The man sounds depressed and not in sync with a stubborn and controlling type. Sounds like he may be feeling he has outlived his life expectancy and usefullnes -- especially if the siblings have not rallied behind him. And yes, this kind of stress, as well as the depression he is feeling, can take time away from both of you. I was thinking about that when I was replying about the uncertainty of an expectation earlier.

Is there any way you can guide him into thinking that a retirement place would be his idea? That seams to work best with guys who are stubborn and want to be in charge. I have friends who have been able to do that with their parents but I don't seem to have the knack or my dad (83) just isn't willing to do anything but rationalize why anything only he wants is best. If anyone else thinks it is best, he'll fight it. I've been to a couple of doctors's appointments with him, the the ER and tried to get him to go to the hospital one time that he was probably very near dying. I think I understand the kind of guy he is.

Perhaps one more skilled in getting folks to think changes in plans are their own ideas will chime in with some suggestions. Sounds like you both have some thinking to do and some tough choices ahead. Stay strong.

I completely agree with lascatx, (and others) here. The son's boat, cars, and house needs to GO and monies returned to your spouse and his other son. Barring that, an accounting needs to be made in a revocable trust. I'm not a lawyer, but my Mom's trust outlined what each child borrowed (yes, borrowed and documented not stolen) and that had to be deducted before any residuals could be distributed from the estate.

PS, I'm not getting any warm fuzzies regarding your spouse here. He sounds like a guy who could "man up" but chooses not to. That's is disrespecful to you, your children, and his children. IMO Please take care with you. Hopefully you are close with your children. It may be time to bring them into this conversation, if you haven't already. Sending you hugs and prayers from the North East :)

Phoggie:

I'm a long time lurker and registered today just because of your post. As others have said, you need to protect yourself.

Good that your assets are in trust for your kids, but my concern is for your current house. What happens to DH's share of the house, if he should pass away before it is sold? Do you inherit, or does it transfer to his children? That could be a disaster in the making, so please figure that out and figure out how to protect yourself if it should come to pass. Who knows how this revelation might impact your DH's health and longevity and who knows how long it might take to sell in this economy.

As others have said, there is help out there. If DH won't talk to people, then you need to. And take care of YOUR health.

Phoggie, if you carefully read the posts above, some important themes emerge, and I'll take the liberty of restating these themes concisely: 1) you need professional advice, and lots of it, ideally from an eldercare attorney to start. Ask your physician to recommend one. 2) Consider the possibility that there are psychiatric and/or medical issues that are clouding your DH's judgment, but that does not mean that your judgment needs to be clouded. 3) Whatever is going on, this does not sound like a promising scenario for building a new house, and I would consider at least a temporary move to an assisted living facility or to a comfortable rental until you emerge from the "fog of war". Make no large decisions except how to secure your old age. Do everything you can to preserve your share of whatever proceeds are due you from the sale of your big house. And remember that your DH's clouded vision/judgement may prevent his making your own welfare his highest priority. In that case, you are the only person who can establish that priority, and you have an obligation to yourself to do just that. Your husband has demonstrated why you cannot defer to his decision-making. It sounds as though you have, in the past, made many wise decisions. Call on every available resource to do the same now: your (presumably more responsible) son, your attorney, your physician, etc.
Lynn

Phoggie, We have experienced a similar financial devastation in our family, though the particulars were different. After thinking about your situation all day I want to reiterate in the strongest way possible the importance of obtaining immediate professional legal and financial advice.

In our family's situation, once the liquid assets and investments were gone, the unscrupulous couple (A&B) persuaded party C (a parent/parent-in-law) to take out the maximum possible mortgage against C's all-paid-for upscale home, with the borrowed money going to A&B. I'll never understand why C went along with this, though I suspect promises that this would enable them to fix their failing businesses and repay C some of the prior gifted/borrowed money was part of it, as were flattery and C's embarrassment at the thought of A&B failing. The mortgage was secured secretly, with no other family members aware. The banker knew C well and knew C had no income, but was cowed by AB&C's insistence. C subsequently almost lost the home to foreclosure but sold it at a fraction of its value. This chain of events had a major impact on the financial future of C most of all, but also on the rest of the family who will need to support C in the future, as A&B have dropped out of the picture.

Of course your situation is different, but the point of my story is that there may still be steps that your husband could take to help the son and further weaken your financial future (from your share of your home), possibly without your knowledge or approval. People, including people you know well, can do some conniving, awful things. You need to keep this from happening to you.

I wish you all the best.

Phoggie, I haven't been on in a while (tearing up the old house we bought) but I'm so sorry to hear this! The stress... and all the emotions are tough! I just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you!!!

I'm so sorry. However, you must play the hand you're dealt. And it sounds like, for possibly the first time in your life, you must play alone. You can do this. It may seem daunting right now, but all you need to do is take one step at a time. As you do, you'll feel better, as you gain knowledge, as you get help, and as you realize you have the strength. Don't underestimate yourself. You need to put everything else aside and make it your mission to find a decent lawyer. Yes, some lawyers are bloodsuckers, but there are also plenty of lawyers out there who work pro bono or for reduced fees, for state agencies. Check out your local Legal Action. You're going to have to work at this - no doubt about it - but you can't give up. Why? Because you're 70 years young and have a lot of living to do. I went through some terrible battles with my family members and they did some things that I would never in a million years have expected them to do. It was ugly and it was sad and I wish it had never happened. But it did, I dealt with it, and it's over. I lived through it and I'm glad I stuck up for myself and my Dad. There are things a lawyer knows or can find out that no amount of googling or phone calls on your part will ever get you. Don't be afraid to ask a lawyer for very specific information as to what you are going to be charged for services. Don't be afraid to visit with more than one lawyer before you find one you like. Be sure to meet with them face to face. And tell them you don't want everything FedEx'd at your expense bc they waited until the last minute. :) Hang in there. And please, after the dust settles, let this caring community of GWers know how it all turned out.
All the best,
Betsy

wow...I am overwhelmed reading all of this. I have two suggestions for you.

