I think your plan looks lovely, but I never saw plan B ;).

Off topic, but can you tell me about your french sliding door? Is that the standard size for a 4 panel or do they come smaller. How much does it run costwise? We are putting in sliders and I love how yours look! Thanks :)

Hi-I have been reading your posts as well and think your plan is progressing really nicely!!
The drawing shows four 2.5' wide panels so the total door opening will be ~ 5'.
I have seen the same set up in 2' wide panels as well at a "Loewen" showroom. We would have considered the 2' wide to gain a little more space on the hutches but we wanted a wider door opening to the patio.
Pella,Anderson,Jeld-Wen may offer these types of configurations. Waiting on price estimates. Anderson's 4 panel units range from $2-$3K but not sure they have the size we need.

Thanks ravmd! I would love to have the 8-10' opening. We would be sacraficing some wall space so its a toss up. Right now we have a 6 ft slider priced in. Our slider is the opening to a covered porch, so it would help bring in a little more light if it was wider. And the french opening feature is nice. Your kitchen will look amazing with the 10'! I probably would have chosen the bigger doors to. Nice to bring the outside in ;)

I'm still against separating the dw's because, yes, I believe you will end up with dishes all over the place and I think it was you who I told about my ban on leaving any dirty dishes around or in our prep sink. I think that would be harder to enforce if there was a dw right there. Regardless of my opinion, which might not apply the same in your house, you already have a range and fridge opening into that aisle, so it seems you might have to be careful about dw location so there isn't door interference issues. Also, I wouldn't want the dw opening into my work aisle to trip over.

I think it'll be your personal preference about covering the fridge doors or not. Looking at the elevation, I am not bothered by the amount of stainless vs the amount of white cabs, but if you will be, the panels would look nice, too.

I'm going to address one of your pantry questions and the toaster oven question together. We keep extra things in the pantry, but keep open boxes of cereal in an area easy for the kids to access, which also includes the toaster oven. We refer to this as the 'breakfast center,' which is just a 30" run of counter and cabinets near the fridge in which we keep milk, snack and lunch items...Cereal and peanut butter in the upper cab, TO on the counter, bread, napkins, etc. in the drawers below. Ours is right across the kitchen from the dish storage, so we don't keep dishes there, but there would be room for cereal bowls and small plates.

If you can't make a separate space for this, or don'nt want to use the wet bar area in that way, I think having the TO on the counter above the Adv. and keeping the cereal in the pantry would probably work fine, also.

Rhome-yes you have been helpful with the prep sink and 2nd DW advice. That's why I am wondering if we will regret having the 2nd one located where it is. Was considering DW drawers as a possibility there as well.
Would shifting the island DW down to the right help? But then I would probably want the prep sink near it and it seemed in a good location by the fridge and for others to access. I do hope they will use the wet bar sink for getting drinks or rinsing hands so maybe it won't matter if the prep sink shifts down? Seems like a lot of sinks on the right side then however???

For the range/fridge: maybe if we get color 3d drawings it will help decide on panels vs SS. I know my DH was disappointed when I mentioned my concern -just didn't seem like enough white cabs in that area to balance out the amount of SS. But I guess this amount of SS isn't uncommon for one wall?

I would LOVE a breakfast center and had hoped the wet bar would be the spot for that .That way it would get daily use , not just entertaining use. But then it got smaller due to the extra doors & the addition of the ice maker so we are only left with 2 useable drawers, but I suppose we could dedicate those drawers to the kids cereals, bowls and their cups rather than "bar stuff" .And put the toaster oven to the left of the window. I do like that idea a lot and makes nice use of that side of the kitchen. Just wonder if there is room there for a TO and coffee maker at the wet bar?

If the left hutch could be used for something more practical on a daily basis I would be open to using that as well, but it is the first thing anyone will see coming in the front entrance so didn't want it too cluttered with stuff.

Thanks for letting me 'think out loud'!!!

I understand what you're saying about stuff being tucked away in the pantry and yet you have so much sapce at the other end of the kitchen that almost feels like it won't be utilized. I do think 5' of counterspace is enough to put a TO and coffeemaker. If it was me, aside from cereal and breakfast foods, I would put kids snack stuff over there. You're already going to have a refrigerator, so they could just get a drink and snack without walking all the way to the pantry area.

Are you sure you're going to get 2 drawers under that bar sink? Just checking. Can't imagine they'd be full depth with the pipes and all. Have you looked into frig/freezer drawers that have an ice maker? Yes, they are overpriced for what they are, but would take up less space than the frig/ice maker you have planned. Do you really go through that much ice? Honestly, if it was me, with that mudroom right off that side, I'd buy a small upright frig/freezer and use that for drinks, ice and spillover from the main frig. It would be a lot less expensive, you'd get more space and then you'd pick up some cabinetry to make better use of that bar/snack area. I do think in order to make better use of all your space, you should get some of the items that will/may be used on a regular basis, out of the pantry and into the main part of the kitchen. Sometimes that's the problem with big kitchens, if it's close to 1 area, it's far from another.

