Any GFCI-protected receptacles with grounding pins that are in fact not connected to the grounding system, must be marked NO EQUIPMENT GROUND. You can use these anywhere. Doing the kitchen and other wet areas where GFCI's would have been required or prudent anywhere, is a good idea.

The other option (and the advice is potentially incomplete) is to run a grounding conductor back to some point of the legal grounding electrode system. This may be the ground rods your main service is connected to. It can be a metal water pipe IF it comes in from underground and you connect to it within 10 feet of it entering the building.

Yo must use a listed grounding clamp. For the sake of your pipe, you want one that is galvanically compatible (e.g., copper on copper) to keep that from corroding your pipe away.

You must use either bare or GREEN insulated wire. It must be sized appropriately for the circuit (12 or larger for 20A, 14 or larger for 15A).

Keep in mind you can bond to the water line all day long but it wont serve any purpose unless it is bonded to the neutral in the panel. Even then any grounds should be run back to the panel and not attached willy nilly to any water line, ground rod or other grounding electrode. This will keep all ground connections in the panel in one place, the neutral bar. I would recommend simply installing the GFCI recepts with the labels attached to each cover.

Keep in mind you can bond to the water line all day long but it wont serve any purpose unless it is bonded to the neutral in the panel.

If he is connecting to a water line that is LEGAL to use for this it had better already be bonded to the rest of the grounding system. The neutral had already better been connected to the grounding system at the appropriate point as well.

Even then any grounds should be run back to the panel and not attached willy nilly to any water line, ground rod or other grounding electrode.

Sorry, except for the willy nilly part, this is wrong. For retrofit installation of grounded receptacles, it is perfectly acceptable to connect to any point of the building grounding system (which can include ground rods that are part of that system, metal water within ten feet of their entrance from underground, ...). They specifically do not need to go tot he panel. Further the NEUTRAL BAR is the INCORRECT place in many instances to land grounding wires.

I would recommend simply installing the GFCI recepts with the labels attached to each cover.

Useful for occupant protection, sucks badly for surge supression, etc... Frankly I would run real grounds *AND* install GFCI's in places they would be required in modern installations by the code (kitchens, basements, garages, outside...).

Thanks for your input.

"Useful for occupant protection, sucks badly for surge supression, etc... Frankly I would run real grounds *AND* install GFCI's in places they would be required in modern installations by the code (kitchens, basements, garages, outside...). ""

Is it inexpensive to run 'real ground?' The house is 2 story and with plaster walls, so nothing is easy behind the wall.

Since I have access to the 2 outlets that I would like to make 3 prong --- I thought I could run a copper/green from the NEW outlets through the floor opening and attach to the water line ( which is underground and has been there for over 60 years.)
Whether the panel is grounded to a rod outside, I have no way of knowing this.

I was told that a GFCI for the frig outlet wouldn't be wise, ditto a gfci on the sump pump.

Generally, anything with a motor that cycles on and off isn't a good fit with a GFCI. The start up can sometimes trip the GFCI. You won't notice the power is off until the fridge gets warm. In some instances, like a hot tub, the extra safety is worth the occasional trip.

The main thing to remember about retro-fitting grounds, GFCI's, and any other safety devices into an older electrical system is that you have to clearly indicate whether your new components are operating up to current specs. A new GFCI is expected to be grounded. If it is not grounded, you need to have it clearly labeled. Also, any grounds you install need to be bare copper or green so that it is obvious they are acting as grounds.

For costs, it is quite expensive to rewire a home - especially multi-story, older homes. That is probably why your electrician recommended prioritizing the "important" outlets. It isn't as good as having everything grounded, but it is better than having nothing grounded. Proper grounding and GFCI's are safety features, so it would really be up to you as to how much you are willing to spend to get your home up to current safety standards.

A new GFCI is expected to be grounded. If it is not grounded, you need to have it clearly labeled. Also, any grounds you install need to be bare copper or green so that it is obvious they are acting as grounds.
Actually, anything with the third grounding pin is expected to actually be connected to a ground. The exception is that if there is GFCI protection you can mark that pin as not providing any ground (ON EACH RECEPTACLE).

