Kitchens without a lot of uppers will feel more open. As long as you include ample base storage - drawers - in appropriate locations (dish drawers near DW, pots and pans in drawers near cook top, etc.), you'll be fine.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Sync (link to book in right hand column)

Thanks, we'll get reading - and you're right I'm very new to this. In the past we've had pretty clear ideas and then had someone help codify them, on this one for a variety of reasons we're unsure. The other problem is that the kitchen is the key to the rest of the house from a plumbing and electrical perspective - unless we open it up we're going to have a hard time getting up and down for ductwork and other stuff. So while one might suggest we live in the place for a while, that might hold everything off. Which just might be the right answer.

If you look on the full floor plan you'll see the kitchen bumps out from a "normal rectangle." That bump out has nothing above it (flat rubber roof). So we were thinking of trying to make as much of that section glass as possible. (I'm tempted to try and make it a walkable glass deck/ceiling, because we're crazy like that. But the snow might make that impossible.

The house was built in 1869, and is a Tudor style overall. There are very likely surprises waiting for us. The walls are 2 feet thick, we don't know if that's all stone or some substructure that will make it easier to break through.

2' thick walls! Wow! I started working on another idea before I saw that, which might mean that my idea won't work since the north wall set-up hinges on moving and enlarging the window. Actually, not completely. You have 1-3/4" to spare between fridge and window. It's a squeaker but it could work. It's an old house, it's allowed to have idiosyncrasies. But since this is an addition, maybe those thick walls aren't stone? Fingers crossed, that would make moving windows much easier to do.

Anyhoo, here's my latest idea for you (as before, not drawn to scale but measurements should be accurate):

{{gwi:1936194}}

This gives you a dedicated cooking zone, a dedicated clean-up zone and a dedicated baking zone with ample space to work in each, plus an island large enough for 3 stools (need 24" width for each person). You didn't ask for island seating so this can go and you can replace the stools with 18" deep cabinets. But it might be nice to have a place where you and your kids could do cooking and baking projects together.

The fridge is accessible to DR and banquette without anyone having to cross the cooking zone. Tucked into the corner like it is also will minimize (IMO, that is) its large size. It won't be visible from the DR either, which is generally viewed as a good thing.

btw, I'm assuming the fridge is a built-in so placing it next to a wall won't affect door swing (non-built-in fridges would require 12-14" between fridge and wall in order to fully open fridge doors).

I estimated the clearance between island corner and DR doorway as best I could. Until you draw this up to scale, take the 42" clearance with a grain of salt.

I modified the left wall and the back wall in the banquette area to give this area symmetry. You should be able to get 6 people at this table (we seat 6 at our 42" by 60" oval table). This might eliminate the window but I think there are other ways to add light to this space so I gave priority to making this space functional and good-looking.

I moved the DR entry and lengthened the right wall to have room to put the ovens there plus a few extra inches for molding and safety. I wanted to put a pantry cabinet next to it but then you'd have no place to set hot dishes down - the island is too far away for that. Putting the ovens here makes it easy to get hot dishes to the DR table or the banquette table. btw, double check depths of the appliances you are considering. Kelly at Kitchen Sync just blogged about how some appliances - ovens, included - are getting deeper requiring modification of a standard 24" deep cabinet in order to fit.

What you don't get with this plan is a walk-in pantry. You could convert the 44" of cabinet next to the DW into a pantry cabinet with roll-outs. It eliminates the symmetry on that wall but IMO, worth it because your family of 5 needs pantry storage.

This plan also keeps the straight shot from foyer to mudroom that you asked for. Most likely I did reduce the width of the opening - but that's a guess on my part. If you must have it wider, then scoot the cook top northward, shrinking the 20" cabinet to 18" or 15". Or even 6" (spice cabinet pull-out). I worry that it might look out of proportion - huge opening, tiny work space. Keep this in mind as you consider your plans for your kitchen.

