It sounds like a fairly good system, but I have one question.

Let's say it is a Saturday, all the kids are home, and one of them is misbehaving and gets to a red card by 10 AM.

How will this be handled? You can't very well put a child in their room all day long. (at least IMO...I think that would be too much.)

Is there another consequence that could be assigned if a child gets to a red car? Maybe loss of computer/tv priviliges? Loss of allowance? Extra chores?

I think the card systemt seems more appropriate for 4 year old than 10, and using the same system for both may be humiliating to 10 year old. I would put it away for now. I would talk to 10 year old and try to figure out what chores are fair -- get input from her.

What do mean by referring fights? I assume arguing not physical fights. YOu gave the 10 year old a card for wanting to make pudding? It seems to me that you are exercising the same control over the 10 as the 4 -- the 10 should have more ability to make her own decisisons. Maybe you should have just said, no pudding tonight.

kkny-you are right these are not physical fights, they are arguments that end up with both yelling at each other and tantrums between the two.....
maybe should have been more clear on the pudding incident..it started because of pudding...kiddo was told no and threw a tantrum stomping and talking back...card was for the tantrum and talking back not the pudding......
as far as chores go..each is responisble for two chores per day...and I let them pick between a few chores to give them some input into the decision. They are small 5 min chores like feed the hampster, sweep the kitchen floor etc... not major chores to me at least...
any input on other systems that are effective w/ 10 year olds? I get that 10's should be more responsible and have greater choices in things than a 4..but when I leave things up to 10yr old like yesterday...nothing productive happens ..like staying in front of the tv all day, not bathing or changing clothes....10 yr old can throw a better tantrum than most younger kids I know...so I am not sure what other methods will be effective..any thoughts? I need something that will help them learn work through their fights/arguments.

What is the issue with bath? This is strange. Does 10year old want to stay up later, and sometime bath time never fits in? I think my DD at that age took showers (not certain if that should make a difference).

Bath- I was trying to give more responsibility since she is 10 now. Told her she knows she needs to bathe everyday as she is getting older and that it was her responsibility to get one..(we weren't going to tell her to go take one anymore...) I know at that age I was in charge of making sure I got my own bath,brushed teeth changed undies etc...,.....well she hasn't changed from the clothes she was in or taken a bath since tuesday when we discussed her taking on this responsibility....I really want to step in and tell her to go take one.....on the other hand it is summer and we don't have plans for the week so maybe I should ride it out and see if she does get it that she needs to do those things...i just don't know....maybe I am expecting too much

At ten, several of my kids also had to be nagged to take a bath. Its a self correcting problem, time will cure it. As they head into puberty , the other kids will make sure they have a bath, and once they start noticing the opposite gender, you cant get them OUT of the bath. I wouldnt fuss on that part too much.

One thing that worked for us, with the older/younger child squabbles, is to not overreact when they fight, but to find times when they arent fighting, and comment positively about it. SOmetimes kids will set each other off . For example, when my SD was about ten, and my SS was 6, SD would make faces or take something of SS's, and SS would get angry and yell or hit. Then SD would innocently say, DAdddyyyyyy he is bothering me.

IT can be a game, each kid actually trying to get the other kid to start something, so that they get in trouble.

When you dont over react and dont accept what is happening at face value, then the payoff of getting sibling in trouble is lost.

If you have to stop a fight in progress, both of them need a few minutes in their rooms. Dont try to pick who started it and only send them, send them both. Dont get mad, just stay calm and say something like, everyone needs to go to their own space and cool off and we can talk about what happened later.

THen, when they are being nice and playing well together, out of the blue, compliment them on how nicely they are being together. Most kids in the 4 year old range dont care, but the 10 year old will be very proud of herself that you complimented her. Kids that age suck up praise. Dont mention the fighting, mention the positive stuff. Sometime when its just you and the 10 year old, draw her into a conversation about how you KNOW little kids can be so silly sometimes and it makes you very proud of her when she acts mature with her little brother.

Kids of 10 want to be seen as mature, and they really want your good opinion.

It will take some time and consistency, but it is not that hard to turn around the fighting dynamic.

I definitely think she needs to bathe every day.

I would suggest telling her that she has from the time she wakes up until 8 pm every night to take a bath--within that time frame, it is her choice as to when she takes one (or showers--whatever.) If, by 8 pm, she has chosen not to, then you will step in and say that she must do it then, regardless of what activity/tv show/computer game/book you might be interrupting.

A lot of kids at that age really dislike being told "what to do" but still don't have the maturity level to make the appropriate decisions. This way, you are giving her the opportunity to make her own choice----but you are still reserving the right to decide for her, if she does NOT take responsibility.

My guess is she will start doing it herself.

Bath/Shower... who cares? At the very least, I would think all kids need to change into sleep clothes. Does she sleep in her dirty clothes?? If mine did that, they'd be washing their sheets the next day. (more work for them... ) I just think that personal hygiene should NOT be negotiable. That's a matter of health.