I hope this helped!

Good catches, Malhgold! Has someone said how they plan to put drawers under a sink? Neither of my sinks has room for even one drawer under the plumbing.

What will the left bar counter be used for? There is a LOT going on in the right one, but nothing I can find for the left?

I like the suggestion of a full size fridge/freezer with ice in the mud room...It's so close and handy, and like Malhgold said, way more room for the money.

Did you/we ever consider swapping the fridge and the Advantium and warming drawer to have it (the fridge) over by the pantry? Does anyone think that would help with others accessing the fridge?

I like the prep sink's current location. I don't see a perfect spot for a dw on the island because of the fridge and oven doors, like I said. I do think if you did dw's on either side of the sink, the one on the right is pretty handy to the cooking area, as there's an uninterrupted path right to it from the range and prep area. I'm REALLY not trying to harp on this or push my opinion. I just don't see a good place on the island to have that additional door. Maybe since you'd be the one opening it to put things in, it's not as big a deal...But I get going and just want to throw things out of my way and deal with them later. When things are cooking, and I'm in the 'heat of battle' I don't always have time to stop and neatly load the dw.

Good points-
Malhgold,no idea if the wet bar sink/drawers will cause a problem.So far noone has said it will -maybe being on an outside wall helps? No idea but will look into it. Actually now I think I did have one kd store point out the top drawer will be fake but no comment on the bottom 2.
I do feel I need to get at least kids snacks/cereal somewhere other than the pantry so hopefully the wet bar will work.
We hadn't looked at any other bev ctrs. just the 3 zone one for soda, white wine and red. But good thought and the mudroom is certainly an option. Our spare fridge with ice dispenser was going to go in the laundry room but I think I would prefer to enlarge the mr and reduce the lr to make room for a frdige. We were thinking the ice maker would help with the kids getting beverages and eliminate the dripping water/dropped ice cube mess we currently have on our SS fridge!

Rhome: Yes the left counter hutch does not have a daily /practical purpose -I guess I would store tablecloths,extra serving bowls/platters etc in it. If it can be better incorporated into more than just a storage unit that would be fine. I suppose snacks could even go there. Cereal wouldn't be ideal as you would have to go across to get a bowl, back to get milk , etc.
Re. the fridge -we had considered it on the wall to the left of the sink (rather than the right) by the entrance to the mudroom.It really crowded space with the sink and shifted the sink down into an awkward spot (towards the pantry).Hadn't considered where the oven are but assume it will be tight-will take a look. We can't shift anything into the area where it transitions into the pantry area as it will be a slightly lower ceiling for duct work.
Will keep thinking about the DW's. On the 2 sides of the sink would work, but I would lose my lower cabs which I was hoping to put in drawers for dish storage for kids/family to access easily rather than in upper cabs.
maybe the end of the island right across from the sink could be dish storage.

I agree completely with rhome about the dws.

I might be convinced to work on the sink wall layout so the ovens and some breaksfast food/snack food storage were close to the drinks ref. That would also give you a second landing area for stuff coming out of the pantry.

I don't think the pantry will be an access issue.

I'll be the odd man out and like the 48" ref where the plan shows it. Completely integrated one from liebherr.

The mfg below is big bucks, but the people who have them love them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nana wall systems

"I'll be the odd man out and like the 48" ref where the plan shows it."

I actually fought to have it in that location before, but just wondered if we'd missed a possibility of keeping it with the other food storage. I wasn't sure if it'd be better or not, and I've already proven my brain isn't in good working order after my error for twogirlsbigtrouble!

So it seems that the bev frig you're planning is really just for soda and wine. I'm not sure that those appliances are really going to help you out that much if you're really looking for a breakfast/snack center. What if you moved the bar sink, bev frig and icemaker to the hutch on the left side. Then, if you put the spare frig in the mud room, you can use it for overflow, lunch stuff, cream, milk, yogurt, fruits, frozen food for kids....things that might be used for breakfast, lunches and snacks.(if you decide to move the oven stack w/advantium there, that would help too) Then....in lieu of a 48" built-in, you could downsize that frig(if you wanted) to a fully integrated top frig/bottom freezer. I know sub-zero has 27" models and Thermador has(I believe) 36" models. Anyway...thought is, that you can use that frig/freezer in your prep zone for all the stuff you need for cooking. Would also give you a little more room in the range area.

Anyway...this is what I was thinking on my way home from the grocery store to get cookies and cream ice cream for DS. If it was me, that's probably what I'd do.

