skip to main content

Electrical Wiring

Sauna Wiring - Electrical fire - Please advise

16 years ago

I had a sauna installed months ago and haven't had any problems with it until last week. When preheating, it was sparking and smoking. I turned it off, pulled the heater panel off and got the following:

http://www.livenudedogs.com/saunaWire.jpg (picture of the control box)

If you look at the black wire at the bottom, it had 8 braided wired, but the installer cut 4 of them so he could screw it to the terminal.

The job called for a 10 gauge solid wire, but he used braided 8 gauge.

The unit is also 25amp. He installed 40amp breaker.

He is saying it was wired properly and it's a malfunctioning unit. The company is saying it was wired wrong.

Can anyone help me out? This is a $750 heater that I haven't had for 3 months.

I believe that using the 8 gauge wire is ok, but by cutting 4 of the braided wires, does that not make it a lower gauge wire? Would that cause the problem by the terminals? The red wire is fine. It's the black wire that melted at the terminals.

Thanks in advance.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (7)

DavidR
16 years ago
From the photo, it doesn't appear to me that the connection you mention overheated. The cut-down stranded wire's insulation shows no signs of excessive heat and its screw isn't discolored. Rather, it appears to me that the terminal strip's connection to the sauna's own wiring (top left of photo) was at fault.

Thus, my inclination is to say that would be a manufacturing defect. However, two cautions - I don't know whether that terminal strip was installed at the factory, or by the installer. Also, I'm not looking at this in person.

This is not to excuse the installer. The connection method itself is very poor practice and not a workmanlike installation. In addition, he or she committed a code violation in failing to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions on wire size and breaker capacity.

My cautious judgement, based on the information provided, is that the sauna probably was not installed correctly, but that the damage wasn't caused by the faulty installation. This puts you in a rather difficult position in which both sides can keep pointing the finger at each other.

BTW, what's that yellow wirenut doing in there on the white wire? And isn't a yellow wirenut too small for a #8 wire? Or did the installer just use that to cap off an unused white wire in the cable?
cramp11
Original Author
16 years ago
Hi David. Thanks for your response.

The terminal strip was already part of the heater unit. He just had to attach the black, red and ground to it. His wires have no markings at all. It is all above the terminal on the heater's side.

The white wire is just being capped off. It is not being used.

This does leave me with a problem. The warranty is void if not installed properly which obviously it wasn't, but it looks like the problem is on the heater's side. I'm hoping I can find a 1/2 way point with the company.

One more thing... The wiring goes from the panel to a junction box in the sauna. From there it goes to the heater. The installer said he is going to switch to a 10 gauge from the junction box to the sauna heater. (8 gauge to 10 gauge) Is that ok? I don't understand jumping between wire sizes. It would be next to impossible to pull the 8 gauge and replace it with 10 gauge everywhere due to it being behind a now finished wall.