1. Can you speak with your DH to a priest/minister/clergyman? Perhaps this could give him a better picture.

2. I know in every community, there is free legal advice. Catholic charities I know has it...

This stress can poison you and your relationship with him. Take a deep breath, and stick up for yourself.

Good luck. I'll be thinking of you.

Geez, I read your post quickly this morning, was thinking about it all day and couldn't wait to get home to reply. Now that I read all of the other replies, I see that you do have a lawyer. But, if so, I'm wondering why your lawyer hasn't made so many of the suggestions that the above GWers have? Also, your husband sounds like my Dad. Too proud to get help, admit anything's wrong, depressed, maybe even dealing with some dementia. If your husband won't listen to you, are there old friends or siblings that he might listen to? The religious leader idea is a good one. Your money may be safe but have you considered what you will do if his health gets significantly worse and he has no funds, but you do? I think the thing that struck me the most out of all these almost 50 posts was that you said "My husband has decided I will die early of inadequate care in a county nursing home. I can't argue because he's my husband." Wow. Please stick up for yourself. This is 2011, not 1950.

I'm so sorry this is happening to YOU. At this point, I am pretty mad at your DH (and could give a rats a$$ about DS who belongs in jail) so you're the one I care about in this situation.

You mentioned that the defunked business's building is up for sale. Is there some way to ensure that the money from a future sale will not go to DS loser-boy? Or at least make sure your DH gets his share? With the way loser DS has acted, I'd expect him to somehow make off with all the profit.

I know this may sound rough, but you need to take care of you at this point. It doesn't sound like you're heavily invested emotionally with this man. Sorry if I'm judging incorrectly. If he wont let you make some key decisions for the good of both of you, you may need to just do what's best for you regardless of what it means to him. Kaismom had a good point about him being at or past his life expectancy. You've got more living to do.

Chin up. Please let us know how things turn out.

I have no advice for you that hasn't already been given. Just know that I too, like so many here, am thinking of you. I hope that you and DH will resolve the situation which leaves you in a peaceful space.

After reading more what struck me is not only would building a house be a daunting task, but once built, it will need maintaining. I can understand your dh's reluctance for a retirement home, as those can have bad reps, but how about a condo or co-op? Someone else would be on call to shovel snow or take care of the grounds. If it is a co-op development, there is a super to fix things on the premises. You would be less isolated in a situation like that. If something were to happen to dh, then you would be able to stay in place and not have to worry about selling and moving again so soon. Chances are, there'd also be fewer bills to pay, which can be a godsend if one or the other falls ill. The costs would also be lower in a smaller place.
With the market downturn, condos and co-ops have dropped a ton in price. It would not be the same as renting, which dh would resist. It would give you the autonomy of owning your own place and yet less responsibility than owning a whole house (even a small one).

It sounds like your dh is protective of his son but not his wife. Only you know what would work moving ahead into the future. This is obviously a bad time in your marriage due to outside stressors, but how is/was it between the 2 of you before this news? If you were not happy and it has gotten worse, then now may be the time to cut ties. If you were happy and this is just a crisis that will calm down, then you may need to just make it clear that you are a partner and it is your turn to make some decisions, since it sounds like he has had a run of them.
Like you mentioned, the house you are in needs to be sold, so proceed with that regardless. Then, start making plans for your future, with or without him. If you decide to leave, you may want to delay announcing that and line up all your ducks in a row before you burn any bridges by giving notice. If you decide to stay with him, then make sure you do so on your own terms. You have gotten through tough times before and are obviously a strong woman to have raised 3 great kids as a single mom. You deserve some say in your life and financial security. Dh may want a grand newly built house, but if that is not practical, then he needs to know it won't be happening. Unless he can build his own house with his half the proceeds of the sale of your house, then he needs to collaborate with you when making plans. One thing to make sure is when you sell the house you own jointly, that you receive the proceeds separately at first. If a check gets made out that he has access to in full, you may find out where the son got his dna from...
Be strong, you have more power than you think!

Phoggie, I read your post late last night and have been thinking about you all day. I really don't have any advice to add to what's already been offered by others, but wanted to tell you that my thoughts and prayers are with you, and I hope you will take care of yourself! I'm so sorry that this has happened to you.

I was wondering how the current house is titled also. protect your interest (in his half?) of it. Who funds the care / upkeep of the house - you or him?

you also need someone to protect your (his) interest in the sale of that business building. besides the recovery of material items purchased with the money he took. That guy needs cut off at the pass!

my dbf has a son like this. dbf bails him out of every fix he gets himself into (and is starting the same with his gson). the son is in his mid 50's or so. can't hold a job, lives in one of his dad's houses etc. dbf can't bring himself to let his son 'hit' his bottom. until he does I doubt his son will ever change. He will continue this way waiting for his dad to die and he inherits. When he goes thru that, there will be no more gravy train. It might last a long time tho considering how much time he spends in prison. It just doesn't help your kids (including grown ones) to not allow them to suffer the consequences of their own actions.

what will your dh's son do when there is no one to funnel more money to him? i'm not really concerned about what happens to him - unless it hurts you anymore.