Can you vault your kitchen's ceiling at all? If you can, then you may find inspiration from the kitchens of segbrown, firsthouse_mp and histokitchen. Here are links (you'll have to copy and paste the link to firsthouse_mp's kitchen) to their kitchens:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0614293210436.html

Ack, can't find the link to histokitch's kitchen. Can't even find a link to the reveal thread. Maybe someone else can help. That kitchen's ceiling are more modest in height but histokitch cleverly added slanted skylights.

Here is a link that might be useful: Segbrown's finished kitchen

Just for grins, I'm posting a photo from segbrown's kitchen with the windows up high in the wall:

You keep necessary storage but gain light.

solar tube?

I just re-read your posts and saw that you want to open the wall to the mudroom to allow light in. You can do that without opening up that whole wall. Install windows on each side of the cook top like this:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco interior designer Home Systems , Wendi Zampino

One window will likely look out into the mudroom, the other will open to the outside. But both let in light without you having to give up base cabinetry and counter space. I modified the last plan to show this.

{{gwi:1936197}}

The cabinet to the left of the prep sink could be open shelves, which will continue the open feel of that corner. You are giving up upper storage but you have lots of base storage so I think you'll be okay.

And if adding windows like this helps you get the light you crave, then you can shrink the opening a bit, gaining more space around your cook top and more storage to make up for the loss of upper cabinets.

btw, what's in your mudroom? Your drawings show a washer and dryer. Opening the walls will put those on view. How do you plan to address this?

Given your home's age and structure, I think it would be a very good idea for you to consult an architect, preferably one who has experience dealing with old homes. Keep in mind that not all architects are experienced with kitchen design - that is its own specialty - so once you get the structural details worked out, find a kitchen designer to help you with the rest. You already know how ugly an inappropriate kitchen remodel can be. Your home deserves a kitchen that fits it; you deserve a kitchen that suits your needs.

Another thing to bear in mind with this remodel. Kitchens today require a great deal more power than kitchens of yesterday, including 50 year old kitchens. Don't assume that the appliances you've chosen will work without, potentially significant, electrical upgrades.

Is that a question for me (what is a solar tube?) or a suggestion (have you thought about adding a solar tube?). I already made that suggestion, that's why I'm confused.

Figure all this hard work merits pictures of the place before we start on it:

Before Pics

And what we were thinking about for the roof:

Roof Lanterns

To answer your other questions - we have an architect involved, and she submitted some kitchen designs that helps start the conversation, but you're right that kitchen design is a specialty, as evidenced by this entire thread which has outpaced months of thinking and trying. (we've had 2 architects and a cabinet maker do designs).

We are upgrading the electrical service from 100A to 400A (I'm a little skeptical about the need for 400, thoughts?)

The laundry will be relocated to the bedroom floor and the mudroom will be mostly glass with one side for hooks and a bench seat. (The bedroom floor is a whole different can of worms which will have it's own post. :) )

Lisa- Once again, beautiful plan! I really like the banquette :)

Can't wait to do the final walkthrough tomorrow and figure a bunch of this stuff out. Every time Lisa makes a new plan it opens up a bunch more options in my mind. I think clearly the last plan where the banquette is released to its most obvious home opens the rest of the space up.

We haven't fully decided on a style for the cabinets yet - we're currently working with Crown Point in New Hampshire, but have also considered Pedini (probably because we don't know the price yet :) ) and their super sleek modern look, which doesn't seem to be Crown Point's thing. In either case, I do like the concept of a section of cabinetry which is floor to ceiling single vertical doors - I assume this is what you mean by a rollout pantry? The right wall (where the ovens are) was, as you point out, the natural place to do that.

I wonder if there are other oven options, such as:
*) In the island
*) next to the cooktop on the mudroom side

And/or if these options become more viable if the cooktop becomes a full range (we're thinking Capital Culinarian cooktop, and though I don't really want a gas oven, if it makes everything more functional we'd consider it)

Now I see why you moved the back window. Insha'Allah.