ME: "Keep in mind you can bond to the water line all day long but it wont serve any purpose unless it is bonded to the neutral in the panel."

ronnatalie: "If he is connecting to a water line that is LEGAL to use for this it had better already be bonded to the rest of the grounding system. The neutral had already better been connected to the grounding system at the appropriate point as well."

Do you realize you said the exact same thing I said except with different words. But thanks for the put down.

"Frankly I would run real grounds"

To where? The panel maybe? That is exactly what I recommended when I said:
"Even then any grounds should be run back to the panel and not attached willy nilly to any water line, ground rod or other grounding electrode."

But again, thanks for shooting me down.

To which you said:

"Sorry, except for the willy nilly part, this is wrong."

"this is wrong" Well thanks again for that.

Well sorry but just because someone has different preferences than you when solving a specific problem does not make them wrong. Maybe in your eyes. Hopefully you are not one of those "It's my way or the high way" guys. There are more than one way to do everything. Your way isn't the only way believe me.

Also, as far as:

"Further the NEUTRAL BAR is the INCORRECT place in many instances to land grounding wires."

If YOUR OWN statement is true: "The neutral had already better been connected to the grounding system at the appropriate point as well."

That statement in itself makes the neutral bar the point of bond to the grounding electrode system (there can only be one) and thus the ONLY place in the panel to land any new e.g.c. because there is most likely no separate ground bar since there are no existing grounding conductors in the system.

So please, next time leave the instruction to helping the OP and your soap box in the closet.

I'll stop posting if you stop posting incorrect and dangerous information.

The comment to "real grounds" was in contrast to just using a GFCI to provide 3-pin outlets. It's legal and safe, but less desirable because surge protectors work better with a ground. The NEC is unconcerned if your TV or computer dies from surge, just that nothing catches fire or shocks a occupant.

You seem highly confused between the structure grounding system (which is NOT just the water pipe, but is a certain location of water pipe, as well as grounding rods), the equipment grounding conductors, the grounded circuit conductors, the metal that's required to be bonded to the ground and JUST wher those are required to be connected together and where they are not required to be connected together.

Any old water pipe is invalid place to ground to.
Certain water pipes are legal.

The NEUTRAL bar is only legal in certain specific instances. Otherwise, even though it is ultimately grounded, it is not legal to provide equipment grounding connections.

My original post to the OP was correct and safe.
Your subsequent response was incorrect and unsafe.

"The NEUTRAL bar is only legal in certain specific instances. Otherwise, even though it is ultimately grounded, it is not legal to provide equipment grounding connections."

To use your own words, you are "wrong".
Unless there is a separate ground bar in the panel that is properly connected to the neutral bar with a proper sized bonding jumper, it is the ONLY place in the panel to land a egc. THE ONLY PLACE. Do you get it now? The entire reason to bond the neutral to the ground rod and water line (within 10' from wher it enters the building) is to provide a path for fault current back to the neutral (xo in a transformer, or the "bullseye" as some refer to it)

So you are saying that in the situation of the OP, equipment grounding conductors ARE NOT to be ran to the neutral bar in the panel? That's quite amusing to me. If one was to run a new 12-2 nm cable for a new circuit would you then just NOT land the egc of that nm cable in the panel on the neutral bar which is bonded to the ground rod and water line? What then would you do with it? Think about it. Of course you would land it on the neutral bar in the panel. That is where it goes, of course if there was a ground bar secured to the panel tub and bonded to the neutral bar then all grounds should be on the ground bar and all neutrals on the neutral bar and there shall be only one point of connection between them in the panel, by a properly sized bonding jumper. But thanks for once again trying to make be look bad for some reason, just to make yourself feel smarter I guess.

"Your subsequent response was incorrect and unsafe."
Sorry, you're wrong again.
My ingormation is just different than yours, and in compliance with the NEC. Man you are quite the "high and mighty" type aren't you?