If you need something to take your mind off of things, look around your area for 2nds stores (where they sell those gently injured in shipment and floor models, last yrs models) and restore type places.

Phoggie,

This is terrible.

I agree with Kaismom. What about retirement facilities?
Start planning for your future not for a new house.
Meet with a lawyer put your affairs in order.
Get rid of the stress so you can start to enjoy your life.

~boxerpups

"DH was afraid that "the thief" would commit suicide when he confronted him, so DH told him no amount of money was worth that, so I think the son feels he is "home free" and if DH won't press charges, he is! "

Phoggie, I'm so sorry about your situation. What a nightmare.

Has your husband confronted his son yet directly about this? For the sake of their relationship, he needs to at some point, with/without assistance from some mental professional. Far, far better to be openly honest about all this, vs. skirt the issues. Also, guilt... can be terribly stressful.

As part of clearing the air, if you are serious about staying with DH, suggest you sit down with him and his 2 sons and daughter (if possible, otherwise called separately) and discuss your joint finances and estate plans. Discuss this with your own children, as well. This way, your wishes will be clear. My MIL and FIL (2nd marriages, both) have been very frank about their estates and the fact that assets will be divided equally amongst all the kids.

Best of luck with all and keep us posted. I have a 110 pound German Shepherd which I am offering up in your defense, as well as CeltinNE's :)

Phoggie, Online communities are anonymous, but they also can offer great comfort. You are getting good advice here. Let me just add in one more thought with regard to your current house. Be sure your interests and investments in it are protected. A good friend (in her 50s) went through a bad divorce. What saved her were the meticulous records she had from when she and her then husband remodeled the house she had owned pre-marriage. She was able to show what contributions had been hers and which had been her husband's -- and thus did not lose even half of the value to him in the final accounting. I realize that you and your husband built your current house after your marriage, but you still need to preserve your interests in it. As others have said, this would be a good conversation to have with a good lawyer in the interests of getting your ducks in a row now.

Continue to be the strong woman you've been in the past and use this forum to vent. You can rant and let off steam, knowing you won't have to look any of us in the face in the morning. That can be very liberating -- and a sanity saver!

I also hope you are able to take some comfort in knowing that most folks have experienced some sort of family issue; families are just messy. And for many of us, the outpouring of support probably comes from a "there but for the grace of God go I" feeling. You are not alone.

Finally, give you own children a chance to help you -- just as you supported for them when their father died many years ago. They can provide emotional support, help run down information, investigate housing alternatives, and the like. It can be hard to accept their help, but that's what real, non-toxic, family is for.

Oh I feel over-whelmed at the out-pouring of your wonderful, informative posts....and again, I sincerely appreciate each and every one of them~~

desertsteph~~It sounds like your dbf and "thief" are out of the same mold! DH still thinks he walks on water and never even brings up what he has done to him (or to us)...he doesn't tell me much about it...and just says that "it happened" and nothing he can do about it~~~well, the fact is he doesn't WANT to do anything about it.

Oh and to top this mess off (as if it wasn't enough), DS has gotten the business (from when it was still in operation) into another lawsuit that DH had nothing to do with, but since he is/was the primary stockholder in the business, DH is being taken to court again and is supposed to pay X over $200,000....but he has no credit, can't borrow the money, he has none, I told him never to ask me for a penny, if it as for that "rat-hole" business....so where that is going, I don't know.....maybe DH will end up in jail for contempt of court....so that is hanging over our heads also. I did consult an attorney and he said that X could not take our home, but I am still afraid that if we should sell this house and he has some $, could they take his half? (any lawyer want to comment?)

Oh, this business has gone on from one lawsuit to another for 10 years....all caused by what DS has created!!!!!! (but yet, DH still refuses to see DS for what he is/does, I don't understand it!)

DH has made both boys so dependent on him all of their lives (51 & 53) that they are still unemployeed...they won't be able work for anyone else.....heck, they would have to do a day's work...couldn't take off for every kid's ballgame or what the spoiled DIL wants him to do etc. Too pig-headed (like their D) to take any orders. One had a job...lasted 90 days...laid off...probably because he insisted on doing everything "his way".

When we built this house, we each put in like money (I sold my former house + CD) and he sold his former house. It is titled in his and my name....we probably should put it in the names of our trusts, but he has "promised me" that if anything happens to me first, he would give my half to my children......but now, I am wondering if he would really do it....the trust is gone~~

He has made it very clear to me....what he does with his money is HIS business...so I don't give a rat's ass how his kids fight about it when he dies (if he has any, he tells me that he doesn't). The daughter is a tax attorney, so I am sure she will take care of it... and she never wants to see the "thief" again in her life. In fact, it was the D that informed me that this had happened and the approximate amount he took....DH didn't tell me~~ People, this was not "chunk change", but a huge amount!!! She is very open and honest to me, but she lives far away and has a job that takes her all over the US every day in a different city...so I don't get to see her or talk to her very often. She is in favor of us moving to a duplex or something in a Sr. complex because DH will not do yard work or snow removal.....but he just thinks we can do as we do now....pay someone to do it.