Wow, what a time warp! And yes, I think someone will definitely want your cabinets. '50s and '60s retro style is very in. Love the curved cabinet near the nook. And I love that the uppers are a different color than the lowers but I've always loved that look. However, these color combos are more to my liking:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by houston interior designer Carla Aston, Aston Design Studio

[

[eclectic kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by new york kitchen and bath 1 2 1 S T U D i O . C O M

But I digress, back to your kitchen....

Those roof lanterns are very cool! That will really help bring in the light. Between the vivid color scheme, wild patterns and multiple light-blocking walls, the space appears quite dark. Once you take down the walls, put in a calmer, lighter color palette, and install a roof lantern, your kitchen will become a bright, cheery spot. Yes, even the dreary 3-sided nook with one small window - no wonder you are reacting negatively to it - will be a wonderful spot to eat, drink coffee and chat with your family. Even if you aren't able to enlarge the window (or keep it).

Going with a range will help solve the issue of wall oven placement. You can do dual fuel (gas cook top, electric oven) although I'm not sure if the CC comes dual fuel. As for other locations for primary or auxiliary ovens, I'd keep it close to the core cooking zone. I placed them on the south wall at one point but then I realized that putting the ovens there would make for a loooong walk from ovens to DR table while holding piping hot dishes. I sure wouldn't want to do that - even with top-notch oven mitts.

Have you selected the appliances? If so, check their specs and see if they can be installed below a counter. Not all can be installed at that height (you might negate the warranty if you do). If, however, you can install them below a counter, then both the island and the cabinet to the left of the cook top are great places to locate ovens. You will, however, need to widen the cabinet to the left of the cook top to house an oven. The 24" denotes the counter span (oops, I see that dimension was deleted from the plan with windows on each side of the range). The cabinet below is 1.5" less (assuming 1.5" counter overhang). I know you're set on opening that mud room wall up as much as possible but if you do windows on each side of the cook top, plus the sky lantern, I don't think you'll regret shrinking the mudroom opening by 10" to 12" to get a kitchen that works well for you and your family for years to come.

Anyhoo, if you are able to move the ovens below counter, then yes, change the cabinet on the foyer wall to 6 feet of floor to ceiling pantry cabinets. If you're unable to change the DR entry, you can have the cabinets built slightly shallower to fit the space since their depth won't be dictated by an appliance.

Crown Point cabinetry is gorgeous but IIRC, all they do is inset. That means you give up some storage capacity. It also may mean that appliance cabinet sizes might be larger than I've spec'd. For instance, I was assuming a 30" oven could go in a 30" cabinet but that might not be true for inset cabinets (appliance choice also dictates the size of a cabinet). However, inset cabinets would definitely look at home in your kitchen. Oh, one more thing about inset cabinetry - you may want to consider deeper uppers (14") instead of standard depth uppers (12"). Since the door sits flush with the cabinet face, standard depth uppers are shallower inside than overlay cabinet uppers. A few people have discovered this the hard way. They went to put away a dinner plate and found out it didn't fit - the door hit the plate.

Can't help you with the electrical upgrade, sorry. That's beyond my knowledge level. That said, although it might be more than you need now, it never hurts to build in surplus.

Seems like the last plan's biggest problem is the window for the fridge... Cutting a bigger wall opening is one thing, but this needs to cut a bigger opening AND close up what's left behind. That may turn out to be prohibitive. Not sure where else the fridge would go in that case, other than perhaps a smaller fridge. Wonder if they make 46...

It might not be a deal breaker. You said that wall spans 49 3/4", that gives you 1 3/4" to spare. It might mean the fridge cabinet is smack up against the window - no molding - but it could work. You'd have to talk to your cabinet maker to find out if it's possible. If not, they do make 42" built-in fridges. You can always supplement with a beverage fridge or fridge drawers elsewhere. Beverage fridge could go to the left of the clean-up sink; fridge drawers could go in the island (depends on what you put in them, though). It's a more expensive appliance route but it may be less expensive than moving a window.