Rhome you are correct - we did go back and forth with everyone here previously on the fridge location -deciding between to the right of the mudroom door/left of the sink , vs where it currently is. And we actually got consensus on moving it to the range wall (closer to breakfast room, family room , access to range etc.) after many of your posts pushing for it there. The brainstorming just brought that to the surface again. I have no problem with thoughts being raised even without all the answers. You guys are the best at just making us all think this through during the hard parts!

Malhgold-you definitely have me rethinking our mudroom space -it has room for cubbies and a closet. But the spare fridge there vs. the laundry room would be a lot better . Not sure if my DH will give up the 48" -that's the one thing he wants, but will see.

I guess it comes down to making the 2 hutches more functional really.
And finding food storage space other than the back pantry area. The left hutch is under utilized but it was thought since it was the first thing you see coming in the house that it should look nice (ie. no appliances) and could serve as a serving hutch or something for the breakfast room/screen porch. It would have made a nice spot as well for the wet bar (closer to breakfast room,family room, screened porch but it was thought that a sink,undercounter fridge etc. wasn't the best first impression coming in the door . Maybe it wouldn;t look so bad?

I guess that is the hard part at this point is making the best use of both of those hutches whether they are wet bar, breakfast ctr,snacks ,storage , etc. so that more of the kitchen is used on a daily basis.

bmore=glad you are chiming in. I know you preferred the other plan so any help in improving this one is really appreciated!!

I thought the advantium would be more convenient by the range vs. by in the wet bar/snack area. I do feel I use a MW now more for meal prep -than for kids snacks (other than popcorn).So it seems better placed on the cooking side of the kitchen.Maybe as the kids get older(they are 3,7,9) they will be looking to use it more for quick snacks/meals. So I guess either location could be beneficial.

The NanaWall system is awesome! I am not sure it would work in the kitchen as the folding part would require too much space (and maybe not convenient for kids in and out), but it is a possibility we considered along the wall between the breakfast room and screenporch.I think the Nanawall inspired us on the whole remodel actually to make the breakfast room and porch feel as one big room! The price for a 10' section was $8K. So when reality of the cost of the whole project sits in we will likely go with the french sliders in both sections! If we had a nice pool to walk out to like in all the photos of the NanaWall, we may splurge!

Like you, I use my microwave for preparing meals, rather than a snack warmer, so am in favor of keeping it near the stove. I think different people get in different habits with microwaves, and guess that you will likely keep using yours the way you're accustomed to now. The kids do use ours, of course, but I use it most, and for things that make its proximity to my rangetop more important. I need to be able to access it quickly, as I'm doing other dinner-making activities, and sure wouldn't want to chase over to those bar areas to do that.

I know nothing about such things...But do undercounter fridges and ice makers come so that you can put cabinet door panels on them? It seems that would solve the problem of having obvious appliances in the left bar. I don't think the sink would be unsightly from the entry. I do like the idea of using that area for linens and serveware, but it's not as important for that if it can contribute to the better use of the whole kitchen on a daily basis.

I just learned something about panel ready bev refs (3.5k) and panel ready icemakers (1.7k) - they are spendy!

I am the other kind of microwave user - mostly heating sandwiches and melting butter. I guess that's why I think of them as a small accessory.

Ravmd, I really like the plan you're presenting, but I'm having a little trouble following emotionally your feeling that all the space and cupboards in the kitchen room should be used on a daily basis, preferably as wet areas. This certainly a very individual thing, but since you asked for input, the three counters plus butler's pantry have tons of work and storage space, including two wet areas, and I personally would prefer to mostly confine the daily mess to those areas.

Nice as the hutch/garden door wall is as drawn (the outside looks great), I'd simplify the design by bringing the upper cabinets down to meet the lowers, which would frame the doors with built-in hutches rather than kitchen counters with uppers over. This would cut work space over there but in the process help control mess and add storage. It would bring the view down the hall into continuity with the living and dining areas and help make the view out those doors always pretty without continual fuss to keep it that way.

I guess I'm still confused if we made the left hutch a wet bar, then not sure what the right hutch will be used for. Snack storage I suppose.
didn't realize how pricey the panel ready appliances would be. We priced out a bev ref at ~$1200. The bev.drawers were$2000. But 3.5K??

Rosie-I am very happy with the way the plan worked out. The one thing we have not done is put a "label' on each cabinet/counter to see where we will store TO, coffee, dishes,bowls,etc. I am sure this kitchen will accomodate it all but was a little concerned of
1)the pantry storage -slightly tucked away. It actually will be perfect for everything-cooking,storage ,etc. I think the only thing I wouldn't mind storing somewhere else is breakfast stuff. So that is where these hutches
came into discussion.