As far as my kids....they do know some of the situation, especially my son...who will be my administrator, but they do not want to get involved~~~as I said, they love him and think he is the best thing that has happened to me since their dad was killed.

I definately will make sure I get my half of this house, if it sells....and as I said, I might go my own way, but I need it first........so hope for a quick sale!

THANKS from the bottom of my breaking heart....you certainly are giving me strength at this most needed time~

Okay, I was going to stay out of this but this sentence was the last straw:
"It is titled in his and my name....we probably should put it in the names of our trusts, but he has "promised me" that if anything happens to me first, he would give my half to my children......but now, I am wondering if he would really do it.."
After my father died my mother married a very sweet man 10 years her senior with two daughters. I have two sisters, the estrogen is overwhelming...They built a house together, he provided the land and she built the house. A like contribution from both. My mother was very careful to put into writing a very detailed account of what would happen in the future. Seemed overkill to me at the time but now I think she's a genius. Her husband passed away 10 years ago after years where my mother was the sole care provider after debilitating strokes. The surviving spouse had the right to remain in the home until the time of their choosing. They established a trust to help the survivor maintain the home and pay taxes. The husband of one of the daughters who wasn't even around 20 years ago is irritated because my mother at 78 hasn't highed herself off to assisted living yet and given the 1/2 the proceeds to them. They would be making her life miserable if all offspring hadn't gotten copies of the wills and prenups before the marriage. Good luck with this and REALLY, pull up your big girl panties and safeguard your assets- sounds like you had a rough road at the beginning of your adult life - you don't need this now.

Arghh, that sounded harsher than it should have - sorry. Residual resentment from how my mother is being treated being projected onto DH's son. Just want you to protect yourself!

Phoggie,

I did not mean to say that you should move to assited
living. I just meant to say get rid of the stress.
If it means a duplex or a condo or a wonderful apartment
that is the best direction especially since your
husband does not like to do the nitty gritty of house
living. Make the rest of your life wonderful.

Now is the time to take of you. This means letting out
the anger out in these posts (good stuff for you to purge)
And meeting with an attorney to get yourself safe. If
your DH wants to give it all away or let someone steal
from him, that is his choice. It is also your choice to
care for yourself. You can do this.

Thinking of you and realizing how important it is for all
of us to be good stewards of our money.
Wishing you find peace in this painful mess.
~boxerpups

This may sound very harsh but to protect your financial assets you should strongly consider a divorce even if you plan to stay together. I know of people who do this when one person is seriously ill to protect the other spouse's assets from being used up by medical costs. Was the business a corporation or not? If not your personal assets could well be at risk from a lawsuit (houses/homesteads are often protected as your lawyer advised depending on what state you live in.). You really need to get legal/financial advice as soon as possible.

I have been staying out of this as I follow it because I didn't want to stick my nose in, but the more I read, the more angry I get at your husband. I feel horrible for you Phoggie, and I am going to be way more blunt than I should be.

My question is why would you even consider staying with this person? He has told you he doesn't care if you stay or go, he won't do anything to get back money he lost that impacts your life, he is stubborn and pig headed as you described him, he won't make compromises or let you live where you want to live (despite his major mistake), he has not been honest with you and didn't even tell you about the money loss, he ARGUES with your doctor when you doctor says the stress is harming you, and he is in a host of financial messes that could seriously impact your quality of life.

So, what is the upside here? I get he helped you through surgeries and your kids like him, but I would still be on the telephone to the absolute best divorce lawyer I could find TODAY. Protect your interests, secure the assets that are yours, force the sale of the house as part of the divorce settlement and get your half before creditors come after it or he loses that too, buy yourself a nice condo near your kids and get this toxic person out of your life.

Weissman- I was thinking the same thing! Traditionally, people get married for two reasons...children and property. You don't have children together and the marriage is not helping your property, it's hurting it. Think about all the advice above and consider dividing your assets ASAP (however that has to be done...even divorce, if necessary) and let your DH do whatever he wants with HIS kids and HIS business. You need to look out for yourself, your kids and your future.

Sorry, if this sounds harsh. I'm all for fairy tale romance and happily ever after, but this sounds like an out-of-control train that is about to jump the rails. You may need to get off...and soon. Best of luck with whatever you decide!

You should decide what you want to do and the tell DH your plans. He can get on board, or stay behind. You need to look our for you, because it does not appear he has your best interests as a couple (or you as an individual) in mind.

If love is still there, approach with love. I feel for your situation and hope you can find calm and peace.

I think you should point your kids to this thread, or at least send them a copy of what you've written. I'm sure there are wonderful things about your husband (or you wouldn't have married him) but your children need to understand all sides of this, including and especially what your doctor has said about the health implications for you. You will need their support going forward, regardless of what you do re. your husband and your living situation.

Sorry, but he's just not that into you.

The more of this thread I read, the more I'm with beagles and marcolo. And I ditto the advice to get good counselors -- legal, financial, emotional -- to protect yourself, your children and your assets.

Query: at this point in the discussion, does "DH" still stand for "dear husband" as it customarily does, or does it mean something else altogether? If the latter, I have a few ideas. . .

phoggie, another harsh and blunt one here. I'm sorry. A boondoggle at best, but CF keeps running though my mind. Can you PLEASE tell us what state you are in? As others have posted, there are people here who are willing to help you. Even if your children:

"but they do not want to get involved~~~as I said, they love him and think he is the best thing that has happened to me since their dad was killed" As you said no one walks in your shoes but you.