Speaking of windows, this thought occurred to me last night after I signed off. The sky lantern is a really cool idea but it hinders your lighting plan. It creates a large void where you can not install overhead lighting. That's fine for, say, your living room where table lamps supply much of the light at night but that's not the case with kitchens. Other than under-cabinet lighting, most of a kitchen's lighting comes from can and pendant lighting installed overhead. In your drive to get daylight into your kitchen, don't forget how you're going to light it at night. Could make cutting up onions rather dicey (ha!).

Anyhoo, your situation reminded me of the vaulted ceiling with windows in elizpiz' gorgeous kitchen:

day:

night:

You could do a peaked ceiling, as she's done or a flat ceiling, which will allow placement of canned lights.

You mentioned that the ceiling is currently 9' but might be 10'10. Have you investigated whether there is a false ceiling and you have more height to capture? If that's the case, another possibility for adding light are clerestory windows. Here are photos to show what I mean.

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by san francisco general contractor Bill Fry Construction - Wm. H. Fry Const. Co.

If you don't have additional height, you can still add clerestory windows, as shown in these photos:

[

[modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by chicago architect David Fleener Architects, Inc.

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[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

They won't interfere with cabinet or appliance placement - at least not as much as opening up walls - but they do let in light.

I'll redraw that last plan with the window in its current location so that you can see what that would look like.

Here is a link that might be useful: Elizpiz' finished kitchen

I'd move the fridge and the ovens. They could be swapped and the fridge wall then be all tall storage/pantry or keep the upper/lowers if you want more counter (but isolated counter spaces can become landing zones for clutter). I'd rather the fridge be in the traffic way than the ovens, and I'd rather the ovens be near the cooktop and work areas for times when you are using both. It gives you one big cooking area with cooking and baking subzones, good mixing, rolling and cooling areas for baking, and a food storage area (snacking traffic in my house LOL). No reason the fridge has to go inthe corner either -- move it away from the wall and make it more accessible from the banquette, remove a cornber opening issue too. Spending someone else's money here, but it would be a great use of fridge drawers for produce and other most used in cooking and prepping items (eggs, butter, condiments).

I'd also make the island a little longer. You've got lots of room there -- almost too much. If you want to soften the aisle space, round that end of the island.

I'd probably move the prep sink to the island and put fridge drawers and a trash pullout there too.

Instead of switching the ovens/fridge - put the ovens at the other end of the cabinet run that you have them drawn onto. Takes them out of the entrance/aisleway , and closer to the island for landing.

Lisa a - are your measurements counter to counter or cabinet to cabinet? Is the island to scale between the length and width? It looks a little lost in the space from the drawing.. I would try to make it a little longer -even to 82" or 7'. That would give room for a prep sink on the island or move the prep sink closer to the fridge. Most prep is done between the stove and sink and there is limited space in that area. maybe locate it at the other end of the window.
Boy this is a kitchen that could have 3 sinks and fridge drawers and all would be useful.

lisa- great job in making sense out of this huge space. Now for the finicky work.

Here's a drawing with the window back where it belongs:

{{gwi:1936205}}

I also played with the plan a bit more, shifting the cook top down so that there's room for an oven under the counter to its left. Shifted the prep sink down so that it's under the window and put a trash pull-out to its left. The blue sink shows an alternate location for the prep sink.

I changed the oven cab and counter on the foyer wall to pantry cabinets.

If you go with a range instead of a cook top and put a 2nd oven under the counter to its left, you don't have nearby storage for pots and pans. They could go in the Susan in the corner, not sure how that will work. I've never had a Susan so this is a question for someone else to answer.