2)The 2 DW's -obviously I want at least 1 DW near dish storage and preferably have the dishes stored base drawers. So I am not sure how i would use the island dw -it is in a very tempting spot to clear cereal bowls and cups into from the island but then the dish storage would be near the main sink. It was put there for cooking utensils,pots,etc. My DW fills up the most quickly now with glasses the kids use and cereal bowls so I am sure I will be tempted to use the extra DW for this stuff as well.

I can see what you mean about spreading out the mess - I think it is just the morning breakfast traffic I am trying to spread out at the moment. Maybe I am just a morning grump! I keep envisioning all 5 of us on the south side of the island and in the pantry and fridge getting breakfast, making lunches, etc. while we have the whole other side of the kitchen not being used. I am probably over thinking this -just want to get to my coffee easily in the morning.

Re. the hutch: I think the look of a built in with cabs to the counters would be great. The cabs are 15" wide on each side of the window. If they come to the counter, that leaves ~30" of counter in front of the window. Could we do this on the left hutch and NOT the right? I am trying to find a spot for the coffee maker and Toaster somewhere and the wet bar was the most likely place so didn't want to give up too much counter there. does it have to be symmetrical??

I did think the left hutch would be an ideal place to set out desserts when entertaining (which is not That often) so it's not a deal breaker. I guess you could still fit a lot on a 30" counter space?

I can see where Rosie is coming from about not having every available spot in the kitchen being "used" for kitchen prep, etc.

Opposite the tall pantries, it looks like there's more pantry storage. Is there counterspace there? Could you put the toaster oven there? You could leave the breakfast cereals there, people would have easy access to both the frig and dishes. I would think at breakfast time, there's not always conflict with someone cooking at the range, unless you're cooking gourmet breakfasts every morning! You could put your coffeemaker to the left of the clean up sink and keep your milk or cream for coffee in the beverage frig.

I do think that if you are doing the cabs to the counter, both hutch areas should look the same. Unless you are planning different cabs/finishes(more unfitted look) for each of the hutches, which I don't think you are. You already have the symmetrical windows there, so I think it all should match.

I like that area for the TO -forgot about it as it was originally a tall narrow pantry from floor to ceiling but thought it would feel too claustrophobic having all those tall pantries back there.So we changed the one side to a counter instead-hope to incorporate cell phone chargers in there .But the toaster would be nice and hidden! Thanks for that idea.

The cab look is much like 'redroze's recent photos: white perimeter/soapstone counter. Island and hutches in dark espresso/whiter counter tops(maybe Bianco Romano).So I had intended on the 2 hutches matching.

The reason we were trying to get more use out of those areas is because you expressed an interest in getting some activity out of the pantry and a place to set the TO that didn't bring more traffic to that corner. I think we were trying to get you sort of a kids' area close to a possible fridge in the mud room...So that right bar wouldn't be just snack storage, but a place for the kids to pour cereal, make toast, etc. I think you could do a couple different things within the pantry to situate the toaster oven and cereals, but you seemed to want those things close to milk, too.

I think it's acountryfarm who has her cleanup area through an arch with the kids'/bfast area tucked between it and the pantry, out of sight. That seems like a very cool idea. (Oops...Those are baking centers tucked away, but I could see them working great for bfast--I'll include the link, just because I brought it up.)

I do agree that it creates a new mess area to move those functions out to the bar areas. Our breakfast center counter is the spot our kids most frequently overlook during cleanup. DH would say it wasn't worth it because of that. I still think it is because of having a special place for those things so important to our daily lives that always had to fit in around everything else in other kitchens. So it's another one of those compromises that might be acceptable to one and not OK with another.

I really think this plan could be perfectly OK as posted up at the top of the thread, with the toaster oven on the counter above the Adv. It really will be a great kitchen, no matter where you plan to place all these tasks. I know it gets aggravating and confusing, but it's really good to take the time and explore all the options and consider all the ideas now, instead of having the 'maybe-we-should-have's later.

Not to throw a wrench into your hubby's fridge dreams, but if you're considering making room for more refrigeration in the mud room, you could consider something like we have, which is one Electrolux all-refrig and all-freezer set, then an extra all-refrigerator. Then, as Malhgold pointed out, you'd have more room and less stainless on your range wall.

Here is a link that might be useful: acountryfarm's kitchen

Rhome-thanks for the link. I had forgotten all about that gorgeous kitchen in progress. And seeing the floorplan does help picture things -especially her breakfast center and baking areas. Great ideas!
Yes it is the little things that I am nervous about that it would stink to build a kitchen and then say 'I wish we had a better spot for a TO'.

I will check out those fridge options as well.

The pantry area is one I want to explore more -as the 4 tall cabinets remind me a lot of what rmkitchen has and does not like at all. I can see it causing similar aggravation in our family and all four pullouts being opened to find something. I think I would prefer maybe just 2 wider pantry cabs with pull out shelves vs. 4 and add drawers at the bottom..

Thanks for all the options -it is all helping a lot!