You're going to need some help here, even if you are a strong, brave woman even with your big girl panties on! I think I can safely say, for most, if not all of us here. We do NOT love him. Our only concern, and I don't want to speak for anyone else here, is for your safety, wellbeing, and happiness. In THAT order.

Amen, beagles. Maybe it would help you to remove yourself from the equation. Not easy, I know. What would you advise to your own children if this mess was happening to them?

The fact the his D had to tell you and he did not, speaks volumes. Love aside, without trust and support and honor, it is crap in my book. If you don't have admiration and respect, it is not love. It's controlling and abusive. I deal with adolescents on a daily basis, with issues that are very similar (and much worse) to this. I have degrees and experience here and do not take this lightly. From your postings, he is a controlling, toxic bully. My protective instincts have been on overdrive here.

Excellent point, weissman! If this was a proprietorship or LLC, even some S corps, depending how it was written, your personal assets may be in jeopardy, if he has to pay X and will not come up with the funds, you may lose the house. (maybe a real estate person can advise you on a short sale). Do you know how the business was structured? Or, has he kept you isolated?

Get your ducks in a row, gather your trusted sources, NOW! Listen to your inner whatever. If you feel at any level, this is feeling off, GET OUT, and go stay with your kids. My Dad used to say, "take care with you,", not of you. And the distinction was, for him, taking care with someone is more human and less controlling. We take of details and take care with people. Take care with and of. of both. May the wind be at your back from this day forward!

You are all making so much sense.

Weissman~~for the reason I stay and don't get a divorce, (believe me, it has crossed my mind more than once)......I absolutely can not live without his Social Security checks
...plain and simple!! He has no money to buy my half of the house and has no credit to get a loan...and I can not just walk away from my assets that I have invested in it. Without that money, I can not afford to buy/rent/or anything else. There doesn't seem to be any one who can afford to buy this house either. So financially, I am stuck~~ This house is the only asset that we share. My car is mine and his pickup is his. I file "single & married" income taxes, so none of our money has ever been together.

DH (you can take that for whatever) does have some good qualities...and is not mean to me...doesn't drink or run around on me...actually, I am the only thing that he has left....other than his beloved son! I know he is depressed about all of this....do I kick him when he is down? But D(and not dear!)S didn't mind doing it to us.

I am trying to sort it out in my mind....but counselors and legal advisors cost money....money that I do not have.

Marcolo....I think you might be very right.

I am doing my best to hang in there....dreading what the next lawsuit might bring...court is next month...and hoping a buyer comes with an offer we can accept....until this all happens, I try to leave it up to God...He says not to worry or be anxious, but golly darned, it is so hard to do!!!!

Thanks again~~and bless you all~~

Phoggie, there are free and sliding scale fee services available, if you will avail yourself of them. Several people on this forum have offered to find referrals for you. Take them up on it.

Phoggie,

I have been following this thread and really feel for you. I have seen similar situations with a couple of my tax clients, but none as bad as this. You have been given a lot of good advice from previous posters, and I hope you will do all that you can to protect yourself as it sounds like things could get worse. You do need a good attorney to assist you.

I don't believe you have mentioned just what type of business it was, but the fact there have been lawsuits makes me wonder if it was a money management type of business (on the order of Madoff) or some other type of business where personal liability would be involved. If it is something of that type, even if the business is incorporated, it may be that people can go after personal assets if there was anything considered malpractice. That is why Attorneys, CPAs, Doctors, etc. carry malpractice insurance even when their business is incorporated.

I am glad that you have the trust from before your marriage, and hopefully you have had it reviewed recently to see that it is still protecting your assets. Is the house in Joint Tenancy? If so, you may want to have it re-titled to protect your half interest. An attorney can advise you regarding how best to have it titled to meet your needs. What is best could vary depending upon what state you live in.

Take care and take charge!

Phoggie, I wonder whether his daughter the tax attorney might be a good ally in all of this? First, she's an attorney. Second, she doesn't want her loser brother to get away with this. Third, as a family member, she's in a good position to influence your DH to do the right thing. What do you think?

Phoggie. This is a very sad statement

"DH (you can take that for whatever) does have some good qualities...and is not mean to me...doesn't drink or run around on me...actually, I am the only thing that he has left....other than his beloved son! I know he is depressed about all of this....do I kick him when he is down? But D(and not dear!)S didn't mind doing it to us."

I'm sorry, but what he has done is FINANCIAL INFIDELITY and that is almost worse than cheating on you, because of the huge potential it has to ruin your life. Aside from which, if the "good qualities" that make you stay married to him are that he isn't a drunk and isn't mean to you, that is a very sad commentary on the state of marriage.

It is not YOUR fault he is down. It is not your fault he is depressed. If he was doing something to get help or to be proactive at getting his life together, that would be a different thing and that would be fine to stay and see him through. IF you are determined to stay in the marriage, then I would make him getting help (emotional if needed, legal definitely) an absolute prerequisite condition of remaining in the marriage. If you stay because you feel guilty or you feel like you can't kick him when he is down, that's just enabling and codependent.

I am being harsh because your response did not say 'I stay because I love him." That would be a different story, maybe, but even then, marriages are not based on love alone and there is no trust or mutual respect in this one, from what you have said.