Ignore my "oops" in the banquette area. I tried to come up with another version for this space, perhaps with a bench down the foyer side and chairs on the other (you'd have 39" between wall and table with a 42" wide table, tight but doable) but that angled wall was problematic for me so I gave up. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I didn't want to mess with it more.

Off to draw up lascatx's great ideas!

If you leave the prep sink on the perimeter still move it closer to the fridge. Speaking from experience there is not enough room in the corner with 18" on one side and 12" on the other for prep work.
A lazy susan needs 12" of space from each corner. But I wouldn't want the stove to be abutting that.
From the corner of the fridge/prep sink wall -

12"lazy susan, 36"pots/pans,cooking utensils drawer bank, prepsink 24" (?), 18" pull-out trash, fridge.

blfenton, my drawing is not to scale. That's impossible to do (I'm doing this in Paint). You can definitely see this in the way the bottom end of the island lines up with the entry to the mudroom. The island hangs out into the aisle more than 9" (the difference between 63" - aisle between island and sink cab - and 72" - aisle between sink wall counter and cook top counter).

Aisle measurements are counter to counter and most other measurements are top measurements. For instance, the 24" to the left of the cook top is counter, not cabinet. The cabinet would be 22-1/2" (assuming 1-1/2" overhang). These are estimates, btw. I'm sure there are quirks in the walls of this old house that will affect final cab dimensions. And a few of the measurements djMax supplied don't add up (more on that later in this post). Thanks for the compliment! Thanks for your compliment, too, LL (didn't see your post until now.)

Okay, here's lascatx's ideas drawn up (hopefully I understood her suggestions).

{{gwi:1936206}}

I put DR door and north wall window back where they currently are, just in case, the cost to move them is prohibitive and you opt not to do that, djMax. The only wall with changes to doors and windows is the left wall. You will likely uncover unexpected costs during this reno so I figured it would help to see how things might look if doors and windows had to stay put.

I moved the prep sink to the island at the end near the cook top. This way, someone can use it on either side of the island and it's handy to drain a boiling pot of pasta. It also leaves the other end of the island clear for staging items going to or coming from the DR.

I lengthened the island, angling the end so that there is still 42" clearance between island and wall. Adding 25" more inches provided enough room to add another seat at the island. Or you could go for more storage - your choice. If you opt for stools, you could give that counter a slight curve. There is an 18" overhang here (trying to max out island size as much as possible), which is more than the NKBA recommended minimum of 15" for leg room at a 36" high counter.

I left you a fairly large aisle between fridge and island since I thought that was one of your goals. However, this puts the island a bit farther than most prefer for a handy landing spot for items from the fridge. You could lengthen the island another 12" - would leave a 50" aisle - to address that. The island would still fall short of the current DR opening.

The pantry cab is 24" wide and slightly shallower than standard so that it clears the doorway and molding. (The fridge ends 1" from the corner of that wall.)

You have very generous prep areas in the cooking zone, however, this plan does place the fridge quite a distance from the cook top. I'd definitely follow lascatx's suggestion to add fridge drawers in the cook zone to store items most often used in cooking and baking to address this.

Oops, I forgot to mark the dimension for the counter to the right of the sink. It's 64". Plenty of room to add dish drawers or a 2nd DW and still have plenty of storage for dishes, glasses, silverware, etc. The sink btw, is centered on the window.

btw, the walls in the banquette don't need to be changed. The grayed areas showed the bench shape. This means that the window in the nook may not need to be altered, even if the window sill falls below the back of the bench. Obviously part of the window will be blocked but you'll save money by not having to alter this window.

Okay, now to deal with dimension issues. The measurements on your initial drawing and the ones you supplied later do not add up. The DR wall is listed as 7'6" or 90" but the numbers you gave for the walls on either side of the door and the door add up to 93-1/4". Same thing happens with the north and south walls and the entry wall (from the foyer). Measurements are off anywhere from about 2" to 7-1/2". I checked my math multiple times and got the same answers so somewhere, somehow the measurements you took or were given aren't correct. I went by the last set of numbers you gave. If these aren't accurate, then the measurements I list on the plans will also be off by a few inches.