The installer is also going to switch the 40amp with a 30amp. (which should have been done in the first place)
Related Discussions
Unusual Wiring - Comments please
Q
Comments (9)
Now that the flames and lectures have subsided I would like to add a bit more information in hopes of getting some useful discussion about this situation. Disturbed by the wiring mentioned above, I discussed the situation with an uninvolved Licensed Electrician who opined that the fixture wiring would have been OK if they had marked the green wire white to show it as a neutral. Is there any support for that opinion here on this forum? I have a serious concern over the compromised ground system that was discovered and wonder what else may be improperly wired in the building. I recommended that the owner advise the GC of the wiring problem that was uncovered and ask that he (the GC) engage a competent but uninvolved Electrical Inspector to evaluate the buildings' electrical system- with particular attention to the integrity of the ground system. Does this seem reasonable as a first step and should anything else be added to the recommendation?
...See More
Electrical wiring nightmare please advise
Q
Comments (9)
Okay here goes.First of all,remember nothing in the Caribbean is the way it is supposed to be. That's not a complaint just a fact of life we accept. The light switch as you enter the kitchen goes up the inside wall in conduit embedded in concrete.The wires for the ceiling boxes are laid after the roof is framed and run through the purloins on top of the insulation to the point in the wood rafter roof where the wire decends down through a hole.Then the roof metal in our case galvanized aluminum goes down and everything is closed up with no access to the purloins or wires ever again. Instead of two wires which would control each device separately the electrician ran one wire from the wall switch as you enter through the galley kichen fan and then kept going out to the ouside eating area directly in front of the kitchen. We keep ceiling fans on 24/7 for good air movement and because we rarely need air conditioning somehow even though he had a very specific punch list of what I wanted he assumed both fixtures were fans not one that is a fan and one that is a light. Hope this makes sense. But the issue is that it is not a straight run of wire through a conduit where you can use a snake and feed another wire it is a contrived connection. I looked at the Smarthome site today and it sounds like a good solution. I was going to head to STT tomorrow to pick up water heaters and thought I would check out Radio Shack to see what types of remotes they carry.
...See More
recessed can light not working-please advise
Q
Comments (31)
I assumed that since both switches were in the same box that they were on the same breaker. Wrong. Last night I decided to give up on finding a solution at least for awhile. I only use this light about 4 times a year. In the middle of the night, I began to think what if it is on another breaker. We have 2 200 amp breaker boxes- one in an upper garage and one in the basement garage in the tool room. This morning, I checked the upper garage breaker box for the umpteenth time. Everything was turned on. I went to the 200 amp breaker box in the lower garage. A breaker was off. It was not labeled. I turned it on. I went upstairs and flipped the switch-the bulb came on and in a split second went out. I have no clue as to why the bulb went out so suddenly. I replaced the bulb with another 45 watt bulb and so far so good. All of the other first floor lights are on the upper garage breaker box. I had no reason to think that each switch in the same switch box was on a different breaker and a completely different breaker box. I think the initial positive reading I received with the voltage detector pen must have been a mistake as the voltmeter always registered 0. I have labeled the breaker as going to this can light. When the house was being built, the electrician forgot to label some of the breakers or forgot to label all the lights on a breaker. Several breakers were marked incorrectly. Over the past years, I would spend time turning breakers off to see what went where so I could label everything correctly. This one I probably forgot to turn back on as I do not use it often- thought the bulb had burned out and assumed the recessed can was on the same breaker as the chandelier. I access the upper breaker box 99 percent of the time and only need to turn off items in the lower breaker box maybe once a year. Thanks for all of your help!!
...See More
Trying to decide between a gas vs electric oven, any advise please?
Q
Comments (9)
There are a few differences in gas and electric ovens. You will find that chefs and manufacturers would say gas is “moist” heat because water is a byproduct of combustion and so electric must be dry. The problem is they are not looking at the whole oven and the process of cooking. What are sources of moisture and what happens to it? There is moisture released with the combustion of gas. Food also produces quite a bit of moisture in the cooking process. I read just a couple of weeks ago on the Miele website that a cake baking provides the equivalent of the 30 % steam setting on their steam oven. Imagine how much moisture is produced with some other foods. Gas ovens have a much bigger vent to vent the products of combustion and moisture from food. You have a lot more movement of air through a gas oven while an electric oven has a much smaller vent, holding on to the moisture produced by the food. Reading cooking and baking forums you hear these comments over and over. Gas ovens put more heat and moisture into the kitchen. Gas ovens are great for roasting and browning. If you read about the Maillard reaction, you will see that you must have drying to allow the temperature of the surface to rise and browning chemical reactions to take place. Some bread bakers want to add steam at the beginning of baking to promote starch gelatinization for a specific type of crust. They report it is much more difficult to keep added steam in a gas oven. Baking is a complex interaction of variables so it is difficult to make hard and fast rules because you only have to change one or two of the variables and get a different result. Some bakers say that cakes don’t rise as well if they had an electric oven and go to gas. Sometimes they say gas produces a dry looking cake. This again has to do with starch gelatinization being prolonged in an electric oven giving a little longer rise. This doesn’t mean you can’t bake in gas. I think some recipes work well in gas and over the years, you keep recipes that work and discard those that don’t. Cake mixes are formulated to work in different conditions so work with both. Things with more sugar may also show more difference. Eveness in baking is tricky. That’s what everybody wants. Convection is marketed as the answer to even heat but it can make air currents that make hot spots. The fan is drying to the surface of what you are baking or roasting so that part browns quicker if it gets exposed to an air current. Some companies try to fix that by having two fans, baffles or a reversing fan. Some ovens have a variable speed fan. The fan does change the direction of heat so that it comes from more directions instead of the bottom. Many recipes for cakes and pies were developed with the heat coming from the bottom. There are very expensive electric ovens that don’t have it right and my DILs Bosch gas oven is pretty good. My Electrolux oven is pretty even but has other problems. Aside from the the nature of the heat, electric ovens can have more control. They may have a third element (true or European convection) and direct heat from the top or bottom, more from the top for roasting. A few gas ovens may have these features now. They can have very tight control of temperature, maybe +/- 2F but I’m not sure how much that matters. More important to me is the range of temperature. My current oven has 80-450F and the fan can blow with the heat off or up to 450F. Some ovens only go as low as 225F. Both of my ovens have slow or fast fan speed. I know bakers that use gas and electric. Some commercial ovens have steam injectors and ventilators to control humidity. Gas broilers come come in two forms, the first is a conventional one that doesn’t get that hot. There are also gas infrared broilers that heat evenly and get hot but might be smaller.
...See More
joed
16 years ago
How would the warranty be handled? If you were to disconnect the wires from the heater and return it, it would be obvoius that the heater was the problem. They would not be able to tell that the improper wire size was used. As far as you know a licensed electrician installed it to code.
It sounds like he took an unused stove circuit and used it for the heater.
DavidR
16 years ago
I reread your initial post and I notice it says "the job called for" #10 wire and "The unit is also 25amp," not that the installation instructions required a particular breaker and wire. What counts for code is what the sauna heater's instructions require.