Do not stay because of financial reasons. If you have been married long enough, your divorce lawyer may be able to secure you a portion of his social security check or alimony if you are dependent on his income. At least find out. You will also not be walking away from your financial interest in the house if you get a lawyer and a divorce settlement that legally entitles you to 1/2 of that house. In fact, you probably have a better chance of getting your half of that house if you are divorced.

OK, I'll be quiet now and I won't say any more. But, please, please, please at least speak to a divorce lawyer just once about what your options are. Call legal aid, call a local law school, find services in your area that offer legal help to women or the elderly and FIND OUT WHAT YOUR OPTIONS ARE. If you know what your options are and you still don't want to leave him, then at least you will have explored your options.

Phoggie,

If you cannot afford to take care of yourself now, just think about the costs of not doing so. Ask your kids for help. Ask for charity. Do what you need to do.

There is no easy way out of this, but if you don't pick one of the hard ways available to you, your options might be even worse later.

Regarding kicking your husband "while he's down" -- guess what? You are not responsible for his being down, and his refusal to stand up for his and your interests is also not your fault. His unwillingness to confront reality is also not your fault.

You cannot wait for a solution that doesn't upset anyone, and God helps those who help themselves. Are you sure it's God's will that you not worry or be anxious? "Let go and let God" is a great saying once you have done all you can do for yourself. But if there are lawsuits involved, God's not going to show up in court and defend you. If your DH loses a lawsuit, God is not going to pay a judgement lien against the house if it hasn't been properly protected.

You've made some brave steps here in admitting your situation, but you need to need to take the next steps.

Phoggie- I'm sorry, but that excuse that you have no choice but to stay because there's not enough money to leave...is why women don't leave their abusive husbands, even when they beat them and their children. There is always help and money available...that's what social programs are for, to help people when they are trapped in these types of situations.

Find out EXACTLY what it will take to force the sale of this house. Sell if for far less than current value, if you have to...but sell it and move on. I'm sure your children will help you, if you tell them you may lose everything...and will have no choice but to live with them, possibly with "DH" in tow.

Get some help, figure out your finances and turn the page. You don't need the stress or the worry...and it's starting to sound like you don't need DH or his family, either. Sorry, but this sounds like a 'Lifetime movie' about to go bad, so please get some help now!

And please, talk to your children as soon as possible...I would want to know what was going on, if you were my mom! :)

Oh phoggie, this has been on my mind since you posted yesterday and I just want to say that I am so sorry this has happened to you. Just when we think we've got life figured out something like this happens.

I have a couple of questions and comments and I am going to try to do this in a coherent fashion b/c I have so many things running through my brain about this.

How was your marriage before this came out in the open? It sounds like at one point it was a caring environment after your surgeries and such.

If so, could it be that his current behavior is a result of his actions. Meaning that he is depressed, outraged, angry, disconnected, snappy, etc. because he knows that this is his fault and he acted in a irresponsible/stupid fashion that has let you/himself down because of his trust and blind faith in this son. His anger might stem from the fact that he was had at his age. He probably thought this could never happen to him esp. since it was his own son. It could that he is being distant and short with you b/c he can't bring himself to acknowledge the fact that he screwed up and messed up both of your futures.

Another part of the story could be that he is also extremely mad at his son and in disbelief that his own son could do this to him. This to him may mean that he failed as a parent and holding the son accountable for the theft would acknowledge the fact that his son is a scumbag. All of these things could contribute to the fact that he has become a distant and argumentative "butthead" (for lack of a better word). His age doesn't help.

If this is not the case and he has always been distant and nonchalant about your marriage, I say cut bait. You still have too many good years ahead of you to be drowning in this boondoggle (both relationship and finances). If you explain to your kids the situation, I am sure they would be more than happy to help you. You could move closer to them, be close to grandkids, doctors, other ladies and friends that you could do things with, get active in different organizations, etc. This is the time you should be enjoying life not be mired down in some legal disaster.

If you choose to stay, I say only if he agrees to get help (mentally, legally, and financial) otherwise like your doctor said this is going to suck the rest of your life out of you. I hate to be that blunt, but it will. I think you know by the sharing and outpouring of thoughts on this thread that many people are concerned and care about you and the outcome of this. I hope I have been able to get my point across and not get too wordy. I have a tendancy to do that. Anywho, I firmly believe in these three quotes:

"That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger"
"God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle"
and last buy not least
"What goes around comes around"

That last one I have seen for myself and karma is a Bit#@!

You are a very smart and obviously independent woman. I feel certain you will make the right decision. You didn't get this far on your own with three kids by being dumb.

Shannon

definately legal advice is in order as it seems that is the only advice you can trust right now, however,

why has this been going on for 10 years (lawsuits,etc)yet only made you so angry recently? It sounds like you thought your future was more secure and now it isnt, kinda like what happened when you were 33, all those feelings are coming back again. it also might be clouding your judgement. i dont doubt your husband could be controlling and pig headed, most men who made their own wealth are,(and he could be getting dementia or some other senior ailment) but certainly there are other reasons you married him. try to remember those and the good memories as you go through this stressful time.

If he's 80, my guess is money is not as important to him as it once was and perhaps he would rather preserve what little relationship he has with his kids OR maybe he has more money squirreled away that you just dont know about. it does sound like neither of you got involved in each others finances, so how would you know?

You've already made several smart financial moves to protect you and your childrens futures many years ago so my advice would be to sit tight for now until the house sells, then reassess at that time. if it is a big house, it could take several years to sell depending on where you live.

and then find something to take your mind off of it...volunteering, painting,visiting children/grandchildren

Warning, this is blunt but I am going to say it anyway.