I have an 11 year old (he just turned 11) and well there isnt a lot that can be done when you are dealing with the hard headed pre teen. I have a feeling that the not having a bath for a few days is more her exercising her power so to speak.... You gave her the out: it is her responsibility and you wont tell her... so she is showing you guys ... (in a way) it is my responsibility, my body if I choose not to do it then maybe that will show them... plus I know if I really dont take a shower they are just going to tell me to take one (even though they said they wont) I think I would play this one out... I would make a comment (but we are a jokey sarcastic family) man oh man something is ripe up in here... or just casually mention ... so I guess the plan is to just wear the clothes till they fall off... (there will be some response I am sure) but I would follow up with ... that is a relief for me new school clothes are expensive.

I do have a problem with and would not tolerate the snatching yelling etc especially towards a 4 year old (not that I would allow the four year old to do it) But the age difference would be a factor for me.... I'd be inclined to and have told my 10 year old (well 11) when he throws a fit or fights with one of his younger siblings especially the youngest ones... when you choose to act older I will be more than happy to treat you older... but when you are fighting with a (our case) 5 year old over a toy that shows me you still need to be treated like a five year old.

For us chores are written on the dry erase board at night and the rule is you need to be up dressed fed and chores done before you get games out watch tv or go outside. If this does not happen then you are grounded for the day. I told all of the kids... getting dressed doing you chores is part of growing up and being apart of a family so you can either choose to do what we ask or you can choose to spend the day in your room.. it is your choice. I always get up and give a reminder/warning... like I certainly hope that since you guys are playing the playstation that you are done with what you need to do... (everyone usually gets up and scatters to get what they need done)

Like Kathline suggested... I make a big deal with the kids when they are doing something nice ( for example my two girls who have been fighting all day suddenly decided that they were best friends again and older one was helping younger with her reading.. I made a special pit stop to say how nice it was that she was helping her and what a good job younger was doing reading) I tell 10 yr old all of the time when he is working well with the kids how happy I am and what a good older brother he is being... we have had a talk more than once about what being the oldest really means (helping being nice setting an example) I was the oldest in my family so he usually has a bunch of questions.

I think the trick is balancing independence and with the fact that they are really still kids... For 11 yr old he got an ipod at 10... a big deal was made that he is older now more responsible no else can touch it and no one else is getting one until they are get older. It shows him we are respecting that he is getting older and should be treated that way... but we still expect him to follow the rules

I have also done in desperate times...say 10 nice things to each other and I Care Language.

Nobody ever died from not having a daily bath or shower. As Kathline said, eventually they will actually want to shower frequently. I sometimes remind my 12 year old, but only because she tends to forget until she is about to go to bed, and she doesn't like to go straight from the shower to bed.

Well according to DSS if you fail to supervise your childs bathing habits you could be charged with neglect.

My SS10 told the interviewer that he hadn't showered in 4 days they told my hubby that he had to "make him" take a shower daily..... I disputed that and the interviewer argued the point that if they do not shower you have to "make" them ... I said you obviously do not have children you cannot make children do anything they don't want to do you can convince them otherwise but you cannot make them do it .... other than putting them physically in the shower you cannot make them ... and if he "Puts" them in the shower you will be here for abuse!!!

They closed that case.

Mom likes to call DSS a month before they go back to court for Child support modification to "prove" she is the better parent.

Should be coming any day now court is the end of next month

OP: I don't think you are asking too much of the kids. Hold firm to the new system and do not let things slide. If you say no extra TV time due to red card, then "that is it".

I would say stay with this for two weeks, and if you still have doubts, investigate another system called "Token Economy". I used this when working with eight 10 years old girls for about four months and it was very effective in rewarding good behaviors. The main trick is remember that tokens once earned are not taken away for bad behaviors. There's plenty of other ways to discipline kids.

I like the system and i think you should stick with it. BUt i also agree that maybe for the 10 year old it maybe too babyish...but i dont know. Not sure. But i think i would stick with it.
As for the bath , not taking one everyday wont hurt. And kids get distracted easily. I think it also depends on the personality.
My SD takes one at least every second day. She loves to be squeeky clean. Especially in the summers...that is when she's in the shower everyday.
My SS...lol...hehehe..he watches tv and plays his PS2...and really tends to forget about hygiene. We all take turns reminding him to bath and change clothing.
Wait for the shower ....and if she starts to smell, invite one of her friends over. Embarassing as it maybe , it will be a lesson learned. Happened to me when i was 10. didn't shower for days, didn't change my shirt or put antipersperant either. Well, my best friend came over and told me i smelled. Never forgot that day and i kept quite clean after that.:)

Wistful,

I hear you that the token system worked for a group of 10 year olds. I am still not certain if the same system can be used for a group of children with diverse ages. I know OP is trying hard, but I would also say as children become teens, you have to turn the other cheek at the rolled eyes and focus on bigger issues. best of luck.

"Nobody ever died from not having a daily bath or shower."