Larger wire than specified shouldn't be a problem unless the terminals aren't rated for it. The installer could have crimped spade or ring lugs onto the #8 stranded wire. The breaker or fuse specified by the instructions should have been installed. Et cetera, et cetera.

Joed has a point. I hope you haven't already called up the sauna manufacturer and told them how it was installed.
cramp11
Original Author
16 years ago
Unfortunetely the sauna place has seen the photo and questioned the wiring. I have a message with them now to call me back and I'm waiting for the installer to bring back the heater. (he took it with him so he could analyze the problem from home and concluded he wasn't going to touch anything inside. It's a defect)

The directions stated that a min 10 gauge wire had to be used. It didn't say 8 gauge couldn't be used. The directions also didn't say anything about a breaker size. I just said the unit is 25amp.

Oh... the installer also didn't use existing wiring. It was all run new. I think he just screwed up when he read the dirctions. The bigger heater called for 8 gauge and was rated 33amp.

I'll keep everyone posted. *fingers crossed*
DavidR
16 years ago
The directions stated that a min 10 gauge wire had to be used.

That was done.

The directions also didn't say anything about a breaker size. I just said the unit is 25amp.

A 30 amp breaker would have been fine.

The installation wasn't workmanlike, IMO, but I don't think any reasonable person would contend that it caused the damage in this case.

I don't know how much this would help, but I think I'd contact the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and CC the sauna manufacturer on my correspondence. It might even be enough to just mention the CPSC.

Good luck!
cramp11
Original Author
16 years ago
The sauna place did not dispute that there was a problem with the unit and is sending another wiring/control panel package. I am to send him the bill for the electrician to install it. Hopefully that'll be the end of it. I'm still having a 30amp fuse put in instead of the 40amp.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know if something goes wrong.

Related Stories

HOME OFFICES Quiet, Please! How to Cut Noise Pollution at Home

By Christine Ciarmello

Leaf blowers, trucks or noisy neighbors driving you berserk? These sound-reduction strategies can help you hush things up

MOST POPULAR 9 Real Ways You Can Help After a House Fire

By Alison Hodgson

Suggestions from someone who lost her home to fire — and experienced the staggering generosity of community

FIREPLACES Updated Woodstoves Keep Home Fires Burning

By Eric Reinholdt, Architect

Better technology means more efficiency than ever for modern woodstoves

HOLIDAYS Simple Pleasures: Savoring the Season of Warmth and Light

By Laura Gaskill

Light up your home and lift your spirits on cold winter days with these decorative touches

OUTBUILDINGS World of Design: 11 Inspiring Sheds From Santa Barbara to Stockholm

Outbuildings from around the world show how sheds and cottages set the scene for everything from baking in a sauna to beekeeping

HOME TECH Save Your Decor — Hide Your Media Stuff

By Eco+Historical, Inc.

When you tuck boxes, wires and speakers into walls and ceilings, all you'll notice is your favorite shows or music

LIFE How to Prepare for and Live With a Power Outage

By Lisa Frederick

When electricity loss puts food, water and heat in jeopardy, don't be in the dark about how to stay as safe and comfortable as possible

BATHROOM DESIGN Warm Up Your Bathroom With Heated Floors

By Tiffany Carboni

If your bathroom floor is leaving you cold, try warming up to an electric heating system

LIGHTING 10 Chandeliers for People Who Don't Like Chandeliers

Get all the chandelier benefits without channeling Liberace, thanks to wood, paper, wire — and even a surprising old-fashioned staple

GREEN BUILDING Going Solar at Home: Solar Panel Basics

By Christine Tusher

Save money on electricity and reduce your carbon footprint by installing photovoltaic panels. This guide will help you get started

Sponsored

EK Interior Design

5 Reviews

TIMELESS INTERIOR DESIGN FOR ENDLESS MEMORIES

More Discussions

How to place outlets within 24" of a sink (with dishwashers)

27

How much is reasonable to replace an exhaust fan in a bathroom?

15

challenging lighting situation - under upper flight of stairs

13

Why would only one outlet be working and no others on the same breaker

4

Question about an outdoor flood light socket

4