After reading through all of this topic, I have a sense that what is really going on here phoggie is that you are venting online about a situation you are not going to change.

Frankly, this is not that uncommon in the online world, at least from what I've seen. Someone is stressed seemingly to the breaking point, isn't getting anywhere in Real Life with a difficult partner and comes to a friendly but very anonymous internet site to unload. Quickly the responses mount up, people offering everything from sympathy to practical solutions to harrowing stories of personal similar experiences. And, as that happens the original poster starts to retreat. Somehow despite the desperate situation there are always reasons why s/he can't take the logical. legal or reasonable steps that are available.

Phoggie, I am hoping you are able to resolve your situation but it won't come by sharing it with gardenweb. But then you know that already. You also know what you are and are not willing to do to fix the problem you are in, and as always that is your choice and your decision. And reading between the lines, the real problem isn't just a thieving son, it is also the relationship and lack of trust between you and your husband. After all, how many people would be happy to know their spouse is only staying with them for a social security check? (Not that I think that is the whole truth but I like everyone on this forum have no way to know). I truly hope you find peace and a resolution, but it might come easier with a therapist than a lawyer. Although it sounds like you need both!

Phoggie, you don't have to kick him when he's down -- just refuse to be pulled down any further and insist that he stand up and join you or stay down there by himself. He may need that to get jolted out of his depression. If he doesn't stand up and start dealing with things to make it right with you, he never will and you cut your losses. If he comes around -- great, get help together.

If it were me, I'd tell him to stop feeling sorry for himself and start acting like a man who still has a life to live. This is a big enough problem that you have to work as a team to try to get past it. If he won't work for you and won't work with you, that's not a team, it's not a marriage in my book. If you're together, you can handle most anything.

I cut him some slack for shock and depression, for being 80 and possibly not as capable of sorting things out and thinking them through as he once was (and too proud and stubborn to admit it), but you come to a point where you have to take a stand. This is a time for you to be the strong one -- strong enough to be the one who can take the lead in sorting things out if needed, strong enough to convince him that you are either in this together or not, and if it is not, strong enough to turn and walk away and stay only close enough to fight for what is rightfully yours. Maybe you can stay with that daughter until you can get your proceeds from the house (or the son's assets) and get an apartment.

I'm not advocating leaving him, but I'm not advocating staying either. I'm advocating not being helpless. I'm advocating cutting your losses and figuring out how to make the best of what you have left for as long as possible. You don't have to be helpless. If you let yourself be held hostage by half a house or a social security check when you still have your own trust assets and family, you can be vulnerable to anything.

If you have said what state you are in, I have missed it. All the rights and interests in the house, the business, the proceeds, the lawsuits, etc -- they are all governed by state law and will vary depending on where you are. The ability of anyone to help you with information or finding legal or other help depends on knowing where you are as well. We need at least a state.

Oh, I feel so sorry for you. What an awful situation to find yourself in.

I think I can understand your husband's unwillingness to press charges against his son - esspecially if there is a close relationship with the grandchildren. Grandparents have few rights in this country (and generally with good reason), so at his age he might be afraid of his son cutting off his relationship with the grandkids. I know I would walk on hot coals to maintain a relationship with my precious grandchildren. Thankfully, I have not yet been asked to do so. :)

Best wishes.

Not trying to create any trouble, but for all the kind hearted people that are concerned about phoggie, you all should know that she new about the money stealing a year ago already. There is a thread about it in Buying/selling. There she also says she lives in Kansas.

So not really sure anymore what we are dealing here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Decisions are SO hard...what would you do?

Punamytsike- Did you tattle on your older siblings, when you were little? If Phoggie wanted to share her information, I'm sure she would do so...on her own, with no help from you whatsoever!

She's never made it a secret where she lives, but if she's chosen not to mention the state in this post, I believe we need to respect HER privacy. She also didn't say all these things happened last night. She said that they happened, she's very frustrated about it...and if anything it seems to be wearing VERY thin. That would explain why she's so frustrated, because this has been going on for some time and her DH refuses to do anything about it. I don't know if the lawsuit (and the complications that may result in loss to her income) is new or not...and it doesn't really matter.

I don't know about you, Puny, but I choose to believe the best in people, until proven otherwise. Phoggie has always been a very nice, sweet, kind person on the other forums I 'see' her on, and I don't need someone posting older posts, trying to make complications for a woman, who has already said she has cardiac problems. Why don't you go take care of your own life, then you can try running everyone else's.

Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but you so remind me of my least favorite SIL, right now.

I agree that punamytsike's post was out of the blue and could be interpreted as harsh and "tattle-tale"y, but it does raise the point raised by runninginplace. Is the OP just venting, or really interested in advice? Either is fine -- but be honest about it. (Much like that long thread about people who asked for kitchen advice and then got offended when people gave candid criticisms?)

I can imagine the SIL that Lavendar is talking about -- we all have someone similar in our families, it seems -- but I also know people who vent about problems, garner support and encouragement (and professional referrals, offers for help, etc.), getting others emotionally involved in their plight, all the while having no intention of doing anything about it.

So, phoggie -- you've already gotten lots of sympathy and good advice here. Now what steps are YOU willing to take on your OWN behalf to do something about it? If you just want to vent and have no intention of improving your circumstances, fine, you're a competent adult and that's your choice -- but just say so.