I'm done with this thread because I actually have more important things to tend to than trying to calm an electrical egomaniac. Go ahead and cut others down to your hearts content but I'll not give you the satisfaction of wasting any more of my time.

Good luck to the OP.

"Unless there is a separate ground bar"... By your own admission "the neutral bar is not ALWAYS a legal place to land equipment grounds." However, this even isn't ACCURATE enough. The only time the neutral bar is legal, is when it is legally also the grounding bar. The only time this is legal is when the panel is also serving as the main disconnect.

Why this is important. Let's look at the original poster's situation. He's got an older house. He has no grounded circuits. This is what started his question. Therefore, it's quite possible whatever is serving as his main panel is lacking a place for a proper ground. It's possible that it's an older fuse box. The main disconnect may be in a different box (or part of the meter base). You just can't go connecting the new grounds to the neutral bar in this situation.

The only "high and mighty" is when someone comes here shouting YOU'RE WRONG (which was you) and continues to drivel on with excuses as to why his original "correction" statement was right, when it was wrong and dangerous.

You seem to not understand that the fact that the NEUTRAL bar is bonded to the grounding system does not universally make it legal to use as a connection for equipment grounds.

Go back to your job at Home Depot.

I wasn't planning an online fight. It wasn't a ? about who has the biggest..........

The house has circuit breakers, not fuses.

Someone added an outlet (for my late folk's gas dryer) and the ground wire is taped to the cold water pipe nearby ????

So, can I ground the frig outlet by running a ground to the cold water pipe coming in, BEFORE the meter?

So, can I ground the frig outlet by running a ground to the cold water pipe coming in, BEFORE the meter?

ONLY if the service panel also has a grounding connection within 5' of the metal water line entrance.

FWIW, I like the occasional online bickering... keeps things from getting boring.

Normel -- I understand that post.
RE: FWIW. Is the second W for Wise_ss?

Thanks Joe

ronnatalie - "The only "high and mighty" is when someone comes here shouting YOU'RE WRONG (which was you) and continues to drivel on with excuses as to why his original "correction" statement was right, when it was wrong and dangerous."

He he he. Still laughing about this one. Because in your post immediately after my first YOU stated.

"this is wrong"

I can understand how you would want to say it was me, since in my last post I did say the same thing but had the courtesy to quote you when saying it. What I did say is "To use your own words, you are "wrong". " Then I re stated it again later in the same post. But if you want to say I started off by attacking you or your post you had better read the ENTIRE post again. But thanks for trying to save face, even though there is no need. Wanting to do things differently than someone else is just the way it goes, but forcing your personal views on an installation is only limited to your apprentice, not me, and not the OP. So sorry.
I just hope I never have to come in after you on a job and make my way through all of the "ground wires hanging all over the place clamped, taped or tied (however you hacks do it) to anything metal in the crawl or basement and call it a ground. I'll just keep taking mine back to the panel (point of neutral to ground bond) and land my egc there, that's right, on the actual bar in the panel, what a novel idea. I'd recommend it to you to try but I'm sure you'll find some reason not to , what ever floats your boat. I'm sure you'll get on here again spouting off at the keyboard about some other nonsense about how I have personally attacked you, so be it. Anyone who reads this thread (maybe even you............well maybe not) will see who chimed in (post #4 like I really needed to poinT that out) and tried to sentence by sentence pick apart a thread that had no WRONG or DANGEROUS information in it to begin with.

You're making nonsensical statements that I never said.
You're backtracking on your original incorrect statement. You didn't say "point where the ground and neutrals are bonded together" you said "the neutral bar." My correction is and still is that is dangerously incomplete answer.

I'm done listening to your rude excuses. Hopefully, your professional work is better than your abilty to communicate on the forums.

Good day.

""So, can I ground the frig outlet by running a ground to the cold water pipe coming in, BEFORE the meter?

ONLY if the service panel also has a grounding connection within 5' of the metal water line entrance. ""

GREAT NEWS -- the panel is grounded w/i the 5 feet so I ground the frig outlet.

PEACE and thanks to all