I am going to disagree with switching the ovens and fridge. Put the fridge back and put the ovens where you now have the fridge drawn, at the bottom of the pantry run. (see my post of 13:24) You are taking the fridge out of the work triangle and it is used a whole lot more than your oven. I may not use my oven for 2-3 days - can't say the same for my fridge.

blfenton, I didn't draw up your suggestion because it's easy enough to imagine the ovens at the other end of the foyer wall, across from the island. At least it is for me. However, I'm willing to draw that up - with the longer island and a 42" fridge so the window isn't an issue - if it helps djMax, I just don't have the time to do that now.

djMax, lengthening the island and moving the ovens to the far end of the foyer wall means that you can use the island as a landing spot for hot dishes from the oven. I would definitely lengthen the island those extra 12" though, shrinking that aisle to 50". I will warn you that you will likely hear concerns about having oven landing across the aisle but it can work. Our ovens are in the aisle between kitchen table and DR and we use the island across from it (only 39" though) as landing for oven items (the counter next to the oven is laminate, the island has heat-proof porcelain tile). Anyhoo, if you're okay with having your oven landing zone across the aisle not next to your ovens, you can turn the rest of the cabinets on that wall to pantry cabs.

No, Lisa, no need to draw that up. You are already a superstar for doing all this, you've saved my kitchen, our renovation, and maybe our sanity too. :) I think if we're getting fridge/freezer drawers of some sort then a 42" might work, but also found out the Jenn-Aire side by side is 47, so that might actually be just enough to make it look ok. Also, here is the banquette wall in question, the fact that the window is in a corner makes me worry there's a reason:

So glad to have helped you. ;-) And here you thought your kitchen was challenging. ;-) Actually it is but extra eyes and feedback from the forum works wonders. You're going to have a fabulous kitchen! Please be sure to post reveal pics when it's done. I'm still waiting to do mine so I live vicariously through others' remodels.

Thanks for showing me how that window is placed in that wall. It won't affect the banquette bench at all since it's high enough up on that wall. I share your concern about why it's placed so far in the corner. Given that that wall is part of the original structure, you may not be able to move or enlarge the window without affecting structural strength.

Good news about the Jenn-Aire!

How did the walk-through go?

So I drew it up anyway, just for grins. ;-)

{{gwi:1936208}}

I double-checked measurements so these should be fairly close to reality. I allocated 49-3/4" to the fridge and cabinet. Yes, right to the edge of the window. ;-)

I also tweaked the look of the range wall so that it looks closer to how it will look IRL. That wall will look very nice with its large opening to the mudroom and windows on each side of the range, with roughly the same amount of counter on each side of the cook top: 24" to its left and 27.5" to its right. The only thing on that wall that will be above counter height will be the hood above the cook top. btw, putting the cook top on the perimeter will make venting it much easier and less expensive, which means you can free up money for more and/or larger windows and doorways.

The wall ovens come out almost across from the upper edge of the island so it will be a convenient spot to plop down hot dishes. If you'd rather have counter top next to the ovens, you can split the cabinet in half - 20" for cabs and counter and 20" for pantry cab. From DR doorway, 20" pantry cab, oven cab, then cabs with counter. btw, you might end up with 2-3 more inches here - it all depends on the oven cab. I allocated 33" for it but you may only need a 30" cabinet. This alternative, btw, leaves a bit more buffer between open oven door and a kid barreling around the corner, headed for the fridge (as my hubby would say, they'd only do that once. Next time they are smarter. ;-) ).