Can I point out that many plagues and epidemics through the centuries have been linked to poor hygiene?
While one child skipping bathing for a few days isn't likely to cause a statewide outbreak, it's still a little icky.
Also, not that this kid is a surgeon, but when physicians started washing properly, fewer patients died of infections.
Plenty of people have died from not bathing.

A__ is 9 and is a fairly physically mature 9yo (tall, stinky socks, etc). If he gets a sweat on that day, then he takes a shower or bath (his choice). So if he plays soccer or goes out for a big rollerblade or something else that gets him good and smelly, he bathes.
Otherwise, if he just has a normal day where he runs around at recess but doesn't have a huge physical workout, then he bathes every other day.

Urinary Tract Infections:
UTIs occur much more frequently in girls, particularly those around the age of toilet teaching, because a girl's urethra is shorter and closer to the anus. Uncircumcised boys younger than 1 year also have a slightly higher risk of developing a UTI.

Other risk factors for developing a UTI include:

* an abnormality in the structure or function of the urinary tract (for example, a malformed kidney or a blockage somewhere along the tract of normal urine flow)
* an abnormal backward flow (reflux) of urine from the bladder up the ureters and toward the kidneys. This condition, known as vesicoureteral reflux (VUR), is present at birth, and about 30% to 50% of children with a UTI are found to have it.
* poor toilet and hygiene habits
* the use of bubble baths or soaps that irritate the urethra
* family history of UTIs

Yeast Infections:
In most cases, yeast infections can be prevented by keeping the vaginal area clean and dry.

Jock Itch:
jock itch can usually be treated with over-the-counter antifungal creams and sprays.When using one of these, kids should:

* Wash and then dry the area using a clean towel.
* Apply the antifungal cream, powder, or spray as directed on the label.
* Change clothing, especially the underwear, every day.
* Continue this treatment for 2 weeks, even if symptoms disappear, to prevent the infection from recurring.

There are lots of adverse effects of poor hygiene, besides dying. Even though many of these are not 'caused' by not bathing, it can worsen a problem that is already there if you don't properly clean. (besides having a stinky kid) There are many other conditions that can be prevented (or part of treatment is )by keeping clean.

If parents of a newborn or infant didn't bathe their child, they would be neglectful parents. As kids get older, they get dirtier and teaching them good hygiene is the parent's responsibility. Skipping a day is probably not a big deal, but several days can be. Especially school aged kids that are in contact with other kids that pass along more germs. Who would let their kid go days without brushing teeth? or washing hands after using the toilet?

I totally agree with everything Imamommy just posted.

I agree, skipping a day here and there isn't harmful in and of itself. But I think what parents should strive to do is instill good habits in their children, and proper hygiene should certainly be one of those habits.

I have been a little more lax with my DD this summer simply because we've been at the pool A LOT--so she has been taking a bath about 5 days a week, rather than 7.

But during the school year, she comes home from school sweaty from playing HARD at recess and gym, and a bath is non-negotiable in the evening.

Hygeine aside, both DD and STBSS take a bath every evening during the school year; it's part of our nighttime routine and it calms them down and readies them for bed. So we always insist on a long, hot, relaxing bath in the evenings for them.

i'm sure that will change as they get older--but even now, I personally love to wind down in the evening with a long, hot shower.

I completely agree that bathing everyday is very important, I was really trying to chew over how long I should bite my tongue about it...problem solved though she took a shower last night hoooooorayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Not sure what motivated her, she just said she was going to take a shower last night and came out sqweaky clean!! I just gave her a big hug and told her how proud I was that she took one and how good she smelled! and gave a gentle reminder about how important it is to take one everyday...I am glad I held out on saying anything, I am just gonna keep an eye on things everyday. Obviously waiting three days to take a shower especially in the summer is not an option so we will wait and see if she takes one tonight. She also woke up this morning all about trying to keep her card at green for the day...what a big change! and it actually is still Green!! I am thinking maybe she needed a few days to sulk and get it that this is the way things are now....I feel happy that today I can say I haven't had to break up any fights, there has been no yelling between the siblings and my home has been nice and calm today.This is a big improvement for us!! I am going to keep my fingers crossed!
You guys all had great advice and I really appreciate all of the imput!!

"I am thinking maybe she needed a few days to sulk and get it that this is the way things are now..."

You might be onto something with that theory!
A__ does that everytime something new happens.
When we first developed the Rules, he responded quite poorly when we asked if he was following the rules and what he could do differently to be following them, but after a few days he got used to it and reacts well to it now.

So I'm glad it's been a good day!

When my daughter was nine or ten, my daughter's doctor recommended that she bathe about once a week in the winter, because she has extremely dry skin. He described at length the health dangers of dry skin, since dry, cracked skin does not provide an effective barrier to infection.

According to this site, children with dry skin should bathe about twice a week, without soap:

http://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/HealthAZ/Dry-Skin.aspx?articleID=8550&categoryID=

There is really no reason for a child to bathe every day unless they get really sweaty or dirty. That has nothing to do with how often they wash their hands.