Wow, runninginplace. I'm not sure I've ever read a post anywhere that seemed so spot-on, insightful, direct but even manages to be kind.

I followed punamy's link and several other very much like it. I won't go describing or trying to randomly interpret what I found, but it puts me, as punamy says "not really sure anymore what we are dealing here" - though actually, I suppose runninginplace really captures what I would say if I knew how to be that wise and perceptive.

In reading back, I see that Lavender has invested a huge amount of posting-time with/on phoggie through the years and may feel quite close toward her.

I haven't boxer's prodigious googling skills but have picked this up at least from the forum. To search GW you must use google, not GW, with the following term in addition to whatever words you are actually searching:

site:ths.gardenweb.com

I'm not suggesting any or everyone go snooping back. I want to lend support to punamy's actually quite non-judgmental, simply informational, possibly cautionary post; and runninginplace's astute sense of what to caution about. I used to think I was needy or annoying to post back so frequently in response to others' comments on my questions. But there is something quite different going on when people do post a question but never respond to it; when there is a huge emotional outcry from large numbers of strangers - the questions include: to what end? who's being helped? why?

I remain 100% sympathetic to phoggie and her story! I really hope you find a way through this deep disappointment.

And I remain truly grateful for the kindness of strangers. Yet, we all need lessons in protection.

Sometimes we need to vent. The help and kindness of strangers, even blunt, can be helpful because it isn't a friend staring us in the face telling us what to do where we are more apt to be resentful.

All the best to you and what you and DH decide. I'll agree with everyone that a lawyer needs to be called in. If DS can do this to family what is he and wife doing to strangers? He needs to sell his house, personal belongings, empty his savings account and give you the profit and go away.

I got from the OP that she wants help in building a kitchen on a tight budget. As helpful as the comments have been, maybe phoggie has already made a decision, you can't force someone else's mind, and we can all say what we would do in a situation, but until you are in it you can't know for sure just how you would really and truly react. Emotions and family can be difficult.

So phoggie can you help us out? You say you have drawings...can you post those? Does it need to be handicap usable? ie cooktop with wheelchair access underneath? With a layout, people may be more apt to give layout advice and budget help. Appliance ideas and cabinet choices. People here are wonderful, whether with our life frustrations, contractor issues, or layout indecisions. And post the layout in a new post, you can always reference this one if you want.

Hugs.

pence~~I do think you are on to something...it is more important that he still has a good relationship with his son and his children (DH's only grandchildren) than money at his age.
He has made the statement that he has been very poor and very wealthy, but his life has been a "good ride"...he has been blessed in so many ways...as well as blessed to have had two (one is me) wonderful wives~~

The reason this has gone on for years...DH was the architect and primary owner in the construction business, which son ran into the ditch..not paying the bills, not doing acceptable work (and didn't pay the errors & omissions insurance nor the workman's comp)...so those errors and injuries had to be paid out of good old dad's pocket! For all of the years we have been married, there has never been a construction job that son has done that hasn't ended up in a conflict or lawsuit of some type...so that has been our life. I am hoping the one that is looming will be the last because the business is closed and they are doing no more work.

Lousianapurchase~~ Wonderful words and thoughts...and I loved the last quote "What goes around, comes around"...and I am hoping this comes true in son's case!

Lascatx~~your words and thoughts are priceless....and I do live in KS.

Lavender~~THANKS for your kind words...they are appreciated

DH does have an attorney (heaven only knows how large that bill might be through all of this mess). I have consulted an attorney several times and feel confident with his advice. We started to counseling and our counselor died suddenly....didn't seem to do much good and he was convienced it was a waste of time and money....I also went alone...and maybe I'll find another one.

Thanks for your support....right now, I think I will ride out the next lawsuit....hope for a quick house sale...and hope that we can get out lives back together when we can get of this town away from his son.... He now says he doesn't want me to leave...he loves me....and I love him too, but lots of times, I don't like him very well.

I like the rental idea too. Just make sure that whatever money you and he do have left gets spent. Every single penny. Or that his estate goes to a charity or the cat or *your* kids or buried under a tree in a park. Just anywhere that his kids can't get it.

Btw, do not discount the work and depth of local charities/legal aid in your area, especially those that advocate for the elderly. As mentioned above, elder abuse can take many forms, not just neglect and bed sores. Many fine, fine attorneys work for these agencies because they want to help people and they know how. A measure of an attorney is not always found in their billable rate - often it's inversely proportionate....

We, as women, especially older generations, are brainwashed by society that women must be gentle and quiet and not make a fuss. We should fall into line and let our husbands do the talking. I say screw that - make a fuss. A giant, big 'ol fuss. He committed a FELONY, not to mention the ethical issues of STEALING FROM ONE OF YOUR PARENTS. Good lord. The son's a slimebag, if your husband won't press charges, I'm sure the IRS will be interested. I really doubt he paid taxes on that money. Perhaps you need to make an anonymous phone call or mail a large envelope with documents under cover of darkness....

If you want advice on a low-budget remodel, post your floorplans and your goals and rough budget.

If you want to vent, that is understandable but your first post certainly sounded like this was news. It is best to be direct on a forum about what one wants, venting included. We've had people in the past who pretended to be engaged in an active project when all they wanted was attention.

So not really sure anymore what we are dealing here.

I had similar thoughts early on in this thread. Have seen similar testaments on various forums through the years.