blfenton, I missed your earlier comments about the prep sink location. I'm not sure why you thought there were only 18" between cook top and corner. A Susan adds 12", plus the 20" cab (I hope I'm looking at the plan you were commenting on), that's 32", less 1.5" counter overhang, leaving 30.5" of counter to the right of the cook top. Yes, the prep sink was up against the Susan so there were only 12" or so to its left. I thought about scooting the prep sink farther down towards the fridge but then decided to leave it where it was so that it was a shorter distance to dump pots of boiling water. If the OP doesn't make a lot of pasta, this may not be a big deal. If it does move to the other end of the perimeter, I agree that putting an 18" trash pull-out between prep sink and fridge is a good idea. That way someone can be at the sink and not get smacked by an opening fridge door. Another alternative is to put an 18" trash pull-out next to the Susan, then prep sink. That would leave 28.5" to its left and 36" to its right. Tasks that need a large expanse of space can be done at the island.

djMax, I can't remember if I wrote this already or not but I made the banquette bench 24" deep so that you have enough room to cushion its back as well as its seat.

Oh, meant to add this suggestion sooner. If you want a wider opening to the mudroom but don't want to give up cab and counter space, you can do both. Have the cab to the left of the cook top extend into the opening like a peninsula. Just leave enough wall so that the hood doesn't look like it's teetering on the edge. (did someone already suggest that a good rule of thumb is to buy a hood 6" wider than your cook top or range?). This won't give you as balanced a look as the windows on each side of the range will. Not sure if that's a downside for you or not.

One other tip: drawers. Much better for storage convenience than base cabinets, even with pull-outs. Costs more but I've never seen anyone post that they regret going for drawers over doors.

Fridge placement may depend on your family and cooking needs. If you are a one person cook doing a large dinner, putting the cooktop at one end of a long island and the oven at the others would be a real pain. I can't imagine trying to deal with the folks who gather in my kitchen and chat while trying to finish Thanksgiving dinner with dishes on the stove adn in the oven and rushing back and forth between them. If you ever sear on the cooktop and then finish in the oven, then cook sides at the cooktop, you'll be running back and forth. If you have more than one cook, it might help or make matters worse, depending on the division of labor. If you bake a lot, you have a lot of workspace for mixing, kneading, rolling, cooling, etc. -- much better than the end of the island gives you a bit too far away.

Yes, the fridge is a bit far from the cooking area, but you can either learn to gather and prep -- dealing with that trek before things get hectic or need last minute attention, or include fridge drawers or an undercounter fridge. For me and the way our kitchen works, I'd definitely make the swap. If you favor the ovens stuck out there to the side, do you really use them enough to need double ovens? Just a thought.

On the island, I was actually thinking of making it rounded -- bullet shaped, on that end, but the angled works too. The slanted edge might be a good place for cook book shelves or something fun to make good use of the space.

You are at the point that you have good, workable ideas and a drastic improvement. Now you need to think about how you would live in the space and how the differences would make your work easier or more difficult and go with the ones that make life better for you. Most likely, none of us will ever cook in that kitchen, but you will. A lot, we hope. :-)

LOL, lascatx, "nOne" was supposed to be in that last sentence - "Most likely, nOne of us..." - but it was deleted. I never noticed this weird computer glitch was happening until trailrunner pointed it out. But we know how to outsmart the software demon - capitalize one letter in it and it stays. Cue the maniacal laugh, bwahahahahahaha!

lascatx makes a good point, djMax. This is YOUR kitchen. The last two plans are heads and tails better than what you started with and they fill your wish list, too. Now it's up to you to decide which of these will work best for you. How do you figure which works best and what changes you need to make to make it work better? Imagine preparing a meal. Go through the steps and consider how a plan would help or hinder the process. Think about what things you need to have at hand for each task. Do you practice mise en place (everything collected in advance - I do that) or do you grab as you go? Do you want cooking spices near the cook top and baking spices near the ovens or would you rather they were all stored in one central location? Where will you store hot pads and trivets? What about platters, baking pans, pots and pans, mixers, bread machine, and all your other kitchen gadgets? Go through this process several times - mentally prepare a holiday meal, too - and then tweak the plan as needed to make it suit your needs. You'll still need a pro to draw up plans - I'm assuming your architect can help with this - to show cabinet sizes, outlet locations, lighting lay-out, etc - but you'll have a working plan to start with and that's a big step forward.

(lascatx, I was thinking that angled spot in the island would be a great spot for cookbooks or a lovely display niche. Great minds. ;-) )

djMax, if you share lascatx's concerns about the distance between cook top and ovens, I thought of a solution that doesn't require moving the fridge: change your cook top to a range and leave the 2nd oven in the pantry cab. If this oven can be installed below a counter, you would also gain a handy landing spot near your oven, which means you won't have to cross the aisle to set hot things down nor will you have to give up pantry storage.

You'll loose the handy storage for pots and pans in drawers below the cook top but you could use the drawers to the left of the range, the Susan or drawers just around the corner on the fridge wall. Just keep them close at hand.

The drawers to the left aren't as wide as most GWers would recommend for this type of storage so check to see what interior width you will have and whether they will hold your pots and pans. If you can find other ways to let in light and would consider shrinking the mudroom opening, then you could enlarge that cabinet to fit the purpose.

lisa -- totally OT but do you not see the word "none"? It shows up on my screen just fine. Maybe the "none" vs "nOne" is a browser or computer specific issue, not GW.

I didn't suggest it earlier because I'm not sure I'd love it, but you do have room to put a fridge on the sink wall (I think I'd make that wall 30" deep, btw -- you have plenty of room for it, even if the island got a few inches wider). If your budget is accommodating a 48" built-in, then you could also look at columns and have a fridge in the main part of the kitchen and the freezer on the storage wall. Looking at 24-30" as well as 36" options in fridges and 18-24 inch freezers opens up some other possibilities. Your kitchen might be one of those where being able to separate them really makes a difference.

Yep, I can't see the word nOne in your last sentence in your previous post. But you see it. Go figure. I take comfort in knowing I'm not alone with this problem. There was another time when I had GW issues and they kept trying to blame my computer. Turned out it was something in GW's software - a change they made linked to ads - that did not mesh with my browser. They changed the ad software and the problem went away. I'll bet it's something along that line again.

Good idea about separating the fridge and freezer. I thought about that but didn't work on a plan with it that way. I've toyed with that idea for my own kitchen but like you, I'm not sure if I'd like it. Even if my budget could swing it.

So day 1 entailed ripping up 10 rooms of carpets and stripping wallpaper. I'm sure my lungs are very angry, even with a mask. The one piece of good kitchen news is that I think we can rescue 2-3 inches off the DR wall where the fridge would go, so that problem may not be as big as we thought. The pantry wall looks like it might be a bit of trouble, and the walls look really damn thick.

The electrical also needs a ton of work, so I think the overall issue is our kitchen budget is shrinking. Can't wait to break walls on that project though, so I will keep updating here. The plan challenge at the moment is that my wife and I like different versions of the plans on this thread. :)

So you closed! Yippee on the progress you've made making it your home. Good news on gaining those extra inches for the fridge. As for battling out for which plan is best, well, you're on your own for that one. ;-)

Spotted this photo while perusing through houzz and thought of the dual stairway between kitchen and foyer in your house. It probably won't be within your budget to do something like this but it doesn't hurt to look, right?

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[mediterranean staircase design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/mediterranean-staircase-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_745~s_2109) by atlanta general contractor Dresser Homes

Maybe there's a stash of cash hiding in the walls you're tearing down ... one can hope. The next best thing will be to figure out your priorities: what needs to be done now, what you want done now and what can be delayed until you have some breathing space in your budget. Good luck and thanks for keeping us posted (would love to see photos once the walls are down. I'll bet the space will look incredibly different).